Reason updates (11.3.7 / 11.3.8) and Reason+

[jamespember]

Your subscription also gives you major upgrades too. So Reason 12 is included with your subscription too. And then whatever updates and upgrades come after that.

Sad to hear you feel this way. Here to talk it out if you want

Thanks, appreciate the reply’s today. What I mean is that I feel the way it is painted with the marketing words. Always up to date. Like if you don’t subscribe it won’t be. Of course I can see you assure it will be and I believe that, but it’s the shady wording and tactics, it’s low and crap that everyone’s forced to compete like this.

It’s good to hear that you can still buy a licence outright, but the tactics from your marketing don’t fill me with confidence so I’ll be keeping 11 and calling it a day. Thanks again for responding today though. It’s good yous we’re prepared for the sadness with long term users.

All I can give you is my word (and Mattias and everyone elses) that we have no intention of being shady or dodgy. It's totally OK if you disagree with things and we WANT to hear that, but our intentions are only to provide value to everyone (both existing and potential customers).

[WasteLand]

just ran a couple of numbers out of curiosity...

-assume a new major version comes out every 1.5 years
-assume a standard $130 upgrade fee for existing users
-assume sound packs/refills isn’t a major selling point for most users

look at costs over 5 years...

Haha, hypothetical math! I love it! For fairness you're not assuming any hypothetical Rack Extenions, though, and we have released and will release more of those. But again, and this is worth reiterating since it was perhaps unclear, the normal perpetual license is not gone. You can still stay with that.

it is nót hypothetical math, it is practice (not praxis, but that is another thing..). and every RE isn't interesting for everybody.
you can buy still those RE's, in sale. the way to go, sale is what keeps this "domain" flowing... sale prices, i work with sale prices, never the full price (o well there are some developers that don't do sales, but i could get a discount...).

11 suite had enough interesting, players, effects and instruments to buy suite over full (or what is it called). upgrade i mean, the price difference was not that big..
in sale...

no regrets, it powered my use for reason & mainly third party RE's.. noise engineering (although they will come with VST versions also), for example.

i saw, this thread goes quite fast, and write slow, that 12 is coming later this year, as i expected, but it is the cubase way, implementing stuff, that should be implemented in 11. not all things, i mean scaling. scaling that is what i miss. will i buy 12 for it? no, perhaps in sale.

and for suite owners, yes they have the advantage of owning a lot of RE's, out of the blue (not all, or many perhaps..), and not all were interesting for me, the layers stuff, strangely i used them.

i agree reason is great for sounddesign. so soundpacks, i will never buy. i downloaded only the main stuff of sounds, of course drumkits. but making my own drums, makes my use almost no drumcomputers (ITB). yes, make them with reason!

perhaps a bigger statement on the website.

and, please, the Rewards are really a joke, the instruments/etc you can buy, are cheaper in sale...

and: you can be critical about something you really like, and i like reason 11 suite. (and i have 4 other 'major' DAW's.)

[jamespember]

And we think Reason's BIG superpower, compared to say, Splice or Arcade is that Reason is a sound design machine.

I suspect most users who love Reason would disagree, and would say its BIG superpower is that it’s an INSPIRATION machine.

having lots of sounds and devices sure plays a part in that, but at the end of the day, I think what we love most is that Reason is intuitive and only as complicated as you need it to be (sometimes it could stand to be slightly more so, given missing basic features, but you get my drift). it stays out of your way until you need it. that’s what makes Reason really special, IMO.

I think we're saying the same thing here to be honest. Reason is indeed the best DAW (or plugin) to be creative in, and to get ideas going. Sound Packs in Reason+ is just an extension of that. More content, more ideas, more creativity.

[froggo_gfx]

Also I don’t understand to whom this service is being marketed for. Clearly Reason struggles to reach new audiences, but are RRP and now this subscription enough to compete with other platforms? With absolutely zero new content?

Quirkiness and author’s touch on familiar devices were always strongest side of Reason at least for me (a user since v5). ReasonStudios have amazing concepts (Players, visual cable patching) and technologies (Physical modelling engines, Pitch Adjustment) on their hands, why not bet on them and make at least couple new devices before announcing subscription service? Why not present some transparent development goals at least, to show why somebody who already seen all of what’s included in subscription should become a subscriber.

Reason has struggled of recent times to break out of our niche. We have a very loyal and engaged audience (this thread is evidence of that), but we have struggled to attract new users. There are a variety of reasons for that (which we can go into at another time) but one of the things we think is really holding Reason back is the way we talk about it. Making music isn't about the gear. And we think we've talked too much about the gear in our marketing. Reason+ is an attempt to look up a little, and realise that making music is about being creative and expressing yourself. We think that by broadening our communications, we can reach and influence more people than ever before.

And we think Reason's BIG superpower, compared to say, Splice or Arcade is that Reason is a sound design machine. The best music has always been unique, and we think Reason can give a music maker the tools to sound unique, hence Sound Like You.

Perhaps my "marketing" hat is sitting a little too tight, but I do believe this and think Reason+ can vastly expand the number of Reason users out there. And that can ONLY be a good thing for you all, the hardcore fans who want us to invest more in the core product.

See, here’s the problem in my opinion: Subscription ISN’T for your loyal customers, but it’s marketed as if it is for some reason. Why your front page is all about Reason+ and why Store is buried so deep now? Why weren’t RE developers notified about all this? (?!?!?!?) Who’s Ryan for those who only planning their first DAW purchase? Why would any newcomer want a sequencer without track folders? etc
To be clear: I’m not critiquing the service itself, just pointing out that it’s presentation is a bit... weird. See for yourself: you’re not taking away anything, yet reception of Reason+ is overwhelmingly negative.

Reason and Reason Community always had a... err... a personal touch if it’s correct thing to say, and now it plays against you as people feel neglected while ReasonStudios acts like just another corporate entity. That’s what I meant when mentioned clear communication and stating your goals.

[nickb523]

I'm genuinely concerned about the future of RE's and ReFills. Why has the shop front end been hidden in the footer? Why isn't the shop part of the companion app?

This isn't looking good for developers.

Nick @ SKP

Were you guys (devs) aware of the incoming Reason+ changes?

No I heard nothing in regards to the changes.

To be clear I have no real issue with a subscription service. I'm just pretty pissed off that all of our products have now been hidden in such a way that new users wont see any third party RE's or ReFills. I'm not sure what the thinking behind that is.

[Yonatan]

Why do one have to download over 1 gb for every little update? Is that all the stock Reason soundpack automatically overwrites every time?
I am a Mac user and only read about a bug with Windows.

[WasteLand]

Thanks, appreciate the reply’s today. What I mean is that I feel the way it is painted with the marketing words. Always up to date. Like if you don’t subscribe it won’t be. Of course I can see you assure it will be and I believe that, but it’s the shady wording and tactics, it’s low and crap that everyone’s forced to compete like this.

It’s good to hear that you can still buy a licence outright, but the tactics from your marketing don’t fill me with confidence so I’ll be keeping 11 and calling it a day. Thanks again for responding today though. It’s good yous we’re prepared for the sadness with long term users.

All I can give you is my word (and Mattias and everyone elses) that we have no intention of being shady or dodgy. It's totally OK if you disagree with things and we WANT to hear that, but our intentions are only to provide value to everyone (both existing and potential customers).

i can see the positive side, but the uncertainty is what makes this thread so massive (pun intended), it will become Massive X! (nice synth by the way, yes i own a lot..)

i see you are not shady or dodgy. and i know; business/managers. o well. and of course, the employees of reason.

so the subscription isn't a bad idea, it is nothing for me, and other, but for others.. it could be great.

but the uncertainty is fuels this thread. more communication! that is what you are doing hear now.

[nbot]

Were you guys (devs) aware of the incoming Reason+ changes?

No I heard nothing in regards to the changes.

To be clear I have no real issue with a subscription service. I'm just pretty pissed off that all of our products have now been hidden in such a way that new users wont see any third party RE's or ReFills. I'm not sure what the thinking behind that is.

Weird indeed.

[WasteLand]

Were you guys (devs) aware of the incoming Reason+ changes?

No I heard nothing in regards to the changes.

To be clear I have no real issue with a subscription service. I'm just pretty pissed off that all of our products have now been hidden in such a way that new users wont see any third party RE's or ReFills. I'm not sure what the thinking behind that is.

that i noticed too, the third party RE's, are more interesting to me, than reason studios RE's because i have what i want from reason.

yes Friktion is nice, but won't work for my music, it is only a great pleasure to play with it, the demo..

reason+ has taken over the website, and that also contributes to negative feeling. although it is meant to generate money, i don't know the structure of reason studios, but i hope employees will benefit from it, not shareholders... ánd users.

EDIT: indeed weird that third party developers weren't informed. is there any meaningfull communication between third party developers and reason studios?

[chaosroyale]

Hi James, I don't normally jump in on these kinds of threads, but here is my 2 cents: you said

"Reason's BIG superpower, compared to say, Splice or Arcade is that Reason is a sound design machine."

That was true 20 or even 10 years ago. But the core devices have not been updated in all that time, lack oversampling, have TERRIBLE aliasing especially for saturated high-gain modern sounds, and a laughably out-of-date "advanced" sampler that has fewer features than hardware Yamaha and Akai samplers from the 1990's. Even the "modular" aspect, and the combinator, Reason's killer features, are implemented in most of the competing DAWs now - with some having more advanced features.

I understand that your aim is to get new users onboard with an easy subscription service to a whole world of sound design possibilities, that's great - it really is.

But FL users, Live users, Logic Users, Studio 1 users are not stupid (*well..maybe the FL users.. lol just kidding guys)

They can hear the aliasing, the steppy filters, the dull band-limited sounds. They can see how out-of-date Thor is compared to modern hypersynths, they can see how underwhelming Kong or Subtractor is compared to the competition.

And most of all...they can already get equivalent -or better- instruments, effects and sound for FREE with VST plugins.

Reason Studios is stuck in 2005, believing they have some kind of cutting-edge product, if only they could market it better..

The problem is the product isn't good enough anymore, and focusing only on marketing will not help that.

Also I don’t understand to whom this service is being marketed for. Clearly Reason struggles to reach new audiences, but are RRP and now this subscription enough to compete with other platforms? With absolutely zero new content?

Quirkiness and author’s touch on familiar devices were always strongest side of Reason at least for me (a user since v5). ReasonStudios have amazing concepts (Players, visual cable patching) and technologies (Physical modelling engines, Pitch Adjustment) on their hands, why not bet on them and make at least couple new devices before announcing subscription service? Why not present some transparent development goals at least, to show why somebody who already seen all of what’s included in subscription should become a subscriber.

Reason has struggled of recent times to break out of our niche. We have a very loyal and engaged audience (this thread is evidence of that), but we have struggled to attract new users. There are a variety of reasons for that (which we can go into at another time) but one of the things we think is really holding Reason back is the way we talk about it. Making music isn't about the gear. And we think we've talked too much about the gear in our marketing. Reason+ is an attempt to look up a little, and realise that making music is about being creative and expressing yourself. We think that by broadening our communications, we can reach and influence more people than ever before.

And we think Reason's BIG superpower, compared to say, Splice or Arcade is that Reason is a sound design machine. The best music has always been unique, and we think Reason can give a music maker the tools to sound unique, hence Sound Like You.

Perhaps my "marketing" hat is sitting a little too tight, but I do believe this and think Reason+ can vastly expand the number of Reason users out there. And that can ONLY be a good thing for you all, the hardcore fans who want us to invest more in the core product.

[EdwardKiy]

Very nice! Finally, I can recommend Reason to my uncle. Just sent him a link. Kudos on the one free month too, it totally beats the 'intros' and 'lites' nonsense.

But since the RS reps are here, would you please tell us that you will never go subscription-only and if a sequencer update is under way. I think I'd be representing a lot of people on this forum by sayin that a sequencer update is what we all really wanted and have been asking for a while.

[DaveyG]

Were you guys (devs) aware of the incoming Reason+ changes?

No I heard nothing in regards to the changes.

To be clear I have no real issue with a subscription service. I'm just pretty pissed off that all of our products have now been hidden in such a way that new users wont see any third party RE's or ReFills. I'm not sure what the thinking behind that is.

However you look at it, the new subscription model relegates third-party RE's and stuff to a lower league. Who is going to pay outright for something when they have a subscription? I think RS have probably calculated that losing some RE devs is a price worth paying. Cold, hard economics.

[drk73]

As I know, SoundBanks are the same for all 11 versions.

[jamespember]

Hi James, I don't normally jump in on these kinds of threads, but here is my 2 cents: you said

"Reason's BIG superpower, compared to say, Splice or Arcade is that Reason is a sound design machine."

That was true 20 or even 10 years ago. But the core devices have not been updated in all that time, lack oversampling, have TERRIBLE aliasing especially for saturated high-gain modern sounds, and a laughably out-of-date "advanced" sampler that has fewer features than hardware Yamaha and Akai samplers from the 1990's. Even the "modular" aspect, and the combinator, Reason's killer features, are implemented in most of the competing DAWs now - with some having more advanced features.

I understand that your aim is to get new users onboard with an easy subscription service to a whole world of sound design possibilities, that's great - it really is.

But FL users, Live users, Logic Users, Studio 1 users are not stupid (*well..maybe the FL users.. lol just kidding guys)

They can hear the aliasing, the steppy filters, the dull band-limited sounds. They can see how out-of-date Thor is compared to modern hypersynths, they can see how underwhelming Kong or Subtractor is compared to the competition.

And most of all...they can already get equivalent -or better- instruments, effects and sound for FREE with VST plugins.

Reason Studios is stuck in 2005, believing they have some kind of cutting-edge product, if only they could market it better..

The problem is the product isn't good enough anymore, and focusing only on marketing will not help that.

Reason has struggled of recent times to break out of our niche. We have a very loyal and engaged audience (this thread is evidence of that), but we have struggled to attract new users. There are a variety of reasons for that (which we can go into at another time) but one of the things we think is really holding Reason back is the way we talk about it. Making music isn't about the gear. And we think we've talked too much about the gear in our marketing. Reason+ is an attempt to look up a little, and realise that making music is about being creative and expressing yourself. We think that by broadening our communications, we can reach and influence more people than ever before.

And we think Reason's BIG superpower, compared to say, Splice or Arcade is that Reason is a sound design machine. The best music has always been unique, and we think Reason can give a music maker the tools to sound unique, hence Sound Like You.

Perhaps my "marketing" hat is sitting a little too tight, but I do believe this and think Reason+ can vastly expand the number of Reason users out there. And that can ONLY be a good thing for you all, the hardcore fans who want us to invest more in the core product.

Hey! Thanks for your input. I hear you!

[SixtyTen]

I have a Reason Suite licence but after receiving the Reason+ email I took a look at it and thought, hmmm an always up-to-date version of Reason and all their RE's, etc. that would be pretty decent. Maybe I should consider it.

Then I remembered that, despite owning Reason since v1.0, I've finished a grand total of ZERO songs! So probably not a good idea for me financially.

[lrey]

So this is what they've been up to all this time???

How utterly UNEVENTFUL.

First Reason as plugin. Now this lameness???

Yikes!

There's a long list of feature requests that we've been wanting for quite a while now. Why can't RS listen to their loyal customer base? I swear... this company has no connection with their customers.

I, like many of you, have invested heavily in Rack Extensions. Hate to be the one to say it, but this news of Reason+ is why VSTs, in general, are a better investment than REs. If/when you ever decide to jump ship from Reason, you still have your VSTs to use with pretty much any other DAW.

Personally, I feel this whole subscription thing is just a money grab. If they ever phase out the perpetual license, I can easily phase Reason out of my workflow... after all, it's not about the "software", it's all about the "producer."

[VariableX]

If we don't subscribe it wont last

don't subscribe its really that simple.

at the very least it means they will have to still provide paid upgrades...

[froggo_gfx]

Also I don’t understand to whom this service is being marketed for. Clearly Reason struggles to reach new audiences, but are RRP and now this subscription enough to compete with other platforms? With absolutely zero new content?

Quirkiness and author’s touch on familiar devices were always strongest side of Reason at least for me (a user since v5). ReasonStudios have amazing concepts (Players, visual cable patching) and technologies (Physical modelling engines, Pitch Adjustment) on their hands, why not bet on them and make at least couple new devices before announcing subscription service? Why not present some transparent development goals at least, to show why somebody who already seen all of what’s included in subscription should become a subscriber.

It's a good point about presenting some transparent goals, and I alluded to it in my blog post. It's something I think Reason+ actually allows and requires us to do more of. We've got a new synth coming up real soon, it's going in to beta this week, that I can't wait to talk even more about and there'll be more things like that. And to be even more explicit at the Reason application and plugin, we're committed to keep improving it (regardless of if you buy upgrades or subscribe). There's an upgrade in the works with hi-res, workflow features and some other really exciting things. The closer we get, the more we'll have to share of course!

In terms of competing, I don't believe music making is like driving where once you have a car you can go from A to B so why on earth would you want another car? Musicians have very different needs, ideas, things that inspire them and so on. There's room for plenty of musical instruments in this market. I think Reason's strength is how unique the devices are (you'll find no straight up Moog clones or an LA2A here!) and how the rack really allows for both deep sound design and great patches in Combinators. You guys know this of course, you're already Rack citizens, but to your question about competition I think that's relatively unique and something I hear over and over again that people love about Reason.

Frankly, I think more of your staff should spend more time communicating with users. Or, since you’re launching new online platform - why not resurrect original Reason community forum?
See, you’re communicating with people now, and it’s very good: with every new response from you there’s less toxicity from fans who feel like their expectations and suggestions being ignored. But what if it was done not in damage control mode but on a regular basis?

[colonel_mustard]

Ouch. I don't like this.

Will Reason 11 owners not get a scalable UI then? I've invested in Reason in good faith that such things were on the to do list, even if that meant paying for a R12 update, actually (I happily would). Much as I love Reason, I'm not interested in paying €20 a month for access to a new player device and a couple of sound packs that I won't use.

I'm far more interested in workflow/UI improvements - and would gladly pay to support the development of such features - but €240 a year for lots of 'content' that I don't need or want seems a hefty price tag for zooming/navigation.

This decision was always going to be divisive. I get that Reason has to be profitable, but please consider a pathway for users like me. Or at least a solid 'kiss off' update (i.e. offer a fully zoomable rack plug-in).

[bangaio]

Also I don’t understand to whom this service is being marketed for. Clearly Reason struggles to reach new audiences, but are RRP and now this subscription enough to compete with other platforms? With absolutely zero new content?

Quirkiness and author’s touch on familiar devices were always strongest side of Reason at least for me (a user since v5). ReasonStudios have amazing concepts (Players, visual cable patching) and technologies (Physical modelling engines, Pitch Adjustment) on their hands, why not bet on them and make at least couple new devices before announcing subscription service? Why not present some transparent development goals at least, to show why somebody who already seen all of what’s included in subscription should become a subscriber.

Reason has struggled of recent times to break out of our niche. We have a very loyal and engaged audience (this thread is evidence of that), but we have struggled to attract new users. There are a variety of reasons for that (which we can go into at another time) but one of the things we think is really holding Reason back is the way we talk about it. Making music isn't about the gear. And we think we've talked too much about the gear in our marketing. Reason+ is an attempt to look up a little, and realise that making music is about being creative and expressing yourself. We think that by broadening our communications, we can reach and influence more people than ever before.

And we think Reason's BIG superpower, compared to say, Splice or Arcade is that Reason is a sound design machine. The best music has always been unique, and we think Reason can give a music maker the tools to sound unique, hence Sound Like You.

Perhaps my "marketing" hat is sitting a little too tight, but I do believe this and think Reason+ can vastly expand the number of Reason users out there. And that can ONLY be a good thing for you all, the hardcore fans who want us to invest more in the core product.

I’m sorry changing the way you charge people for it isn’t going to grow users. People aren’t stupid and 12x£20 over 2 years is easy maths to do.

The fact you compare your product to arcade and splice is really interesting as most people see you compared to other daws.

People talk about the product for what it is and for most people they see great tools and synths and machines in an awesome rack with an out of date clunky sequencer with a browser that is blown away by the competition and odd ways of doing things like why for what is basically a windowless program is there a window for quantising. What is that all about?!

I think they’ve completely misread the room here.

[Creativemind]

I definitely think a one size fits all approach is the wrong model long-term. Subscription works best when it's like a gateway drug and something forces the user to increase their subscription level to get rid of an annoyance. On Spotify it's adverts if you use the free service. On Reason+ it would be missing out on exclusive content that a subscription level doesn't cover that would entice the customer into paying more.

I agree. Think more smaller tier subscriptions is a great idea.

[danc]

I think they’ve completely misread the room here.

I think they have read the room, but being selective on what they answer to.

[colonel_mustard]

I hadn't read the blog:

Don’t like subscriptions?
As excited as we are about Reason+, we understand that subscription services aren’t for everyone. If you want to buy a full Reason license outright, we’ll still offer it as a perpetual license purchase. To simplify our lineup we will discontinue Reason Intro and Reason Suite—the software will continue to function, and you will still be able to upgrade to the full version of Reason. All of our Rack Extensions will still be available a la carte in our Add-On Shop. REs will work in Reason and Reason+ forever, including the ones you already own.

https://www.reasonstudios.com/blog/intr ... eason-plus

Ouch. I don't like this.

Will Reason 11 owners not get a scalable UI then? I've invested in Reason in good faith that such things were on the to do list, even if that meant paying for a R12 update, actually (I happily would). Much as I love Reason, I'm not interested in paying €20 a month for access to a new player device and a couple of sound packs that I won't use.

I'm far more interested in workflow/UI improvements - and would gladly pay to support the development of such features - but €240 a year for lots of 'content' that I don't need or want seems a hefty price tag for zooming/navigation.

This decision was always going to be divisive. I get that Reason has to be profitable, but please consider a pathway for users like me. Or at least a solid 'kiss off' update (i.e. offer a fully zoomable rack plug-in).

[1reasonable]

But again, and this is worth reiterating since it was perhaps unclear, the normal perpetual license is not gone. You can still stay with that.

Yes, but for how long will the “perpetual licence” exist? You have already previously allegedly hinted (mischievously(?)) that there would be no Reason 12.

I’m a Reason user since v3 and although I upgraded to v11 recently, I instantly regretted it. I felt betrayed with this as an “upgrade” as it offered little to me as an existing Reason-exclusive DAW user. I fear there will be a phasing out of the licence model, which for me is a very sad day.
I understand the need for Reason Studios to attract new users, but at the expense many of your current user base? I have no intention of subscribing (even at half price for the first year) as I’m not a 24/7 Reason user.

I feel as if I’m being abandoned by Reason Studios.

[WillyOD]

First of all, who are you James? You must be in high position being able to speak for Mattias and everyone else....

Second, I'm not convinced you (or even Ludvig's) are all that into Reason+ so you and and the staff trying to sell us Reason+ without any real selling points seems.... weak.

Why would should we believe in anything your company says? You're probably bringing Allihooppa back next week because a monkey decided so and you also flipped a coin.

I'm sorry but your company feels directionless, personally I haven't seen any good choices from your company in ~5 years.

All I can give you is my word (and Mattias and everyone elses) that we have no intention of being shady or dodgy. It's totally OK if you disagree with things and we WANT to hear that, but our intentions are only to provide value to everyone (both existing and potential customers).