Reason's Competition

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deeplink
Posts: 225
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Post 23 Dec 2020

Hi RT

Just a few thoughts on Reason's competition over the years;

Reason initially sat on in it's own unique place in the audio production world - without much relative comparison to other DAW's.
After the introduction of Audio Tracks and VST's, I think Reason could safely be compared with, and entered into direct competition with the likes of Ableton, Cubase, etc.

Now after the introduction of RRP, Reason is in competition with not only another DAW, but other products/software companies too - e.g Xfer, Kiloheartz, iZotope, Fabfilter etc.

Just seems like an extensive and diverse pool of competitors.

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antic604
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Post 23 Dec 2020

deeplink wrote:
23 Dec 2020
Just seems like an extensive and diverse pool of competitors.
If you're not good enought at carving, keeping and protecting your niche, then you need to go out and fight with competition in a broader market.

I guess they had no choice.

And I mean it in positive sense, because if they stopped at v9.0, i.e. not added VSTs in v9.5 and then not branched-out with RRP in v11, then it's very likely there would be no more (new) Reason soon.
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MannequinRaces
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Post 23 Dec 2020

The DAW market is crowded but I think Reason Studios is well positioned because they have their DAW, the integrated shop, and the RRP. Not many other DAW makers can say they have all of that.

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antic604
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Post 23 Dec 2020

MannequinRaces wrote:
23 Dec 2020
The DAW market is crowded but I think Reason Studios is well positioned because they have their DAW, the integrated shop, and the RRP. Not many other DAW makers can say they have all of that.
True. But I'd love to know how succesful RRP was in bringing new business from non-Reason users. Because for me it seemed rather like a desperate way to extract money from people that were leaving Reason anyway, by enticing them to upgrade to v11 to be able to take their toys somewhere else.

I'd love to be wrong about that, because I want Reason, RRP and RE ecosystem to thrive.
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

Rackman
Posts: 108
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 23 Dec 2020

I honestly don't understand why anyone would invest in Reason now. If you like the rack / cable thing, then you have VCV which does it so much better. It can host VST3 so you can use anything in it and will soon be a VST3 itself. You can get modules that are as good if not better than REs that cost ££s for free, and there are literally thousands of them. If you want a sequencer, almost any DAW is considerably better than Reason at this point. If you want a good graphical experience, Reason is at the back of the pack. If you want to invest in modules you can sell on again, Reason locks you in and gives you no option to resell anything other than Reason itself. If you want confidence in your platform, Reason is owned by VCs looking for quick profit. At this point the only two reasons I can see for someone using Reason are that they have invested in REs or they haven't looked at anything else for years and are change averse. RRP is just the ultimate admission of failure.

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antic604
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Post 23 Dec 2020

Rackman wrote:
23 Dec 2020
I honestly don't understand why anyone would invest in Reason now. If you like the rack / cable thing, then you have VCV which does it so much better. It can host VST3 so you can use anything in it and will soon be a VST3 itself. You can get modules that are as good if not better than REs that cost ££s for free, and there are literally thousands of them. If you want a sequencer, almost any DAW is considerably better than Reason at this point. If you want a good graphical experience, Reason is at the back of the pack. If you want to invest in modules you can sell on again, Reason locks you in and gives you no option to resell anything other than Reason itself. If you want confidence in your platform, Reason is owned by VCs looking for quick profit. At this point the only two reasons I can see for someone using Reason are that they have invested in REs or they haven't looked at anything else for years and are change averse.
Lots of hyperbole in your post, but you ain't wrong overall.

However, in most cases it's not the most important to be the best in every given cathegory (patching, cost of modules, sequencer, GUI, etc.) but how all the features tie together and flow into eachother and Reason is still kind of great in this, at least for me. I just sold Bitwig v3.3 and Studio One v5.1 and got left with Reason v11 (which I only got into with v10 in late 2017), because even if those other DAWs are "objectively" better, they were *for me* either too overwhelming (Bitwig) or uninspiring (Studio One). In my case Reason was the proverbial "jack of all trades, master of none" that I needed :D

Rackman wrote:
23 Dec 2020
RRP is just the ultimate admission of failure.
Well, let's find out shall we? :)
https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p7982323
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Loque
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Post 23 Dec 2020

There are also other competing products like VCV, Cherry Audio, Modular and probably lots of other things. Reason clearly must find its place or be better than the others since there is no "free" nische i know of.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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EdwardKiy
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Post 23 Dec 2020

Rackman wrote:
23 Dec 2020
.
I'm using Live for a sequencer for most things, but some things you mentioned I completely disagree with
Rackman wrote:
23 Dec 2020
I honestly don't understand why anyone would invest in Reason now. If you like the rack / cable thing, then you have VCV which does it so much better. It can host VST3 so you can use anything in it and will soon be a VST3 itself. You can get modules that are as good if not better than REs that cost ££s for free, and there are literally thousands of them. If you want a sequencer, almost any DAW is considerably better than Reason at this point. If you want a good graphical experience, Reason is at the back of the pack. If you want to invest in modules you can sell on again, Reason locks you in and gives you no option to resell anything other than Reason itself. If you want confidence in your platform, Reason is owned by VCs looking for quick profit. At this point the only two reasons I can see for someone using Reason are that they have invested in REs or they haven't looked at anything else for years and are change averse. RRP is just the ultimate admission of failure.
VCV is years away from kissing Reason Rack's boots. In any way. You can't compare a synth to a unit with tight integration to both the mixer and the sequencer, which can take an audio signal from without (like a guitar, voice or a piano) and convert it into digital then have you play around with it and then decode it back to audio. Sidechaining? Routing to separate bus groups? Forget it. VCV is just a synth which only allows two(?) types of synthesis. Compare it to COMPLEX-1, if you really must - one of the synths that come bundled with the Suite package. Not as robust in itself, perhaps, but surely a lot more versatile if you bring in the rest of the DAW capabilities.

Aesthetically, Reason sends all the other DAWs back to school with it's vintage design that ages like fine wine. There's no contest. Sometimes I load up Reason when my computer starts in the morning just to smell the wooden rack.

As to re-selling, far as I know, Propellerheads are the ONLY company that allow for legal re-sale of the DAW license 100% digitally. The only runner-up (on paper) is Cubase with their sale wizard, but you have to send the buyer a physical dongle, which adds an extra cost and time delay and makes the whole transaction too costly for the seller and completely pointless for the buyer, so it's more of a sham than a real service by Steinberg. Ableton also has some bullshit way where you have to create an email love triangle between the company, the buyer and the seller. As to extensions, having a "try it free for one month" option as well as allowing to re-sell the extensions would be a slap to the RE developers. Show me ONE vst seller that lets you try a VST for free for a month. Or even a week. Isn't it better to know what you're buying rather than ending up re-selling for pennies?

The third reason for people to use Reason that you are missing, is that there are only 2 DAWs that make the knowledge of an actual musician transferrable - Garage Band and Reason. And seeing as Garage Band is a toy that serves as an up-sale stooge for Logic Pro (and the nightmare of the Apple ecosystem it entails), there's really just one option.

I have picked carefully when buying Reason last year, and detesting all things apple, I had to only choose between Reason, Studio One and Cubase, which looks like it was designed by some Nosferatu who's coffin hasn't been disturbed since 2003.

I hate the fact that I'm using Live for a sequencer, or using anything else for anything else. It has to be just one environment where I can make music as soon as I open it. I don't want to open any additional 3rd,4th,5th or 6th-party applications or make omelets or build paper castles as soon as I start my DAW - it's a terrible, distracting workflow. At times I seriously doubt if it's even worth it.

Reason is much closer to the full package than anything else I've tried, so in my head it ranks higher than Live, FL, Cubase, Bitwig, Reaper or Studio One, of which only Cubase and Studio One qualify as fully-fledged DAWs and not just sequencers (in my book at least, and Cubase less so).

Also, VSTs are unstable compared to REs - a vastly inferior format technically. But if we didn't have the RRP right now we'd be 'itching about how the Reason DAW is still in the 1990's and there would be a lot less of us 'itching. I wouldn't be here, for one.
Reason 12 - last chance.

Rackman
Posts: 108
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 23 Dec 2020

@EdwardKiy there are so many factual inaccuracies there that I'm not going to even start correcting them. I'm guessing your lack of knowledge is also what lead you to jump on the sinking Reason ship so late that only the funnel is above water.

kitekrazy
Posts: 827
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 23 Dec 2020

You could probably change the title to Pro Tools and have the same conclusions. Users get use to a work flow and don't care to change because something is better. For example I have Cubase which is one of the top DAWs used in the professional market. I just don't care for it. I don't like the looks and the opening project window. Their licensing is restricted. I can think of more things I don't like about it that turns the head of its fanboys.

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zoidkirb
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Location: Brisbane Australia

Post 23 Dec 2020

The RRP in terms of price and features sits awkwardly somewhere between other bundles like Komplete, Arturia, soundtoys, and the various modular synth platforms.
Cheaper than Komplete but with fewer and worse content overall. More expensive than Cherry/VCV but can do a lot more (also a lot less when it comes to deep modular features, and VST3 hosting) and similar price to Soundtoys bundle, but does a lot more while having a worse set of FX.
RRP looks to be aimed at past and former Reason customers....so far.

Chi-Individual
Posts: 52
Joined: 09 Apr 2020

Post 23 Dec 2020

I’ve been a Reason user since R2 and I’ve always compared their philosophy to Nintendo and Apple(though they aren’t at the top like Apple).

1. They are late to adapt to changing times.
2. When they do adapt they try to make sure it’s unique to their own platform.
3. They make sure to always be the different kid in the class to cater to their unique users. (Apple and Nintendo fans are the same)
4. And they always find a way to implement features in a way that are so unique that you didn’t know you needed them until it was created. (Apple iPhone, iPad, Watch, M1 chip, N64 analog stick, Wii, Switch)

All three companies are considered “behind the curve” when it comes to innovation and feature set but all three are stable, intuitive and easy to use. Since R2 Reason has crashed on me less than 10x and that’s on some crappy computers at times. My first time with Logic X it crashed on me the first 10x I opened it.

Now we have the RRP. I don’t know of any full fledged DAW that gives you options to use it as a DAW then a plug-in at the drop of a hat. I mean come on. And people always want to talk about the quality of the product. If you can find 100 music consumers , who have zero musical background, that can tell the difference between R11, S1 5, Live 10, FL, Cubase, Logic, Bitwig, Pro Tools etc when YOU play them YOUR exported song then you have a valid quality point. Other than that it comes down to the user and people have made hits using Reason.

Do they have the most features? No! Are there features I wish they had? Yes! Could it be better in some areas? Yes, all DAWs can. But the fact of the matter is Reason is a quality product for those who “get it” and they’ve surveyed the DAW landscape repeatedly to see where the competition is going and how they can fit in while carving their own lane. IMO they’re the only DAW that has competition from everyone and from no one all at the same time and it’s worked for them and I hope it continues to work for them because I like their product.

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SebAudio
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Post 24 Dec 2020

Chi-Individual wrote:
23 Dec 2020
I’ve been a Reason user since R2 and I’ve always compared their philosophy to Nintendo and Apple(though they aren’t at the top like Apple).

1. They are late to adapt to changing times.
2. When they do adapt they try to make sure it’s unique to their own platform.
3. They make sure to always be the different kid in the class to cater to their unique users. (Apple and Nintendo fans are the same)
4. And they always find a way to implement features in a way that are so unique that you didn’t know you needed them until it was created. (Apple iPhone, iPad, Watch, M1 chip, N64 analog stick, Wii, Switch)

All three companies are considered “behind the curve” when it comes to innovation and feature set but all three are stable, intuitive and easy to use. Since R2 Reason has crashed on me less than 10x and that’s on some crappy computers at times. My first time with Logic X it crashed on me the first 10x I opened it.

Now we have the RRP. I don’t know of any full fledged DAW that gives you options to use it as a DAW then a plug-in at the drop of a hat. I mean come on. And people always want to talk about the quality of the product. If you can find 100 music consumers , who have zero musical background, that can tell the difference between R11, S1 5, Live 10, FL, Cubase, Logic, Bitwig, Pro Tools etc when YOU play them YOUR exported song then you have a valid quality point. Other than that it comes down to the user and people have made hits using Reason.

Do they have the most features? No! Are there features I wish they had? Yes! Could it be better in some areas? Yes, all DAWs can. But the fact of the matter is Reason is a quality product for those who “get it” and they’ve surveyed the DAW landscape repeatedly to see where the competition is going and how they can fit in while carving their own lane. IMO they’re the only DAW that has competition from everyone and from no one all at the same time and it’s worked for them and I hope it continues to work for them because I like their product.
I’m not sure about what you said about Apple but anyway.
Reason has always been different and had always been a tool which allow users to make tracks. For talented people, it will not make any difference in the end result (the production « quality » of the song). But for the beginner or average user, it’ll be harder or impossible to reach the same « production quality » with Reason (except if using pre-recorded loops) than using some vst (the « good ones » that everybody agree are) because those « basic building blocs » are more « production ready » in the later case.
Quality has levelled up with years, with new (versions of) synths, FX, etc. I don’t think anybody is using pro-53 anymore when there is Repro. And there’s a reason for this. Can I do the same with Reason ?
And not only the sound is concerned but since 6 years, the graphics are bad with the retina / hidpi screen resolutions.
But Reason 12 will make all my saying rubbish !
Seb Audio ( :reason: 6.5 :PUF_balance: / Ableton Live 10 + RRP Lite 11-PX7)
https://maretranquillitatis.bandcamp.com/
https://ljseb.bandcamp.com/

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Jackjackdaw
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Post 24 Dec 2020

I think Players are unique enough to make Reason worth getting in to. I think the back of the rack CV stuff is kind of legacy and not really what RS is focused on . Witness all the newer RS devices back panels. No fans and power supplies drawn on.

I really have no idea who is buying what. I have my selection of products from a few different companies whose progress I follow and generally I buy the upgrades. Then there will be someone else who does the same but with a completely different set of products.

I think quite a few people got R11 intro so they could check out the RRP in their existing DAW. (according to my Twitter feed and a mate)

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EdwardKiy
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Post 24 Dec 2020

Rackman wrote:
23 Dec 2020
@EdwardKiy there are so many factual inaccuracies there that I'm not going to even start correcting them. I'm guessing your lack of knowledge is also what lead you to jump on the sinking Reason ship so late that only the funnel is above water.
Cheers, and I'll be guessing that it's your Peyronie's that makes your opinions so crooked. Let's call it a stalemate.
Reason 12 - last chance.

Chi-Individual
Posts: 52
Joined: 09 Apr 2020

Post 24 Dec 2020

SebAudio wrote:
24 Dec 2020
For talented people, it will not make any difference in the end result (the production « quality » of the song). But for the beginner or average user, it’ll be harder or impossible to reach the same « production quality » with Reason (except if using pre-recorded loops) than using some vst (the « good ones » that everybody agree are) because those « basic building blocs » are more « production ready » in the later case.

Interesting! Please elaborate on how the entire Reason DAW environment (esp Reason 11 Suite) with all of the instruments(including a loop player), FX, Players to start making looks and chords etc, Mixer, sequencer with and without blocks, and the routing system that many have said translates over to the hardware studio environment, is less conducive to a beginner musician than a single VST instrument. The DAW is still the main factor and I don't see making "quality music" as being any easier for a person with a VST and say Logic or PT or Live or FL you name it. The learning curve is still the DAW. No one or two or three VST's are gonna make a beginner jump past the beginner learning curve. What basic building blocks can a VST teach that Reason can't in order to reach a level of making quality music?

visheshl
Posts: 412
Joined: 27 Sep 2019

Post 24 Dec 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
24 Dec 2020
Rackman wrote:
23 Dec 2020
@EdwardKiy there are so many factual inaccuracies there that I'm not going to even start correcting them. I'm guessing your lack of knowledge is also what lead you to jump on the sinking Reason ship so late that only the funnel is above water.
Cheers, and I'll be guessing that it's your Peyronie's that makes your opinions so crooked. Let's call it a stalemate.
😂 vcv rack is good but its not reason, its not a suite of various plugins and extensions that assist you in creating a full proper track, its a good modular synth, you can compare it to other modular synths, but not reason...RRP itself is way better than vcv rack, a modular synth is one of its plugins...the whole thing isn't a modular synth... please don't compare apples to a fruit basket which has apples as one of its fruits.
vcv is good for messing around if you're in the mood for it and creating wierd sounds, but its not a music production system....RRP is in fact just a feature of reason which is far more powerful, its not even the whole Daw, reason is a DAW too...albiet its lagging behind as a DAW but its still pretty functional

JunctionArsonist
Posts: 33
Joined: 23 Sep 2018

Post 24 Dec 2020

Reason is differentiated enough as a product that certain people will continue to be drawn to it same as I was. For people like me, it is inspirational and feature complete barring small incremental development that i will continue to support with my money.

For some, the reason DAW package will be overwhelming. Reason-record had a steep learning curve when i bought in. Reason is not Live or Cubase, or pro tools, never will be and doesnt have to be. RS has been right to focus on bringing the rack to the masses via VST, and regardless of whether this has been a raging commercial success, it seems obvious their focus will continue to be the rack, and not the DAW. THis idea that RS is "admitting defeat" by VSTing the rack or is somehow failing as a business is the same nonsense as 12 year olds arguing whether xbox or playstation is better.

Reason is different, will remain different, and if they keep on this trajectory, another 20 years of reason is ahead. I look forward to seeing what happens with the rack, its devices, and whatever else they decide to bring to the table.

visheshl
Posts: 412
Joined: 27 Sep 2019

Post 24 Dec 2020

JunctionArsonist wrote:
24 Dec 2020
Reason is differentiated enough as a product that certain people will continue to be drawn to it same as I was. For people like me, it is inspirational and feature complete barring small incremental development that i will continue to support with my money.

For some, the reason DAW package will be overwhelming. Reason-record had a steep learning curve when i bought in. Reason is not Live or Cubase, or pro tools, never will be and doesnt have to be. RS has been right to focus on bringing the rack to the masses via VST, and regardless of whether this has been a raging commercial success, it seems obvious their focus will continue to be the rack, and not the DAW. THis idea that RS is "admitting defeat" by VSTing the rack or is somehow failing as a business is the same nonsense as 12 year olds arguing whether xbox or playstation is better.

Reason is different, will remain different, and if they keep on this trajectory, another 20 years of reason is ahead. I look forward to seeing what happens with the rack, its devices, and whatever else they decide to bring to the table.
completely agree, RRP has changed the way i make music, i get the best of both worlds, a great DAW which i can choose as per my needs and a modular Rack complete with cv and audio signal modulor environment...its great.

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kuhliloach
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Post 24 Dec 2020

It feels like Logic has become the gold standard as far as quality, overall value, price / no-cost upgrades, organization, user interface, iOS integration, and the best feature set. Sadly, nobody is competing with this level of excellence, Reason being so far behind I'm not sure there's any path to catch up. Ableton is the world's premiere DAW but the absurd pricing of the Suite version puts it out of the reach of most people, just like Reason Suite. Thus so many people pirate Ableton Suite as doing so is just "expected" in producer circles. They're not "priced to move" like Logic. There is an energy flow in the world of DAW's; a restless energy that must find a path.

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avasopht
Posts: 2171
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Post 24 Dec 2020

deeplink wrote:
23 Dec 2020
Hi RT

Just a few thoughts on Reason's competition over the years;

Reason initially sat on in it's own unique place in the audio production world - without much relative comparison to other DAW's.
After the introduction of Audio Tracks and VST's, I think Reason could safely be compared with, and entered into direct competition with the likes of Ableton, Cubase, etc.

Now after the introduction of RRP, Reason is in competition with not only another DAW, but other products/software companies too - e.g Xfer, Kiloheartz, iZotope, Fabfilter etc.

Just seems like an extensive and diverse pool of competitors.
It doesn't work like that.

Before RRP and VST support Reason already had users.

Adding RRP or VST support doesn't make Reason less valuable for the existing users and the future users who would have purchased it.

All it can do is increase the userbase by appealing to users who would have used it if they could also use their VSTs, or run Reason as a plugin.

Plus RRP
---

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arnigretar
Posts: 58
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Location: Iceland

Post 25 Dec 2020

Reason studios has imo done great over the years. The rack is still here. The same devices that were available in 2000 are still available and many more great devices. They opened up for vst support and they have improved many things. As a DAW it's great. It doesn't have to be like the others. Oranges and apples. Both fruits... but taste different. Can it improve? Sure... but what can't improve? Logic is owned by one of the biggest companies in the world and ofc it does great and can offer it's product more cheaper. And for the RRP... it's just great to be able to offer the rack to other DAW's. So like... if you like Logic and want to work in that, you can also have the RRP. Which is - in fact - pretty cheap. But great. I have at least been using Reason since 1.0 and I am still here. And turning on the DAW still gives me a buzz.

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SebAudio
Posts: 193
Joined: 08 Mar 2015

Post 25 Dec 2020

Chi-Individual wrote:
24 Dec 2020
SebAudio wrote:
24 Dec 2020
For talented people, it will not make any difference in the end result (the production « quality » of the song). But for the beginner or average user, it’ll be harder or impossible to reach the same « production quality » with Reason (except if using pre-recorded loops) than using some vst (the « good ones » that everybody agree are) because those « basic building blocs » are more « production ready » in the later case.

Interesting! Please elaborate on how the entire Reason DAW environment (esp Reason 11 Suite) with all of the instruments(including a loop player), FX, Players to start making looks and chords etc, Mixer, sequencer with and without blocks, and the routing system that many have said translates over to the hardware studio environment, is less conducive to a beginner musician than a single VST instrument. The DAW is still the main factor and I don't see making "quality music" as being any easier for a person with a VST and say Logic or PT or Live or FL you name it. The learning curve is still the DAW. No one or two or three VST's are gonna make a beginner jump past the beginner learning curve. What basic building blocks can a VST teach that Reason can't in order to reach a level of making quality music?
I was not talking about « song composition » but about « quality of the sound ». I know it’s an endless subject. The only thing I want to say is, for a beginner or average musician, it’s harder to have « a good sound » with Reason because you’ve to add effects etc. (Watching
the sound is great but I don’t think a beginner will think of adding 3 reverbs to obtain this sound). With vst FX are within it so you have a « polished » sound from the start. I know that newer synths in Reason include FX but they were released « too late » to change the press / web feelings / writings about Reason regarding what is available aside.
Seb Audio ( :reason: 6.5 :PUF_balance: / Ableton Live 10 + RRP Lite 11-PX7)
https://maretranquillitatis.bandcamp.com/
https://ljseb.bandcamp.com/

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antic604
Posts: 655
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Post 25 Dec 2020

kuhliloach wrote:
24 Dec 2020
It feels like Logic has become the gold standard as far as quality, overall value, price / no-cost upgrades, organization, user interface, iOS integration, and the best feature set. Sadly, nobody is competing with this level of excellence ... They're not "priced to move" like Logic. There is an energy flow in the world of DAW's
Both are easy explained by one thing - almost infinite Apple's cash vault :)
Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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miyaru
Posts: 191
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Location: Zaanstad, The Netherlands

Post 25 Dec 2020

I used Cubase for at least 20 years before I switched to Ableton Live 4 years ago. The learning curve was steap to work fast with Live. Then in 2019 in November I switched to Reason 11 suite, and it was like coming home, in terms of ease of use. Maybe because of the expierence I have with DAW's, but mostly because Reason is not over complicated. I could be others call it a lack of functions, but for me it makes me make music, and that is what counts to me.......
Greetings from Miyaru.
Prodaw i7-7700, 16Gb Ram, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 3rd gen, Reason Suite 11, Live Suit 10, Push2, Presonus Eris E8, Lexicon MPX1,
Korg N1, Korg R3, NI Massive, Rob Papen's Predator 2, Sonarworks Reference 4 and Scaler.

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