Channel EQ (Reason classic) HPF adding gain?

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antic604
Posts: 648
Joined: 02 Apr 2020

Post 23 Dec 2020

friday wrote:
23 Dec 2020
You are right, I am an over analytical person.

But I am also in contact with some very experienced engineers (mastering engineers, producers) and they care about every dB on the master, to get competitive mixes. That's why I'm interested what happens in the whole chain of saturation, compression and summing, if it adds +4dB when I later deside to insert a HP at the beginning of this chain.

If no one would care, EQ's wouldn't have a phase linear mode ;-)
And that's fine. I too like to understand the tools I'm using and obsess over details, but your reaction was hilarious: what do I do now? how do I manage going forward? should I get ProQ instead? Etc.

No. Understand and accept the additional volume boost and correct for it, if that's really necessary.

Also, pre-ringing (that's the correct term, not "some ringing") for linear phase filters is a consequence of the technique and it's not necessarily a bad thing, you just have to - again - understand and accept that it's there and decide by listening if it makes the sound better or worse in every particular case.

Music tech enthusiast.
DAW, VST & hardware hoarder.
My "music": https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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selig
RE Developer
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 23 Dec 2020

visheshl wrote:
22 Dec 2020
i wonder are all producers so clinical about their production to notice a 2db difference here n there...?

genuine question...i go by the ear when mixing different plugins alter the sound differently...some eq plugin might be transparent but the other may add a few dbs, but i dont care as long as it sounds right to me....is music such a scientific subject that if a plugin adds a few dbs it makes a difference or is music still an artform ?

im curious...are you all concerned if a plugin is scientifically accurate or do you go by the ear ?

really curious
I read the question being asked in this thread as being about what is expected vs what actually happens. If you cut the bottom two octaves with a filter, you would expect the overall result to be LESS level. After all, you are removing a good bit of energy with those two octaves.
An analogy: if you turned your steering wheel left, and the car went only lightly right, would you still notice it? Yes, because of your "expectations".

In that regard the difference is actually MORE than +2 dB because you are anticipating a negative number as a result.

What does this mean? If your master is just under clipping, and you add a HP filter in order to clean up and remove some low end rumble expecting to get a little extra headroom in the exchange, you may end up clipping your mix (where you were "expecting" to actually gain a bit of headroom)! With regards to peak levels, that means you must reduce your output by 2dB or more to stay at the same peak level when adding an HP filter - more important on the master than on individual tracks but still...you don't want to give up 2dB if you don't have to do so!

As for your specific question, ear training helps you to be able to hear a 1-2 dB gain change if you cannot already do so. I practiced hearing 1, 3, and 6 dB changes (by making those exact changes) for years now, since working ITB (20+ years), and it can be learned fairly quickly. It's handy for being able to communicate a level change without being in the same room as a collaboration, for example. I know what 3 dB sounds like vs 1 dB vs 6 dB, and can figure out levels in between close enough for my work. I do the same thing with timing and pitch over the same time frame, hearing something out of tune and trying to guess sharp/flat and by how much, or rushing/dragging by how much. It's actually fun, a learning "game" if you will, where you can actually see improvement over time (which can be a huge motivator - why do something if you don't see any change?!?). In the end it just helps to move quicker by being able to more quickly identify and even quantify the things you hear.
Selig Audio, LLC

visheshl
Posts: 412
Joined: 27 Sep 2019

Post 23 Dec 2020

thanks for the explanation selig, i understood your point. its boosting when you're expecting a cut which is counterintuitive and should not happen. the car analogy was good.

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BRIGGS
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Location: Orange County California

Post 26 Dec 2020

Hmm....I'm going to go with 'feature not a bug' on this one. Gain sounds good.

Dial it out, if it's not working for you.
R11 Suite

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 9045
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 27 Dec 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
26 Dec 2020
Hmm....I'm going to go with 'feature not a bug' on this one. Gain sounds good.

Dial it out, if it's not working for you.
Apologies for hogging but I would describe the effect as neither a bug OR a feature - it is what it is (#itiswhatitis2020, my mantra for the past year).

I put it in the same category of other useful things to remember (and to act upon IF necessary), such as checking to see if a Bass DI needs a polarity flip compared to the amp channel (often times it does), remembering to adjust makeup gain (output volume) most of the time when using a compressor, and that true peak is often higher than digital peak metering, etc.

@BRIGGS +1 for "dial it out", best advice IMO!
Selig Audio, LLC

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BRIGGS
Posts: 1288
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

Post 27 Dec 2020

selig wrote:
27 Dec 2020
BRIGGS wrote:
26 Dec 2020
Hmm....I'm going to go with 'feature not a bug' on this one. Gain sounds good.

Dial it out, if it's not working for you.
Apologies for hogging but I would describe the effect as neither a bug OR a feature - it is what it is (#itiswhatitis2020, my mantra for the past year).

I put it in the same category of other useful things to remember (and to act upon IF necessary), such as checking to see if a Bass DI needs a polarity flip compared to the amp channel (often times it does), remembering to adjust makeup gain (output volume) most of the time when using a compressor, and that true peak is often higher than digital peak metering, etc.

@BRIGGS +1 for "dial it out", best advice IMO!
Which is why using your ears, is critical.

Btw, I must say.... having the SSL modules in the rack is super handy! :puf_smile:
R11 Suite

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moggadeet
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Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Post 28 Dec 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
27 Dec 2020
Which is why using your ears, is critical.

Btw, I must say.... having the SSL modules in the rack is super handy! :puf_smile:
Yes, I love the EQ in the rack as it teaches me to dial it in with my ears and not with my eyes.

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mcatalao
Posts: 1398
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 28 Dec 2020

Interestingly enough that 2 DB increase might in the end be a 2DB reduction in the final mix (and even result in an uneven result, adding and lowering to the final level on different sections due to different phases of low frequency content).

That's why EQ (and brickwall filtering for me is still part of EQ'ing) must always be done in context of the full mix and not only solo. The other thing is that I always think about most of the processes we do in the mixing stage at 2 different levels, the nominal or absolute value of things and the apparent result. While the +2db increase in the notch after the filtering frequency might add a bit of strength the overall weight of that track on the mix is for me what really matters in its context.
And my experience, HPF can take care of more issues than the most obscure side chaining and parallel compression techniques you can remember of even with the inevitable added "notch" from the filter.

The ultimate, prime and constant question is: does this change I did make my mix sound better?
If the answer is yes the 2 db increase is very relative (unless it makes your final mix clip, but that's another matter).

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