Why are the reason users a minority?

[avasopht]

I guess I'm happy we can have it both way, personally. But... I digress.. I don't even remember what my point was. LOL

This is how I see it.

I have no issues with VSTs in Reason, plus there's a VST3 workaround if I ever do need to use Zenology.

Reason Rack Plugin works great, and I've happily used it as an insert effect for a few tracks in Live.

Basically, if you ever wanted to use Reason as a VST instrument instead of ReWire (back when it didn't host VSTs), well now you have it right next to your other VSTs.

And if you ever wanted to play some VSTs inside your Reason rack, they've got you covered for that too.

I'm more interested in what they have made possible rather than what is not (e.g. running VSTs inside Reason Rack Plugin) because compared to what I had 5 years ago, this is a godsend.

For all the improvements they could make, I know that what I have in this rack is a massive powerhouse.

[moneykube]

too many with a lack of reason

[QVprod]

Well, that was admittedly a tortured and overly dramatic metaphor for jumping them into the deep waters of VST-hosting DAWs!
When VST was implemented, Reason went overnight from being masters of their own little game, to joining the big boys in a game that they are, frankly, not always very good at.

Now that Reason competes directly with the full fledged DAWs, it gets tiresome to constantly hear that Reason has to catch up, when what we really should be concerned about is how it has to improve. Those two aren't necessarily always the same thing.

What would have happened, in terms of user experience as well as company health, if Reason had NOT implemented VSTs, is of course anyone's guess.

They’ve always been a competitor to other DAWs. Hence many dropping ship or not being interested at all due to lack of features including lack of VST support. Speaking primarily as far as music creators are concerned, pretty much anything that has it’s own sequencer is a competing product.

[guitfnky]

the thing is, catching up in some very basic areas is the same thing as improving, at this point. I agree Reason doesn’t have to do all the same things as other DAWs—in fact that’s why most of us love it. but implementing basic features doesn’t mean Reason will somehow look and feel anything like other DAWs.

[AnotherMathias]

In practice I agree with everybody, and think that having the option of VSTs hasn't really hurt the user experience much.
Even though I have a couple of plugins that I like, right now I'm running Reason completely without them, out of some bizarre desire for "purity". There are just so many amazing Reason units to explore (especially with Suite) that I feel that it could keep me busy for years, with distraction from even more toys.

I do have Studio One 5 and Logic Pro X, so occasionally I play with those instead, and I do use the Reason Rack Plugin with those. in fact, in Studio 5 I'm only using RRP, plus the native FX (but not their instruments).
I've found that the Logic Pro X auto sampler is very good for grabbing sampler material off other plugins to import into the Reason samplers.

Of course we have always been clamoring for features that other software has, I've been guilty of that myself (both Studio One and Logic Pro does quantizing much better).
But the hard truth is that we are sometimes wrong.

There are still a few music creation softwares that retain their quirkiness, and don't appear to attempt to compete in the DAW scene at all. Renoise and Korg Gadget comes to mind. Pre-VST Reason fell somewhere in between those and DAWs.

My initial point (of VST having been a step in the wrong direction) was that on a list of popularity of all the DAW competitors, if Reason has to be near the bottom, perhaps it's better to not be on that list at all?

[QVprod]

In practice I agree with everybody, and think that having the option of VSTs hasn't really hurt the user experience much.
Even though I have a couple of plugins that I like, right now I'm running Reason completely without them, out of some bizarre desire for "purity". There are just so many amazing Reason units to explore (especially with Suite) that I feel that it could keep me busy for years, with distraction from even more toys.

I do have Studio One 5 and Logic Pro X, so occasionally I play with those instead, and I do use the Reason Rack Plugin with those. in fact, in Studio 5 I'm only using RRP, plus the native FX (but not their instruments).
I've found that the Logic Pro X auto sampler is very good for grabbing sampler material off other plugins to import into the Reason samplers.

Of course we have always been clamoring for features that other software has, I've been guilty of that myself (both Studio One and Logic Pro does quantizing much better).
But the hard truth is that we are sometimes wrong.

There are still a few music creation softwares that retain their quirkiness, and don't appear to attempt to compete in the DAW scene at all. Renoise and Korg Gadget comes to mind. Pre-VST Reason fell somewhere in between those and DAWs.

My initial point (of VST having been a step in the wrong direction) was that on a list of popularity of all the DAW competitors, if Reason has to be near the bottom, perhaps it's better to not be on that list at all?

Like stated above. VST didn’t put Reason on that list. Reason was always on that list. They didn’t drop in popularity to my knowledge after VST support. If there was any negative affect from VST, it was on developer interest in Rack Extensions. However for a person choosing to buy new music software or upgrade current software, Reason was always in competition with whatever else was out because regardless of VST it covered most of the same functions as everything else. Especially once they included audio recording.

[Faastwalker]

If I was the ONLY person using Reason, but Reason was still at the place it is today, I'd have no problem with that at all

[AnotherMathias]

Like stated above. VST didn’t put Reason on that list. Reason was always on that list. They didn’t drop in popularity to my knowledge after VST support. If there was any negative affect from VST, it was on developer interest in Rack Extensions. However for a person choosing to buy new music software or upgrade current software, Reason was always in competition with whatever else was out because regardless of VST it covered most of the same functions as everything else. Especially once they included audio recording.

Possibly, but all that is hard to say with certainty. I can equally well imagine long time Reason users straying away to other DAWs, once they realize that their new VST instruments are happier in a different environment.

Mostly I just imagine the Reason designers a few years ago, especially the long time visionaries, sadly having to admit defeat after all these years, and give up on their “castle garden” ideals.

Now I’m done being dramatic. Reason is still my favorite DAW-like software. Now, Reason Studios, hire a dozen excellent programmers, and finally make everybody happy!

[Propellerhands]

Let us tell this story.

Why are the reason users a minority?

There are so many daws, why can't I see any signs of increase?

Why don't modern YouTubers use reason?

Because the latest version on piratebay i reason 5.

A good way to start producing is by using pirated software. Alot of teenagers can't afford to pay 300 euros and rather pirate FL-studios or ableton for free.

Reason was more popular of youtube when the latest version was pirated. I started with a pirated reason 4 version when i was 18 years old.

This. Like many others, I also started at version 3.0 then 4.01, both illegal and only after many years legalized and will upgrade for Reason 12 if it gets released. Piracy is what makes software known and used around the globe.

[chaosroyale]

On the other hand, me, and a few other users on this board, are on record that we only stayed with Reason because they finally included VST. I was going to drop Reason entirely, but being able to use VSTs in the rack gave it a new life. With the performance update, I think the implementation of VST in Reason is very good and fits the Rack very well. Sidechaining and so on is easy with the extra inputs on the back of the device.

Like stated above. VST didn’t put Reason on that list. Reason was always on that list. They didn’t drop in popularity to my knowledge after VST support. If there was any negative affect from VST, it was on developer interest in Rack Extensions. However for a person choosing to buy new music software or upgrade current software, Reason was always in competition with whatever else was out because regardless of VST it covered most of the same functions as everything else. Especially once they included audio recording.

Possibly, but all that is hard to say with certainty. I can equally well imagine long time Reason users straying away to other DAWs, once they realize that their new VST instruments are happier in a different environment.

Mostly I just imagine the Reason designers a few years ago, especially the long time visionaries, sadly having to admit defeat after all these years, and give up on their “castle garden” ideals.

Now I’m done being dramatic. Reason is still my favorite DAW-like software. Now, Reason Studios, hire a dozen excellent programmers, and finally make everybody happy!

[arqui]

On the other hand, me, and a few other users on this board, are on record that we only stayed with Reason because they finally included VST. I was going to drop Reason entirely, but being able to use VSTs in the rack gave it a new life. With the performance update, I think the implementation of VST in Reason is very good and fits the Rack very well. Sidechaining and so on is easy with the extra inputs on the back of the device.

Possibly, but all that is hard to say with certainty. I can equally well imagine long time Reason users straying away to other DAWs, once they realize that their new VST instruments are happier in a different environment.

Mostly I just imagine the Reason designers a few years ago, especially the long time visionaries, sadly having to admit defeat after all these years, and give up on their “castle garden” ideals.

Now I’m done being dramatic. Reason is still my favorite DAW-like software. Now, Reason Studios, hire a dozen excellent programmers, and finally make everybody happy!

Sidechain with izotope Neutron or fabfilter eq and Comp don´t work in Reason 11

[chaosroyale]

Fabfilters sidechains absolutely DO work with Reason, as confirmed by Fabfilter themselves.
https://www.fabfilter.com/forum/6220/pr ... ?replies=6
Do you have an older version?

I have not used Neutron with Reason, so I cannot say for sure about that.

On the other hand, me, and a few other users on this board, are on record that we only stayed with Reason because they finally included VST. I was going to drop Reason entirely, but being able to use VSTs in the rack gave it a new life. With the performance update, I think the implementation of VST in Reason is very good and fits the Rack very well. Sidechaining and so on is easy with the extra inputs on the back of the device.

Sidechain with izotope Neutron or fabfilter eq and Comp don´t work in Reason 11

[EnochLight]

I have not used Neutron with Reason, so I cannot say for sure about that.

I can (I own Neutron 3 Advanced). It's busted, because Reason still doesn't support VST3 (despite RRP being a VST3) and iZotope's sidechaining is only "officially" supported in VST3. Their VST2 implementation is a buggy workaround that doesn't work in Reason 11, and iZotope has no intention to fix it unfortunately.

[arqui]

I have not used Neutron with Reason, so I cannot say for sure about that.

I can (I own Neutron 3 Advanced). It's busted, because Reason still doesn't support VST3 (despite RRP being a VST3) and iZotope's sidechaining is only "officially" supported in VST3. Their VST2 implementation is a buggy workaround that doesn't work in Reason 11, and iZotope has no intention to fix it unfortunately.

the weird thing is that it works fine in Reason 10

[Rackman]

The honest answer is that other DAW have invested in consist improvements and innovation, while Reason Studios have done as much as possible to capitalise on existing tech while investing in REs and abortive projects (Reason iOS, Ballance, the other iOS apps etc). They are now really, really far behind the others, with 'new' features bolted on and half-formed (e.g. VST). At best they are playing catch-up with little appetite for it, and at worst they are slipping even further behind the competition.

[chaosroyale]

This is the real Elephant in the room. In 2001, Reason was "innovative", "bold", "creative".
In 2020, Reason is "conservative", "outdated".

Stereotype of Reason users in 2001; hardcore experimental gear nerds.

Stereotype of Reason users in 2020; washed-up old guys saying "I used to make music on a 4-track cassette, Thor is good enough for me, VPS Avenger is too modern..."

The honest answer is that other DAW have invested in consist improvements and innovation, while Reason Studios have done as much as possible to capitalise on existing tech while investing in REs and abortive projects (Reason iOS, Ballance, the other iOS apps etc). They are now really, really far behind the others, with 'new' features bolted on and half-formed (e.g. VST). At best they are playing catch-up with little appetite for it, and at worst they are slipping even further behind the competition.

[EnochLight]

I can (I own Neutron 3 Advanced). It's busted, because Reason still doesn't support VST3 (despite RRP being a VST3) and iZotope's sidechaining is only "officially" supported in VST3. Their VST2 implementation is a buggy workaround that doesn't work in Reason 11, and iZotope has no intention to fix it unfortunately.

the weird thing is that it works fine in Reason 10

Indeed. Like I said, iZotope's VST2 support is buggy. R10 supports VST2 to spec, so when devs use workarounds to get features to work, it's hit or miss. Apparently it was a hit with R10! No clue what changed in R11.

[arqui]

the weird thing is that it works fine in Reason 10

Indeed. Like I said, iZotope's VST2 support is buggy. R10 supports VST2 to spec, so when devs use workarounds to get features to work, it's hit or miss. Apparently it was a hit with R10! No clue what changed in R11.

yes, you are absolutely right !!! it's very strange!!!
Greetings.

[DaveyG]

This is the real Elephant in the room. In 2001, Reason was "innovative", "bold", "creative".
In 2020, Reason is "conservative", "outdated".

This.
100% this.

[AnotherMathias]

This is the real Elephant in the room. In 2001, Reason was "innovative", "bold", "creative".
In 2020, Reason is "conservative", "outdated".

This.
100% this.

Yep. Sadly it seems the they lost interest in developing and evolving the core Reason software.

And this is coming somebody who used to record in a 4 track (I still have one), and has no idea what
VPN Attacker is.

Has it gotten to the point where the best coarse of action is to get a new team to do a total reimagining, building on all the existing rack units?

[ShelLuser]

They’ve always been a competitor to other DAWs.

I have to disagree on that one. Reason 4 couldn't even process any audio inputs, Live 8 could as well as pretty much every other DAW in existence. However... Reason 4 could be rewired into Live (or other DAW's) as a rewire client and thus be 'connected' to your main DAW. Key point here is that Reason never supported the host aspect of rewire, only the client part. A DAW like Live supported both.

Each to their own but that doesn't sound like competing to me, it seems more focused on co-existing (and IMO they did an amazing job too).

Within that context of connectivity there actually isn't too much difference between Reason 4 rewired and the current rack plugin.

Speaking primarily as far as music creators are concerned, pretty much anything that has it’s own sequencer is a competing product.

So Maschine is now considered a competitor within the DAW market? Sorry, but I can't take that seriously even though I'll be the first to advocate for the amazing potential which Maschine provides. It's an awesome product which can be used both stand alone as well as within a DAW. It has its own sequencer and better yet: even has a dedicated controller from which you can do pretty much anything.

Heck: Maschine even ships with its own audio interface so hooking up a mic and some monitors or headphone is peanuts.

But it's still not a DAW and really.. it can't compete with neither Live nor Reason. Yet it still has its own sequencer, and a pretty good one at that.

[DougalDarkly]

Stereotype of Reason users in 2001; hardcore experimental gear nerds.

Stereotype of Reason users in 2020; washed-up old guys saying "I used to make music on a 4-track cassette, Thor is good enough for me, VPS Avenger is too modern..."

This is the biggest shame for me - from all of their marketing, including their new weekly YouTube thing, it's clear they've done their market research and concluded exactly that - their user base is washed-up old guys.

As a washed-up old guy myself, I think RS could lean more into the geekier side of things - especially as the geek pretty much rules in most modern music styles these days - whether hardware or software.

Reason has some really good stuff going for it when making Techno (like I do) for instance, but the audience just want to hear Ryan's banjo...

I think they've decided what their market is, and they don't 'need' to appeal to young producers, just old ones - like I said, shame.

[EnochLight]

I think they've decided what their market is, and they don't 'need' to appeal to young producers, just old ones - like I said, shame.

But this couldn't be farther from the truth. Literally all of their marketing focuses on experimenting and creating new sounds, and Reason being a playground for exactly that. Are we even watching the same marketing videos? The clips they share on Facebook, Instagram, etc - are all "experiment and make new sounds!" The exact stuff that would typically appeal to young producers...

[chaosroyale]

There's nothing wrong with being old of course! Bowie was innovative right to the end, and Trent Reznor is no spring chicken any more but still doing cutting edge sound creation.

There's popular youtubers like Andrew Huang and others getting millions of views talking about modular synths to young and up-and-coming music makers!!! You'd think RS would leverage that kind of interest to promote Reason as a modular rack-in-a-box that is different from other music software, and lets you get really experimental.

Then again, the lack of CV in/out on recent devices and focus on romplers/toy devices makes it seems like that's not the direction they want to go in. Not to mention the current limit of 64 samples for CV i.e. no audio rate modulation, which is going to be a weight dragging them down forever if they insist on backwards compatibility.

I'd be fine if they chose a direction and told the nerds like me to fuck off. If they decided to be a "soundtoys rack clone", or a mobile app toy maker, or whatever, and just really went for it. But without some strong direction, they are just going to fade away gradually.

Stereotype of Reason users in 2001; hardcore experimental gear nerds.

Stereotype of Reason users in 2020; washed-up old guys saying "I used to make music on a 4-track cassette, Thor is good enough for me, VPS Avenger is too modern..."

This is the biggest shame for me - from all of their marketing, including their new weekly YouTube thing, it's clear they've done their market research and concluded exactly that - their user base is washed-up old guys.

As a washed-up old guy myself, I think RS could lean more into the geekier side of things - especially as the geek pretty much rules in most modern music styles these days - whether hardware or software.

Reason has some really good stuff going for it when making Techno (like I do) for instance, but the audience just want to hear Ryan's banjo...

I think they've decided what their market is, and they don't 'need' to appeal to young producers, just old ones - like I said, shame.

[QVprod]

They’ve always been a competitor to other DAWs.

I have to disagree on that one. Reason 4 couldn't even process any audio inputs, Live 8 could as well as pretty much every other DAW in existence. However... Reason 4 could be rewired into Live (or other DAW's) as a rewire client and thus be 'connected' to your main DAW. Key point here is that Reason never supported the host aspect of rewire, only the client part. A DAW like Live supported both.

Each to their own but that doesn't sound like competing to me, it seems more focused on co-existing (and IMO they did an amazing job too).

Within that context of connectivity there actually isn't too much difference between Reason 4 rewired and the current rack plugin.

Speaking primarily as far as music creators are concerned, pretty much anything that has it’s own sequencer is a competing product.

So Maschine is now considered a competitor within the DAW market? Sorry, but I can't take that seriously even though I'll be the first to advocate for the amazing potential which Maschine provides. It's an awesome product which can be used both stand alone as well as within a DAW. It has its own sequencer and better yet: even has a dedicated controller from which you can do pretty much anything.

Heck: Maschine even ships with its own audio interface so hooking up a mic and some monitors or headphone is peanuts.

But it's still not a DAW and really.. it can't compete with neither Live nor Reason. Yet it still has its own sequencer, and a pretty good one at that.

True for both Reason 4 and Machine:

Records midi ✓
Has instruments/presets /sounds for use in creating music. ✓
Has a sequencer to arrange a song ✓

Are these not DAW features? The lack of audio recording in earlier versions of Reason was only an issue to those who needed it. Many didn't and many still don't.

So again, to a person who had nothing and needed to choose one software to start out with, Reason was in the same consideration as any of the DAWs.

Hence - Competing product.

Lack of audio recording was just a reason to choose something else. Same would apply for Machine. If you drop the semantics of the term "DAW" (since they all produce audio) it's all music making software with very similar functionality.