tempo problems exporting and importing wav file

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DiamondSea
Posts: 6
Joined: 06 Jan 2021

Post 06 Jan 2021

Hiya folks

New poster here looking for some help. Excuse the long post but its a little complicated...!

I am collaborating remotely on a recording project with my drummer and it is proving more difficult than I thought. I am recording a scratch backing track in Reason 11 and exporting and sending my drummer the wav file. My drummer does not have a DAW or a computer but uses a Roland TD27 drum module. While listening to my wav file he is physically playing and recording a drum track on the TD27 and then sending me a new wav file of his drum track. I then import this into the song on Reason and try to sync it up. I knew I would have to line up the start of the track to sync as he is not recording into a sequencer. That is ok but a bit cumbersome but helped by my drummer recording a count in that I can later delete. The problem I am having is that the wav file he has created plays back at a slightly slower tempo (marginal 135.2bpm instead of 135bpm) than the original backing track even though it was recorded by the drummer while listening to the wav file I originally sent him. I can line up the start of the recording but by the chorus it has gone out of time. I have to go in and time stretch (time-shrink?) the drum track to play back in sync. Before you ask- I know the drummer is playing in time with the backing track as he also sent me a recording including the original backing and it sounded perfect. I just can't get it to line up easily with the original backing track in my DAW.
The drums sound great so I think this recording method will work. I just don't know if I am missing something obvious in creating, exporting and then importing the wav files. I am using 16 bit 44 kHz wav file creation and as far as I know the TD27 uses the same conversion.
Is it something to do with sample rates?
Or is the Roland TD27 playback that he is listening to for recording at a slightly slower tempo than the original?
Or is it something to do with my DAW auto-stretching and making a mess of it?

Any help appreciated as I am new to digital audio file management??

I know an obvious answer is that the drummer should record into a computer and DAW so it is sequenced to a grid but that may be a while off...!

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sonicbyte
Posts: 277
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Argentina

Post 07 Jan 2021

Hi, I think you can fix it with this technique shown in this video:



Hope it helps

visheshl
Posts: 412
Joined: 27 Sep 2019

Post 07 Jan 2021

hey man, since i have ableton, send me a wav file of the drum track and tell me the tempo, I'll try to warp it into tempo for you and send it back to you. i hope its not multiple tracks, if its just a single track i can try it. if it still happens then i dont know...

DiamondSea
Posts: 6
Joined: 06 Jan 2021

Post 07 Jan 2021

visheshl wrote:
07 Jan 2021
hey man, since i have ableton, send me a wav file of the drum track and tell me the tempo, I'll try to warp it into tempo for you and send it back to you. i hope its not multiple tracks, if its just a single track i can try it. if it still happens then i dont know...
thanks for the offer but I can fix the audio tracks alright using the scale tempo tool in Reason. I was just wondering why I have to go to all this effort when I using the same tempo for the exported wav and the drum track was recorded along with this tempo. then when import the drum track it is in a slightly different tempo. It is driving me crazy trying to figure out why it is different and if I am doing something fundamentally wrong somewhere.

I really appreciate your offer to fix the tracks but I can fix alright. I'm looking more for a preventative action rather than a corrective action.. :question: :roll:

visheshl
Posts: 412
Joined: 27 Sep 2019

Post 07 Jan 2021

ok man...
Last edited by visheshl on 07 Jan 2021, edited 1 time in total.

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 9053
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 07 Jan 2021

Sounds like a classic sync issue, or rather a lack of sync issue. For reliable sync I’d play the backing track on the same device that is recording the drums. In this case even a free app like GarageBand would work. Since the Roland has USB audio it should be simple to hook it directly to a computer for recording.
Make sense?
Selig Audio, LLC

DiamondSea
Posts: 6
Joined: 06 Jan 2021

Post 07 Jan 2021

selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
Sounds like a classic sync issue, or rather a lack of sync issue. For reliable sync I’d play the backing track on the same device that is recording the drums. In this case even a free app like GarageBand would work. Since the Roland has USB audio it should be simple to hook it directly to a computer for recording.
Make sense?
Hiya

Yes i think it is lack of sync issue. The backing track does play on the same device that is recording the drums - the Roland module. It has the ability to play a wav file and only record the drums as another wav file. However it must be playing the backing track at a slightly different tempo than the tempo the track was originally created with... i think?? I'm not an expert on wav files.

The problem is my drummer does not have a computer. He has an ipad but roland only makes drivers for mac and windows so won't work with an ipad running garageband unfortunately. So for now he has to record directly on to a SD card in the roland drum module.

I was wondering if it had something to do with the embedded tempo information in the wav file? Maybe i need to go on the Roland forum for an answer as I'm beginning to suspect that the problem is with the way it creates a wav file on the roland module SD card.

Anyway thanks for your help. All answers are much appreciated and at least I know i'm not missing something obvious... :)

DiamondSea
Posts: 6
Joined: 06 Jan 2021

Post 07 Jan 2021

sonicbyte wrote:
07 Jan 2021
Hi, I think you can fix it with this technique shown in this video:



Hope it helps
Hi. Just watched that video. That is a very cool technique and I can already think of using it with a guitar/singer i collaborate with who can't play with a click!!
For my problem, I have an easier fix. I basically trim the drummers audio file so the first beat lines up with the backing track. I then trim the end so that the last drum hit is the end of the clip. I then use the scale tempo tool to make the clip fit within the number of bars of the entire song. This pulls back all hits to fit nicely.

The reason I went on this forum for answers is because it seems illogical that i can create a backing track with a certain tempo- export the track and then a new track is created while playing along with the original. Then when I re-import the new track it is slightly out of tempo.
I thought that I must be messing up somewhere but perhaps it is just the inherent slight differences in wav files being created in different systems and I just have to live with fixing each time...?

Anyway thanks for the video link. I'll definitely use that technique anyway.... :)

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 9053
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 07 Jan 2021

DiamondSea wrote:
07 Jan 2021
selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
Sounds like a classic sync issue, or rather a lack of sync issue. For reliable sync I’d play the backing track on the same device that is recording the drums. In this case even a free app like GarageBand would work. Since the Roland has USB audio it should be simple to hook it directly to a computer for recording.
Make sense?
Hiya

Yes i think it is lack of sync issue. The backing track does play on the same device that is recording the drums - the Roland module. It has the ability to play a wav file and only record the drums as another wav file. However it must be playing the backing track at a slightly different tempo than the tempo the track was originally created with... i think?? I'm not an expert on wav files.

The problem is my drummer does not have a computer. He has an ipad but roland only makes drivers for mac and windows so won't work with an ipad running garageband unfortunately. So for now he has to record directly on to a SD card in the roland drum module.

I was wondering if it had something to do with the embedded tempo information in the wav file? Maybe i need to go on the Roland forum for an answer as I'm beginning to suspect that the problem is with the way it creates a wav file on the roland module SD card.

Anyway thanks for your help. All answers are much appreciated and at least I know i'm not missing something obvious... :)
That's odd then, because there's no reason for it to NOT sync under those circumstances. A .wav file should be pretty standard, and same for sample rates. I'm assuming the files you sent were 44.1 kHz sample rate?
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

DiamondSea
Posts: 6
Joined: 06 Jan 2021

Post 07 Jan 2021

selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
DiamondSea wrote:
07 Jan 2021


Hiya

Yes i think it is lack of sync issue. The backing track does play on the same device that is recording the drums - the Roland module. It has the ability to play a wav file and only record the drums as another wav file. However it must be playing the backing track at a slightly different tempo than the tempo the track was originally created with... i think?? I'm not an expert on wav files.

The problem is my drummer does not have a computer. He has an ipad but roland only makes drivers for mac and windows so won't work with an ipad running garageband unfortunately. So for now he has to record directly on to a SD card in the roland drum module.

I was wondering if it had something to do with the embedded tempo information in the wav file? Maybe i need to go on the Roland forum for an answer as I'm beginning to suspect that the problem is with the way it creates a wav file on the roland module SD card.

Anyway thanks for your help. All answers are much appreciated and at least I know i'm not missing something obvious... :)
That's odd then, because there's no reason for it to NOT sync under those circumstances. A .wav file should be pretty standard, and same for sample rates. I'm assuming the files you sent were 44.1 kHz sample rate?
:)
Yes it's odd alright. I'm as sure as I can be that the files I sent were 44.1 kHz as I just use this as my default when exporting but I can't be sure what sample rate the roland TD 27 used. The reference manual states 44.1kHz but i didn't create the drum file. My remote drummer did and he doesn't know what he did. Is there a way of telling on the file itself?

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 9053
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 07 Jan 2021

DiamondSea wrote:
07 Jan 2021
Yes it's odd alright. I'm as sure as I can be that the files I sent were 44.1 kHz as I just use this as my default when exporting but I can't be sure what sample rate the roland TD 27 used. The reference manual states 44.1kHz but i didn't create the drum file. My remote drummer did and he doesn't know what he did. Is there a way of telling on the file itself?
Yes, you can see sample rate in the lower area of Reason's Browser when you click on an audio file.

Has this process worked well in the past for him? It really SHOULD work, but I don't know what may be going on with the Roland. I've got an older kit without this feature, and the TD27 manual doesn't go into a lot of depth about that feature (recording the drums while listening to an audio file), but it implies it SHOULD work. I'm trying to think of a test I could have you do to find out what's going on (and how to fix it if possible), but can't think of one ATM - sorry, if something comes to me I'll post back pronto!
Selig Audio, LLC

DiamondSea
Posts: 6
Joined: 06 Jan 2021

Post 08 Jan 2021

selig wrote:
07 Jan 2021
DiamondSea wrote:
07 Jan 2021
Yes it's odd alright. I'm as sure as I can be that the files I sent were 44.1 kHz as I just use this as my default when exporting but I can't be sure what sample rate the roland TD 27 used. The reference manual states 44.1kHz but i didn't create the drum file. My remote drummer did and he doesn't know what he did. Is there a way of telling on the file itself?
Yes, you can see sample rate in the lower area of Reason's Browser when you click on an audio file.

Has this process worked well in the past for him? It really SHOULD work, but I don't know what may be going on with the Roland. I've got an older kit without this feature, and the TD27 manual doesn't go into a lot of depth about that feature (recording the drums while listening to an audio file), but it implies it SHOULD work. I'm trying to think of a test I could have you do to find out what's going on (and how to fix it if possible), but can't think of one ATM - sorry, if something comes to me I'll post back pronto!
We are both newbies to this- forced into by lockdown like everybody else. The roland TD27 is a recent purchase for the drummer and this is the first attempt of recording it. I'm going to get him to try to play the backing track (including click) with the TD 27 click and see if they are in sync right through. If it drifts then we know that it is playing back the backing track at a slightly different speed. Just have to figure out how to to sync the start of the playback of the backing track and the TD27 click first. I would love to have the TD-27 myself so I can have a play around but I will have to wait for the drummer to try it. I'll let you know how I get on..

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 9053
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 08 Jan 2021

DiamondSea wrote:
08 Jan 2021
We are both newbies to this- forced into by lockdown like everybody else. The roland TD27 is a recent purchase for the drummer and this is the first attempt of recording it. I'm going to get him to try to play the backing track (including click) with the TD 27 click and see if they are in sync right through. If it drifts then we know that it is playing back the backing track at a slightly different speed. Just have to figure out how to to sync the start of the playback of the backing track and the TD27 click first. I would love to have the TD-27 myself so I can have a play around but I will have to wait for the drummer to try it. I'll let you know how I get on..
I just did a remote project for a friend over the holidays, and one additional thing I do is print the first 10 or so seconds of the ref track that I received back on the front of one of the tracks I recorded. That way they can be doubly sure things are starting where they are suppose to start, just by listening.

Generally you import the file from your collaborator with the assumption it should start right at the beginning of the song: bar 1, or 0:00 on the time clock.
So logically when you send files out to your drummer you want the export file to start at the beginning of the song file even if the music doesn't start until bar 2 or even later. You try to keep things as simple as possible because (as you know) plenty of places for things to go wrong! :)
Selig Audio, LLC

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