Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[rgdaniel]

Somebody mentioned, a few million pages ago, that Codemeter offered USB stick dongles that work with Reason... couldn't quickly see reference to that on their website. Does anybody have this, or have more details? Thanks.

[MrFigg]

Always said I’d be 10 to the end. Looks like we’ve got there.

[Auryn]

how to do subscriptions if you actually care about people with little money

sub.jpg (120.94 KiB) Viewed 3109 times

if this were the stated policy, I'd be happy to sign up for a paid membership

[lrey]

Here's my Pros and Cons assessment of Reason+

Pros:
- You have the most up-to-date version of Reason
- Weekly sample packs
- Good for new users
- You're supporting the RS company //Let's be honest, they'll make a boatload of money if lots of people subscribe to Reason+
- More money leads to more resources and staff
- More resources and staff will hopefully lead to more significant updates/upgrades and other developments //The keyword here is "hopefully"
- Hopefully, they can finally update Reason Compact and other "old" software //smh
- R+ offers instruments/effects racks that's not on other DAWs
- R+ will hopefully make producing music more fun, inspiring and just an overall great experience

Cons:
- It's subscription-based, not "rent-to-own" //RS wants the money to keep flowing into their back accounts... milking us dry
- Since this isn't "rent-to-own", if/when you ever to decide to cancel R+, you essentially won't be able to open your old projects //This IS a serious topic, folks
- Price: $20/month //This is just heartless, especially during this pandemic and terrible worldwide economy
- Not a great deal, by any means, for current and loyal users who already have perpetual licenses and a ton of REs
- Average cost per perpetual license upgrade VS Reason+ pricing doesn't jive well if you do the math (Assuming one has a decent amount of already purchased REs)
- This IS a money grab. Pure and simple.
- 50% off "1st year" for customers who already own a copy of Reason //This is just insulting
- There's NO guarantee that they will keep the perpetual license model going //If Reason+ does really well, it takes no genius to realize that they will eventually phase out perpetual licenses in future versions of Reason. Just look at Adobe. AFAIK, they do no sell perpetual licenses for their main software titles anymore
- Weekly sample packs //Listed as a Pro, not many people really care for this
- Internet login only, no more codemeter usb
- Compared to other DAWs, the R+ DAW is definitely behind times
- Reason Studios' priorities are misplaced // Weekly Sample Packs > Long-awaited DAW features... Releasing RRP as opposed to working on DAW features
- There's no telling how often Reason DAW will be updated(esp. for much-needed DAW features) //We know their track record. Hasn't been good
- I feel that RE developers are left in the lurch //Please correct me if I'm wrong on this
- R+ is from a company with no roadmap and no transparency //With each new release, we have no friggin' clue what will be added feature-wise. It's "their way" or the highway
- R+ is from a company that has a disconnect with its customers/userbase //This is a big one. They're notoriously known for not listening to their customers. Other companies go out of their way to get feedback from their customers. Whether it's FB pages, Forums, Surveys, etc. I remember when Props even had their own forum and shuttered it. Other music companies have official forums on their websites to get feedback from their users(thank goodness for Reasontalk). It's like they don't want to listen to us. Seriously.

Please let me know in the comments below if I omitted anything.

[Crumbfort]

• RS releases the 11.3.7 update on Monday to generate hype. Who would be hyped? Existing users of course, since they would primarily be the ones who would see the updated preferences pane.

• RS releases a short video clip declaring that all questions would be answered in two days. Existing users, by and large, have been hoping for improvements to the core program. So naturally those users hoped the coming announcement would bring word of long-awaited features.

• Users tune in to the livestream only to find an announcement about a subscription plan, followed by the team excitedly talking about jingles, Zamboni's and labor unionization.

• RS changes their website to obscure links to the Shop and the option to buy a perpetual license.

Yeah, I don't think it had to go down like that. I don't think angry users are to be blamed for misunderstanding anything. I think a far better scenario would have been 3 months from now, to say "Here's Reason 12! We've worked hard to implement the features you've asked for. And now you have two ways to pay: If you like to buy your license as usual, please do so! But you can alternatively subscribe for $20/month if you want."

Spot on! Great post.

[EnochLight]

Actually, I believe JP clearly stated his point concerning competition but it disappeared from your quote. Concerning Reason Pus subscribers buying REs, nah, not in the foreseeable future. According to their own website Reason Pus FAQ, they cannot buy REs OR ReFills as of now, but that will be possible "at some point".

Screenshot 2021-01-28 at 20.31.40.png

Your screenshot clearly says "at some point soon". How do you extrapolate "not in the foreseeable future" from that?

[guitfnky]

Actually, I believe JP clearly stated his point concerning competition but it disappeared from your quote. Concerning Reason Pus subscribers buying REs, nah, not in the foreseeable future. According to their own website Reason Pus FAQ, they cannot buy REs OR ReFills as of now, but that will be possible "at some point".

Screenshot 2021-01-28 at 20.31.40.png

Your screenshot clearly says "at some point soon". How do you extrapolate "not in the foreseeable future" from that?

man, you must really love carrying water...

[EnochLight]

You've misread entirely. His point was that RS is indeed competition for third-party devs, but that it doesn't go both ways, as third-party devs are entirely at RS's mercy.

Being at RS's mercy doesn't make them no less of a competitor, IMHO. I get that RS makes the RE SDK and gets a cut of 3rd party sales, but again - that doesn't remove them from being competition.

man, you must really love carrying water...

Pfffftttt... I wish it was as simple as that.

[MaMue]

It feels like there is some kind of communication lack between the Reason bosses and the users. I have to say sorry, if some words sound a bit to offense from a lot of people here, reason is really great and we are all just human. It would be just great if you in the decision making positions listen more to the fanbase to close the communication gap, that exists here nowdays. In the video all was very distanced, no Reason-Vibe was in the air, and in the comments there was way too much hate and anger. So lets start a new beginning with reason 12 and hope, that everything will get fine - for the management, the workers and for the customers.

I feel the big need for a new kind of communication era between RS and the users. As it is now, its way too distanced and cold.

Cheers

[helmutson]

I've read every single post in this thread and it's time to throw my (long) 2 cents in.

First of all, great to see more members of Reason Studios's staff popping in. Welcome, hope you have the thick skin to stick around despite all the negativity, some of which is fair and some of which is blatantly unfair. We need you here, the lack of communication from your company has been and still is a problem, more on that later.

Mods, I respect every single one of you for your patience, reflections and obvious Reason knowledge, but your one-sidedness in defending RS no matter what is starting to make it look like you're on the payroll. Correcting baseless accusations and factual errors is of course appreciated, but constantly trying to play down legitimate concerns from a large portion of the user base is not.

The Reason+ launch was about as bad as expected. For us "Reason whales" (a good term coined earlier in this thread I believe) who already have all we need except core DAW improvements, of course the announcement is a disappointment. But it didn't have to be like that, did it?
Launching this service so late in a release cycle when existing users are thirsting for updates is the absolute worst possible timing. Had Reason+ been launched alongside a Reason12 with say VST3 support and improved graphics, this wouldn't have been a problem. Had it been launched slightly after Reason12, there wouldn't have been a problem. Had the website shown Reason12 "normal license" alongside Reason+ on equal footing, there wouldn't have been a problem. In fact I would have felt pretty good about the fact that we could get more Reason users on board, which is good for the company and good for us as users. I would also feel that the discounted Reason suite I picked up earlier was a pretty sweet deal, making the subscription pretty irrelevant for me at least short-term.
However, launching it now, without (in typical RS style) showing off even a glimpse of the new features to come, and making the product website appear like Reason+ is the only option on the table, AND removing the option to buy entry-level versions of the software, AND alienating 3rd party devs by effectively making their products virtually invisible and possibly irrelevant, of course it's going to provoke people. If your management can't see this, well frankly they're amateurs.

Verdane capital, I suspect you had no clue what kind of company you bought did you? I imagine you probably thought you could make some quick strategy changes and turn the company into a very appealing SaaS-company, lifting the valuation considerably before selling the company on or floating it on the stock exchange. It's not hard to find investment capital for SaaS-companies these days, not hard at all, even at ridiculous valuations. But Propellerheads wasn't a SaaS-company was it? Reason isn't accounting software that can be run perfectly in a web browser. Performance-critical and hardware-dependent desktop software like this doesn't really work like that. Nor is Reason like Netflix. It's not Spotify. Soundpacks are not movies or songs that people consume en masse and then mostly forget.
If you DO want to function like a SaaS-company, you'd better get a heck of a lot better at listening to your users and providing predictable roadmaps for the future. And that brings me on to my next point:

What kind of company does RS want to be? Propellerhead software had unique products for its time along with a certain cool and a CEO who didn't seem like he only cared about money. This coolness, and the name, appealed to a certain kind of people who felt at home slightly outside the mainstream. This helped create a great community that drew in brilliant individuals who made lots of tutorials, refills and (later) Rack Extensions which in turn helped the company grow. In this sceario, the company can thrive even while being quite secretive and - well - weird as long as the community is encouraged and helped along (i.e. given tools and exposure).
With the name change, company sale and CEO replacement (to be fair, it probably started even before all this with the PUF forum closure which was an enormous mistake) we are clearly not going in that direction anymore. That's OK, that could certainly work for me as a customer. But then you need to be a different kind of company, one that caters more to the mass market and exceeds quarterly revenue goals. Being that company is hard, and the employees working there need to get their heads out of their behinds and realise they aren't all that cool anymore and that working there is actually a real job. Users have expectations, and those expectations need to be met if you want them to pay for your products. Before investing in your software, they need to know that their investment is future proof. They need roadmaps, they need feature previews, and they need you to take their god damn feature requests seriously instead of working on all sorts of other crap. Yes, I know there are different teams but fringe teams must be managed and paid too.
So what's it gonna be? You can't be both, it doesn't work that way.

brilliant !

[plesio]

I would like to share some thoughts with you regarding REASON+ and costs.

When I saw the poll on REASON+ I immediately voted for "NO" and saw 90% agreement with some satisfaction.
But now I think that was a very emotional response from me, so not much guided by rational thought.

I took a look at my account and the costs for the last 5 years.
I started with R8 and paid 636€ for updates until today. (this number is not 100% certain)
For REs from RS I paid another 726€.

I am someone who has to have great things in REASON immediately !
Unthinkable for me is to wait months for something like "Complex" until Black Friday. Try and buy within 24 hours instead.
That makes 1362€ in 5 years or 272€ a year.

You know what I mean. My next vote will probably be different.

This is not an advertisement, but I wanted to put emotion against consideration for once.
And the REASON+ concept arouses a lot of emotion here.

...this is of course only an opinion and maybe I missed someting to consider here...

[ShelLuser]

You've misread entirely. His point was that RS is indeed competition for third-party devs, but that it doesn't go both ways, as third-party devs are entirely at RS's mercy.

Being at RS's mercy doesn't make them no less of a competitor, IMHO.

Then this discussion has become pointless. Can't discuss opinions, only facts.

Seriously though: how can you compete with someone who can wipe you out "just like that" when they feel like it? How do you imagine them "outdoing" the main market?

Reason I ask: competition also implies domination. There's a good reason why anti-monopoly laws are in effect, because too much dominance would create an unfair balance. Of course that's in an open market with equal competitors.

How do you imagine an RE developer to be equal to Reason Studios? Because that's what it's boiling down to: if they compete - according to you - then they also have an option to become dominant. So how do you see that working out?

[EdwardKiy]

Arrant, Timmy Crowne and Jiggery-Pokery's 3 posts sum it all up nicely, I think.

[fieldframe]

If you are only a subscriber what would be the point in 'buying' an RE? Surely if you stopped subscribing you would have no way to use the RE. I expect they will offer REs as add-ons to the sub package eg. pay an extra 5 $/€/£ per month to use your choice of 3 REs or whatever. Giving subscribers permanent licenses for something that will be useless if subscription stops seems pointless, and they get to make more money this way as well. Add-ons will happen. No doubt about it. They already were halfway there with the RE package rent to own thing.

This is an important point!

Seen in this light, I think there's an argument to be made that Reason+ subscribers who don't have a Reason license shouldn't be able to buy REs since they'll lose access to them whenever their subscription lapses.

What should be an option, however, is for subscribers to add subscription RE bundles to their Reason+ subscription. So $20/mo gets you Reason and the first-party REs, $30/mo includes the $10/mo tier of RE bundling, $40/mo includes the $20/mo tier, and so on.

It's such an obvious choice that I'm kind of astonished it not only isn't possible, but that no mention was made of it being a planned feature.

[EnochLight]

I think it's the opposite.

You're welcome to think what you want.

Then you've been missing out.

Am I? How do you know what I need or want in my productions? I can clearly tell you that none of his devices appealed to me. I always trial before I buy. I didn't buy. It wasn't out of malice. I just found what I needed inside Reason.

And that's the main point here: opinions, everyone has them. Just because you don't value their RE's and I do doesn't change anything!

This is the one thing we can agree on - everyone has opinions.

The thing you're missing is that Reason Studios control the RE market. If they think an RE developer is entering or threatening their revenue then they reserve the right to kick them out. Oh wait, I worded that wrong

If they think that an RE developer is violating their code of conduct then they reserve the right to kick them out. Don't forget that they're selling a service, but just because you bought into it doesn't give you any guaranteed rights to your spot.

How is that (a fair) competition?

There is none! Because in the end Reason Studios always wins.

Has Jiggery Pokery been kicked out as a dev? Has any of his devices submitted been declined because there's already an RE for that by Reason Studios? Has any dev had their RE submission rejected solely because Reason Studios already has one or is planning one?

I never said the competition was fair, BTW. Obviously RS has an edge. My entire point is: a Reason+ subscription service option does not change things for third party devs just because it comes with a bunch of RE's (assuming they eventually do add the ability for R+ subs to purchase third party RE's, as I understand - according to the FAQ pointed out to me will be soon).

Look, I get it's easy to come at me as an unwavering Reason Studios/Reason supporter. I'll be the first to admit - I've been aboard for 20 years and I love the software. But do NOT mistake my opinion on some matters as the same as being 100% satisfied - as I have a metric s hit ton of complaints that I want addressed and I find it maddening that we still don't have a boatload of (currently missing) features in Reason standalone DAW, let alone RRP. I often question RS choices, and things never - EVER - happen fast or frequent enough. But I'm not the sort of person that airs my grievances in public forums with mob mentality in an echo chamber. I send my b it c hin g straight to their inboxes.

Oh well, time for me to pick up that glass of water and exit the room. Got shit to do.

[EdwardKiy]

Being at RS's mercy doesn't make them no less of a competitor, IMHO. I get that RS makes the RE SDK and gets a cut of 3rd party sales, but again - that doesn't remove them from being competition.

So you think that if you work to produce something, sell it and give half of your profit to the market owner, you are his competitor, correct?

[froggo_gfx]

I literally have zero interest into the "why" or the "how" the announcement of an optional sub service was handled, but I do have to ask you: if this optional service does bring more (read: new) customers into the Reason ecosystem, wouldn't that increase your chances of your RE's getting seen and possibly bought? As far as I know, R+ subscribers can still buy third part RE's, can't they? Bonus question: when Reason 11 appeared and the Reason Rack Plugin started making appearances in various other DAW, did this help funnel any more sales into your coffers? If not, then perhaps a sub service might. If it did, then perhaps a sub service may help. Just shooting spitballs, here...

Actually, I believe JP clearly stated his point concerning competition but it disappeared from your quote. Concerning Reason Pus subscribers buying REs, nah, not in the foreseeable future. According to their own website Reason Pus FAQ, they cannot buy REs OR ReFills as of now, but that will be possible "at some point".

Screenshot 2021-01-28 at 20.31.40.png

Wait, what? Not only they've presented this scheme before announcing v12, but service was actually unfinished? WHY? Were they in a hurry? Is this... is this a Cyberpunk situation? Should we worry?

[Luxuria]

The subscription model is perfect for them. They must have finally realized people were catching on the whole "skip a version buy the next one" and not spending $129 every big release. So instead of actually working on more frequent updates, they took the easy route and made a subscription model based on a bunch of phony excuses and lies. Look, there are what, at most 4-5 point updates each version and a new version of Reason every 1.5-2 years yet they made it seem like updates come out faster then we can keep up. You really aren't missing out on much when you don't update every time, especially these recent updates that have done nothing and even the patch notes don't say what they do anymore!

These weekly soundpacks are just going to be refills that never sold well. They aren't anymore impressive than what I was sound designing after 6 months of using Reason 4 back in the day.

It's like they are trying every possible method to get more cash flow without actually having to do any work. And judging by the RS lobby that we saw in the background of James's live-stream I'd say they are doing just fine financially.

Isn't it strange that every time a lackluster feature or version comes out they use the same rhetoric that "If we get more users onboard, then we can work on making the DAW better and provide more frequent updates." It's the same trick that's been brainwashed in people's heads and I feel sorry for the people who actually believe it.

And don't think Mattias isn't as crooked at the rest of them. He hasn't done shit for us old Reason users. Must be some crazy day to day work he's got that he can't step in and address this PR nightmare, NOT! Workflow features that were in 11 were half baked. How long's it been since the release of 11 and we haven't gotten a single additional workflow feature in the DAW. Hell, HiDPI should be a free 11 update. I encourage everyone to demand it!

Let's talk about resources. Yeah the team that builds RE's can't be expected to code features into the DAW to some extent, but then why didn't they hire more programmers for the DAW? They even said they hired James a year ago to get this subscription crap going. Instead they could have hired another programmer to code feature requests. So all you that are saying this doesn't hurt the core users in anyway are wrong! They could have even used that spot to address the ignition key issue!!!! But they don't care about that because it won't make them money and to hell with whoever has one, they already have your money! Get the hell out of here saying "USB ports are obsolete." What a bunch of crap.

[EnochLight]

So you think that if you work to produce something, sell it and give half of your profit to the market owner, you are his competitor, correct?

You think that two different companies that produce similar products selling to the same customer base aren't competitors, correct?

[EnochLight]

And don't think Mattias isn't as crooked at the rest of them. He hasn't done shit for us old Reason users.

Jesus, can we stop with this? Neither Mattias nor anyone at Reason Studios has a personal vendetta against us old Reason users, and calling them "crooked" is a pretty sad tactic. I get that you don't like the subscription option being offered, but christ - let's not make things personal, OK?

Thanks.

[Aosta]

Seen in this light, I think there's an argument to be made that Reason+ subscribers who don't have a Reason license shouldn't be able to buy REs since they'll lose access to them whenever their subscription lapses.

What should be an option, however, is for subscribers to add subscription RE bundles to their Reason+ subscription. So $20/mo gets you Reason and the first-party REs, $30/mo includes the $10/mo tier of RE bundling, $40/mo includes the $20/mo tier, and so on.

It's such an obvious choice that I'm kind of astonished it not only isn't possible, but that no mention was made of it being a planned feature.

Something like this could have eased the R+ announcement for devs and users but the powers that be decided to shoot their load too soon before ironing out all the kinks.

They should have worked with devs to incorporate their REs in the structure just like they should have sorted out the online access only issue but they are 'working on that' and 3rd REs will be available 'at some point'....

Smells like what game devs are doing now releasing unfinished games for the cash grab and then slowly patching it afterwards which sucks for players.

[helmutson]

Arrant, Timmy Crowne and Jiggery-Pokery's 3 posts sum it all up nicely, I think.

Jupp, that's right ... and I think that's it ! Reasonstudios is not Propellerheads,
it was never clearer than today ... but relax, the world keeps turning

[MrFigg]

I’m glad to see JP back. The truth will set you free .

[sprinkles__]

What should be an option, however, is for subscribers to add subscription RE bundles to their Reason+ subscription. So $20/mo gets you Reason and the first-party REs, $30/mo includes the $10/mo tier of RE bundling, $40/mo includes the $20/mo tier, and so on.

It's such an obvious choice that I'm kind of astonished it not only isn't possible, but that no mention was made of it being a planned feature.

It shows you how slack the level of mentation at Reason Studios (yuck, still leaves a bad taste) is. Want to sell people into your stupid rental ecosystem to expand your userbase downwards and outwards, ostensibly to get people on the ladder at a price they can afford? Offer tiers. Offering a one-time discount to existing users (who already have permanent, rent-free access to products they own) for something which will add little/no meaningful value, is just plain idiotic. It's a total cock-up this whole thing. They already had a perfectly serviceable system to allow people to 'rent' products from the shop. Just extend that into your sucker's market '+' product, and let the suckers rent more shit, it's business 101. For some reason (no pun intended!) the phrase 'lions led by donkeys' comes to mind...

BTW when i was dirt poor £20 a month or £200 a year would have been way out of my price range. I sometimes had less than £10 to survive on for a whole week. But i could have saved up for a few months and paid for an Intro license, had they been available back then, that would have felt OK i think, cos i would know it's mine, i won't lose it if next month i can't afford the £20 to keep the program running. It's the worst kind of grift to say this is meant to get people with less resources on board... It's a drain on limited resources, draining what little they have. And giving them literally thin air should they not be able to keep up the payments. Yeah. F_U Reason Studios. I know what you're up to.

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

One thing I'd like to draw attention to is how they snuck in the Companion software with no mention of it in their release notes. I didnt download it right away cause I wanted to see how this pans out, but I think omitting it to sneak their store into the product was a little shady.