New and improved filters for NN-19 and NNXT ? What do you think?

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seqoi
Posts: 399
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

Post 20 Nov 2020

Seeing and looking in the "secret" folder of the latest Reason Goodie bag I just revived my old dream.

Imagine NN-19 and NNXT receive new and improved filter. What?

Ok before I start let me be the first one to say yes old filters sound fine to some degree. But they were developed 20 years ago when audio DSP was in its infancy. Not exactly, but plugins and their filter were in its infancy plus Reason at that time was focused more on performance above quality. I never liked them especially not for sweeps when Resonance is halfway or up. Ouch.

Now imagine they receive the latest DSP wizardry like zero delay feedback filters, squelchy and snappy liquid filters (put any buzzword here). Like the one we already have in Synapse and other synths.

I do remember when they updated Reason from 1 to 2 or something like that, then they improved Mixer EQ modules. But to make older projects compatible they left "old" sounding EQ switchable on the Mixer back panel. So no one was harmed and people got new and improved Mixer EQs. Those who wanted "old" EQs could easily enable them on the backside of the mixer.

I was just wondering if it would be possible to do the same thing for NNXT and NN19. To build and develop new filters in them but anyone wanting old filter modes could easily get them by turning them on - on the backside.

What do you think?
IMO i am salivating for new filters in NN-19 and being able to control it zoomed on my two touch screens. Like some hitech sampler device. Hahaha

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Boombastix
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Post 20 Nov 2020

The squelch also has to do with the envelopes, so they would have to redesign that as well. I'm not sure, but do RS even have one synth with great filters?
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Loque
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Post 20 Nov 2020

I always would like to see improvements. Why not make it like Thor with its semi modular approach?

I personally didn't care much about the filters in the samplers. I would like to see improved and automatable loop control.
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antic604
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Post 20 Nov 2020

Considering Reason is all about backwards compatibility and their track record of patching their devices more than 1-2 months after release is pretty poor (I can only point to wavetable & sample loading to Europa and Scenic respectively, I think?) - I'd not hold my breath for it.

A new, modern sampler would be great though.
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adfielding
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Post 20 Nov 2020

seqoi wrote:
20 Nov 2020
I do remember when they updated Reason from 1 to 2 or something like that, then they improved Mixer EQ modules. But to make older projects compatible they left "old" sounding EQ switchable on the Mixer back panel. So no one was harmed and people got new and improved Mixer EQs. Those who wanted "old" EQs could easily enable them on the backside of the mixer.
Yeah, I'd have no problem with seeing filter tweaks provided there was an option to use the original filters as, despite their age, those inform quite a lot of the character of each respective device (as filters tend to!).

seqoi
Posts: 399
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

Post 20 Nov 2020

Loque wrote:
20 Nov 2020
I always would like to see improvements. Why not make it like Thor with its semi modular approach?

I personally didn't care much about the filters in the samplers. I would like to see improved and automatable loop control.
Your suggestion is spot on, it's just that these two samplers are pretty much perfect (arguably - for me). I like their workflow. NN19 for quick thing, NNXT for advanced sound design. I just think their filters are bad sounding and some improvements (with backward compatibility) would breathe fresh life into them. That being said I wouldn't like to see anything new in that regard actually. I mean apart from filters.

I have AKAI S6000 and I had E-MU samplers. If you read historical forum topics on these instruments you will realize that most important factor when choosing one over another is filters and how they sound. So imho filter design (also converters) is playing a major role in how instrument will process sound. If you ask which hardware sampler is better almost every time with no exception people will tell you E-MU has more warmer (beefy) filters (z-plane) while AKAI is more clinical and has less filters which are weird when compared to E-MU but this is down to personal preference. My point is - filters are important in sampler.

Thanks for your comment. Have a great weekend.

TritoneAddiction
Posts: 2635
Joined: 29 Aug 2015
Location: Sweden

Post 20 Nov 2020

I would rather they just made new better devices instead of updating the old ones, unless it's something very simple that doesn't require much time on their part.
Personally I'd have much more fun playing around with something new and fresh. Make something similar but better, with new features and a new look. Looking at Subtractor, NNXT, Thor etc just feels "old", but not in a nice nostalgic way. Let's just say that the current R1 challenge didn't inspire me that much.

tanni
Posts: 131
Joined: 19 Jul 2015

Post 20 Nov 2020

I think it would be the best way, if they could do a new Sampler device with new Filters, Envelopes, Timestretching, etc. which can load the old format of nn19 and nnxt.
Then you have it together: backwards compatibility and actual, new features. And Reasonstudios doesn't have to change their old NNXT or NN19 devices.
Best way in my opinion for all....

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BRIGGS
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Post 20 Nov 2020

Use Grain.

tanni
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Post 20 Nov 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
20 Nov 2020
Use Grain.
Yeah, Grain is very good for single wav files.
But doesnt support Multisamples, Velocity switches/crossfades, Key crossfades and all that stuff for authenthic Instrument building/sampling or recreating in a modern sampler for example.
I want to have a new sampler, which can load all my nnxt libraries I have and gives me more functions, like good Filters, Keygroup crossfading, more flexible Envelopes and such things.

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Creativemind
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Post 20 Nov 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
20 Nov 2020
Use Grain.
No thanks. It's not a nice device visually. Can't even bring myself to use it plus it's a granular synth.
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Creativemind
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Post 20 Nov 2020

tanni wrote:
20 Nov 2020
BRIGGS wrote:
20 Nov 2020
Use Grain.
Yeah, Grain is very good for single wav files.
But doesnt support Multisamples, Velocity switches/crossfades, Key crossfades and all that stuff for authenthic Instrument building/sampling or recreating in a modern sampler for example.
I want to have a new sampler, which can load all my nnxt libraries I have and gives me more functions, like good Filters, Keygroup crossfading, more flexible Envelopes and such things.
And the all important "follow song" mode (like Studio One's Sample One which is switch off and on-able) which will not change the speed when you play the sample up and down the keyboard.
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BRIGGS
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Location: Orange County California

Post 20 Nov 2020

tanni wrote:
20 Nov 2020
BRIGGS wrote:
20 Nov 2020
Use Grain.
Yeah, Grain is very good for single wav files.
But doesnt support Multisamples, Velocity switches/crossfades, Key crossfades and all that stuff for authenthic Instrument building/sampling or recreating in a modern sampler for example.
I want to have a new sampler, which can load all my nnxt libraries I have and gives me more functions, like good Filters, Keygroup crossfading, more flexible Envelopes and such things.
While the NNXT/NN-19 filters don't sound nearly as silky smooth as a Moog ladder. They do the job.

At the end of the day, if I need good filters, I go with the device that has them.

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bxbrkrz
Posts: 1924
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Post 20 Nov 2020

They updated Dr. Rex and the RV7000. Maybe some hopes for adding options, not just the hi rez redesign. Yes? No?

chaosroyale
Posts: 476
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

Post Yesterday

Reason almost NEVER updates devices. The Octorex and the RV7000 are the only 2 to get a proper upgrade. Europa got sample loading which it should have had from the start as a (soon after release) point update and a couple of devices got the "sample" button. That's it. In 20 years.

I used to want an NN-XT with updated filters and proper automation for sample points, but now it would probably be better for them to make a new sampler with a new UI. Same with Kong. But they won't. Why? Here's the problem - and why I do not hold out any hope of an advanced sampler or drum machine in Reason. The Reason release policy for devices goes like this:

1. Release a device.
2. Forget about it for 10 years until it is pretty out of date compared to the competition.
3. Make a completely new device which kinda does the same thing, and has some new features, but doesn't have all the features of the original.
4. Now you have 2 kinda crappy devices instead of one good device.
5. Wait 10 years.
6. Repeat. Now you have 3 crappy devices, (and the original is 20 years out of date).

Seriously, how many more crappy drum machines does Reason need?

I think RS saw "Grain" as their solution to NN-Xt being out of date. But as someone else has pointed out, it isn't. Maybe you could say it can be used to replace the NN-19, for single samples. I personally think grain should have been one of the engines for the "NN-NeXT" new sampler, like in Kontakt, maybe it still could, but I have zero hope for it.

It's frustrating because NN-XT get's so much right with its organizing of layers and groups (I think I prefer it to Kontakt in this regard), but it really sucks as an actual sampler, especially for playback features and editing.

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