Tape Wobble

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Billy
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Post 14 Oct 2020

guitfnky wrote:
14 Oct 2020
yeah, always best to try it out yourself. you don't need to change the delay time to get it to still wobble is I guess what I'm getting at. leaving it at 1 ms gives you a pretty nice wobble.

BUT, I did get curious, because I have suspected the delay time does have an effect (just never dug far enough to find out what it was before)--just fired up a session, and tested it out.

I set up a Subtractor going through The Echo, turned the Wobble all the way up, and tried the Delay Time in three different positions. then I bounced the track and opened in Pitch Editor to see what was going on...

The Echo wobble.jpg

so here are my takeaways--
- Delay Time does factor in, to a degree
- lower Delay Time seems to introduce a measure of stability to the signal (still plenty of wobble, but not wobbling all the time)
- the biggest factor higher Delay Time settings have is that the wobble becomes very unstable, with no periods where the pitch remains steady
- a smaller factor of higher Delay Time settings is that it seems to slightly scale up the depth of the wobble
- appears there's some sort of point of diminishing returns with both stability and depth scaling provided by the Delay Time--in the middle and right examples, stability and depth appear to be about the same, despite an approximate doubling in the Delay Time
- the wobble does appear to be randomized (always kind of assumed that, but now I know :))

I guess I've never had a problem using a 1 ms Delay Time because it sounds a little more like the real thing to me--most of the shifty tape decks I've used in the past were never THAT shifty. :lol:
Thanks, at least one of us is close enough to a daw to check, please see the above post! I was already acknowledging your previous post. ;)
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guitfnky
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Post 14 Oct 2020

that’s not sad! I would love to have a full color printed manual! I actually printed out the entire Reason 5 manual way back when—it was awesome, even in black and white.

Billy
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Post 14 Oct 2020

I still have a shiny V1 manual in pristine condition in the box with the cd's hidden in the dark :shock:
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guitfnky
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Post 14 Oct 2020

the cool thing about that is, probably almost all of that v1 manual is still accurate today in v11.

alright, I’ma stop derailing the thread now. 😅

Billy
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Post 14 Oct 2020

So either way there is some control but not as much as with an actual tape emulator.
However the drift effect works and sounds good enough that spending money is not really necessary.

I'm still to try the cf setup described in a previous post, and would still like to hear some more.
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guitfnky
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Post 14 Oct 2020

I've tried a similar test on some of the other options. Satin is interesting, because the rate of wow and flutter is based on the tape speed setting--but it's also the most predictable in the sense that the wow & flutter seem to be just simple oscillators with no randomization (makes sense since it's emulating high-end studio hardware, not a crappy home cassette tape deck). Cassette, the one from Wavesfactory can be very similar to The Echo's Wobble technique, especially when you set the Delay Time a bit higher on The Echo--or alternatively, you can get it to work more like Satin's wow & flutter by turning down the randomization. also, it has the benefit of allowing much more control over the individual speeds, and you can turn on/off the other tape emulation features.

The Echo would be my first choice, because with a few tweaks it's the simplest to get something I like, and Cassette is my second choice, because if I needed to get really tweaky and specific, it does everything The Echo does and more.

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selig
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Post 14 Oct 2020

I too love The Echo for this, but you DO have to use a high enough delay to allow for the amount of pitch modulation desired. A delay of 8 ms can accommodate a small amount of pitch mod (20% on Pulsar), but if you try to modulate more, or lower the delay, you run out of "room" to get the desired effect.
To be absolutely sure of getting enough room I use a delay of 16 ms.
Why not use the internal LFO? Because it does a "stereo" effect which 99% of the time I LOVE, but not in this case. The "effect" is simply to invert the LFO in one channel vs the other, so you get a lovely effect but not a clear "singular" wobble.
So basically, I use the built in Wobble as "flutter", and Pulsar as "wow". BTW 0.75 Hz is the wow for 45 RPM and 56 Hz is the "wow" for 33 1/3 RPM, and with Pulsar you can use the 1+2 output and mix in a little slow random from LFO2 for an affect more like tape.
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Billy
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Post 14 Oct 2020

selig wrote:
14 Oct 2020
BTW 0.75 Hz is the wow for 45 RPM and 56 Hz is the "wow" for 33 1/3 RPM, and with Pulsar you can use the 1+2 output and mix in a little slow random from LFO2 for an affect more like tape.
That is an excellent post and answer a question I've been searching for all day. :thumbs_up:
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Billy
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Post 14 Oct 2020

selig wrote:
14 Oct 2020
I too love The Echo for this, but you DO have to use a high enough delay to allow for the amount of pitch modulation desired. A delay of 8 ms can accommodate a small amount of pitch mod (20% on Pulsar), but if you try to modulate more, or lower the delay, you run out of "room" to get the desired effect.
To be absolutely sure of getting enough room I use a delay of 16 ms.
Why not use the internal LFO? Because it does a "stereo" effect which 99% of the time I LOVE, but not in this case. The "effect" is simply to invert the LFO in one channel vs the other, so you get a lovely effect but not a clear "singular" wobble.
So basically, I use the built in Wobble as "flutter", and Pulsar as "wow". BTW 0.75 Hz is the wow for 45 RPM and 56 Hz is the "wow" for 33 1/3 RPM, and with Pulsar you can use the 1+2 output and mix in a little slow random from LFO2 for an affect more like tape.
Any chance you could build a cmb and post? :roll:
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Ottostrom
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Post 14 Oct 2020

Billy wrote:
14 Oct 2020
selig wrote:
14 Oct 2020
I too love The Echo for this, but you DO have to use a high enough delay to allow for the amount of pitch modulation desired. A delay of 8 ms can accommodate a small amount of pitch mod (20% on Pulsar), but if you try to modulate more, or lower the delay, you run out of "room" to get the desired effect.
To be absolutely sure of getting enough room I use a delay of 16 ms.
Why not use the internal LFO? Because it does a "stereo" effect which 99% of the time I LOVE, but not in this case. The "effect" is simply to invert the LFO in one channel vs the other, so you get a lovely effect but not a clear "singular" wobble.
So basically, I use the built in Wobble as "flutter", and Pulsar as "wow". BTW 0.75 Hz is the wow for 45 RPM and 56 Hz is the "wow" for 33 1/3 RPM, and with Pulsar you can use the 1+2 output and mix in a little slow random from LFO2 for an affect more like tape.
Any chance you could build a cmb and post? :roll:
I would also be interested in one of Seligs custom combis :mrgreen:
Aim for progress, not perfection.

EdGrip
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Joined: 03 Jun 2016

Post 14 Oct 2020

The glory of modulating the delay time knob (on The Echo or any delay device you like, really, so long as it responds like a proper analogue delay in respect to time adjustments) is that the modulation "LFO"
can be any CV signal you like. You can use the envelopes in Sweeper or Europa, with random waves drawn in. You can have two or three of those feeding into a CV-combining spider device, to create a nearly-random generative-ish tape warble, with one envelope playing the "wow" role, another the "flutter" role. You can use a matrix sequencer to trigger a third or fourth envelope, only occasionally in 1-shot mode - say to mimick a more extreme sticking-then-jumping capstan sound.

You can't yank the "tape" ahead of time, only behind it - because the future hasn't happened yet. So these effects have to be created around a delayed signal, which means they might well need a bit of adjustment relative to the timeline - depending on how wild you're wobblin'. One way to do this is to bounce and nudge, another is to use the delay compensation feature. This can't happen automatically, because the whole point of the delay device is to introduce delay so Reason isn't going to automatically un-delay the delay device.
You'll have to adjust the delay compensation by ear - the delay time is being modulated, so it's a moving target! Just set it where it floats around the middle.

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Loque
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Post 14 Oct 2020

Looks like The Echo gets a lot of love and ppl use it in very different ways. And with the tape stuff it's very obvious that Propellerhead had forgotton to add CV for some controls...
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AnotherMathias
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Joined: 29 Sep 2020

Post 15 Oct 2020

For those who have the Reason Processed Pianos RE (or Reason Suite 11), there's another way to introduce a wobble without adding any delay. (in fairness, I haven't measured to make sure that no delay happens)

Instead of using Processed Pianos as an instrument, you would patch your signal through the FX block. The effect you want to get at is the frequency shifter.
Not to be confused with a pitch shifter, this underrated effect shifts all frequencies up or down by the same amount (in Hertz) independently of where they sit in the spectrum. This is quite different from shifting the musical pitch. For example, if you take a bassy sine wave at 100 Hz and shift it up 100 Hz, you now hear it one octave up at 200 Hz. But if you play the same sine wave five octaves up, which would be 3200 Hz, this will now play at 3300 Hz - just a small fraction of an octave up.

Typically this produces clangorous ring modulation-like inharmonic effects, but you can also apply just a small amount of shift, and mix it with the clean signal, to achieve an interesting barber-pole type phasing.

BUT... if you are careful and only shift it just a little (and make sure that you are listening to a 100% effected sound), you can get a fairly clean and un-delayed pitch shift.
In Processed Pianos a basic Freq-Shifter settings might be:
Range: 50% (this sets how sensitive the Depth knob is), Depth: 0 (because this will be modulated in a bipolar fashion by LFOs), Feedback: 0 (unless you want a phaser effect), Dry/Wet: 100% wet (unless you want a chorusing effect).

Processed Pianos has two LFOs, an envelope follower, and a small mod matrix. It's fun to play with a mix of the two LFOs at different speeds and waveforms, both LFOs modulating the Depth of the Freq-Shifter. The LFO has a "drift" waveform, but I'm not sure if it's any different from a standard soft-random waveform. Within the small modulation range that you might need for a tape wobble, the artifacts of shifting the frequency, rather than the pitch, are minimal.

Am I missing any other ways to get a Frequency Shifter in the rack?
Before the Eventide digital harmonizers started showing up in the early 80's they were possibly the only static (non-LFO) way to subtly pitch-shift (or not so subtly mangle) a signal. In the analog domain these were rare and very expensive units.

Of course, the wobble is just a small part of tape emulation. You also need some tape compression and saturation, and perhaps some EQ and hiss. My favorite way to get tape compression might still be the "Tape" setting, with the compression dial set fairly high. Or if you have Umph Retro, you can loop your signal through that tape emulation, which adds tape hiss and hum, if you want to go crazy.

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selig
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Post 16 Oct 2020

Billy wrote:
14 Oct 2020
selig wrote:
14 Oct 2020
I too love The Echo for this, but you DO have to use a high enough delay to allow for the amount of pitch modulation desired. A delay of 8 ms can accommodate a small amount of pitch mod (20% on Pulsar), but if you try to modulate more, or lower the delay, you run out of "room" to get the desired effect.
To be absolutely sure of getting enough room I use a delay of 16 ms.
Why not use the internal LFO? Because it does a "stereo" effect which 99% of the time I LOVE, but not in this case. The "effect" is simply to invert the LFO in one channel vs the other, so you get a lovely effect but not a clear "singular" wobble.
So basically, I use the built in Wobble as "flutter", and Pulsar as "wow". BTW 0.75 Hz is the wow for 45 RPM and 56 Hz is the "wow" for 33 1/3 RPM, and with Pulsar you can use the 1+2 output and mix in a little slow random from LFO2 for an affect more like tape.
Any chance you could build a cmb and post? :roll:
But of course, I built this and tested it on a 70s police drama soundtrack with rhodes and strings but it allows going further than just a little wobble.
Controls are for Rate (free or synced), Sine/Random with is a crossfade blend of either/or/both so you can add a little (or a lot) of random to your sine or go completely random, Amount which is the pitch depth of the effect, and Drive which adds a some grit to the sound. With the buttons you can also add The Echo's "stereo" LFO for a wider effect, add the dry signal with the 50/50 wet button, or roll off a little low end with the Lo Cut button. Enjoy and distribute freely (modified or not), and if you improve it post back here please!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iur64n5532y3v ... b.zip?dl=0

Almost forgot another Combinator, this one to create a fake stereo effect from a mono signal that is 100% mono compatible (using Sweeper):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zpey52bu6875v ... b.zip?dl=0
Selig Audio, LLC

Billy
Posts: 439
Joined: 09 Dec 2016

Post 16 Oct 2020

selig wrote:
16 Oct 2020
Billy wrote:
14 Oct 2020


Any chance you could build a cmb and post? :roll:
But of course, I built this and tested it on a 70s police drama soundtrack with rhodes and strings but it allows going further than just a little wobble.
Controls are for Rate (free or synced), Sine/Random with is a crossfade blend of either/or/both so you can add a little (or a lot) of random to your sine or go completely random, Amount which is the pitch depth of the effect, and Drive which adds a some grit to the sound. With the buttons you can also add The Echo's "stereo" LFO for a wider effect, add the dry signal with the 50/50 wet button, or roll off a little low end with the Lo Cut button. Enjoy and distribute freely (modified or not), and if you improve it post back here please!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iur64n5532y3v ... b.zip?dl=0

Almost forgot another Combinator, this one to create a fake stereo effect from a mono signal that is 100% mono compatible (using Sweeper):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zpey52bu6875v ... b.zip?dl=0
Thanks your a star, can't wait to get my wow on.. I've updated my initial post to link directly to your patch post.
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Ottostrom
Posts: 345
Joined: 13 May 2016

Post 16 Oct 2020

selig wrote:
16 Oct 2020
Billy wrote:
14 Oct 2020


Any chance you could build a cmb and post? :roll:
But of course, I built this and tested it on a 70s police drama soundtrack with rhodes and strings but it allows going further than just a little wobble.
Controls are for Rate (free or synced), Sine/Random with is a crossfade blend of either/or/both so you can add a little (or a lot) of random to your sine or go completely random, Amount which is the pitch depth of the effect, and Drive which adds a some grit to the sound. With the buttons you can also add The Echo's "stereo" LFO for a wider effect, add the dry signal with the 50/50 wet button, or roll off a little low end with the Lo Cut button. Enjoy and distribute freely (modified or not), and if you improve it post back here please!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/iur64n5532y3v ... b.zip?dl=0

Almost forgot another Combinator, this one to create a fake stereo effect from a mono signal that is 100% mono compatible (using Sweeper):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zpey52bu6875v ... b.zip?dl=0
Appreciate it!
I just tried it out on some patches from that old Props refill "ElectroMechanical" and I absolutely LOVE how it behaves :D
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stuk71
Posts: 45
Joined: 15 Apr 2020
Location: Scotland

Post 17 Oct 2020

There is a free VST from Isotope called 'Vinyl' that has different wobble effects with intensity. It will also degrade the audio to if required.

Ive used this and the excellent free 'Cassette Transport' from Waves Factory to good effect.

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MrFigg
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Post 17 Oct 2020

stuk71 wrote:
17 Oct 2020
There is a free VST from Isotope called 'Vinyl' that has different wobble effects with intensity. It will also degrade the audio to if required.

Ive used this and the excellent free 'Cassette Transport' from Waves Factory to good effect.
Forgot about vinyl. Putting an LFO like shape into the CV gives great results.
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Billy
Posts: 439
Joined: 09 Dec 2016

Post 17 Oct 2020

Have you seen this https://www.wavesfactory.com/audio-plugins/echo-cat/ I don't think I can hold out....

What you think of the new vst from WavesFactory, Echo Cat.

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MrFigg
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Post 17 Oct 2020

Billy wrote:
17 Oct 2020
Have you seen this https://www.wavesfactory.com/audio-plugins/echo-cat/ I don't think I can hold out....

What you think of the new vst from WavesFactory, Echo Cat.

I don’t like it and I really thought I would.
Seriously if you want wobble get Vinyl for free and automate the warp parameter.
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Billy
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Post 17 Oct 2020

I've got vinyl, in fact I would be in shock to find anyone who doesn't.....

How long did you give Echo Cat a play before you decided you didn't like it?
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MrFigg
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Post 17 Oct 2020

Billy wrote:
17 Oct 2020
I've got vinyl, in fact I would be in shock to find anyone who doesn't.....

How long did you give Echo Cat a play before you decided you didn't like it?
10 minutes. Don’t like the sound. I used it on my guitar. Didn’t like the saturation or the drift or the wobble. That’s just me though maybe. I know folk who love it. There’s a free echo by Sender Spike which you could look at if you want a delay. Get a free multi-tap and add your own saturation.
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strangers
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Location: NJ

Post 17 Oct 2020

I know Softube gets a bad rap around here but I really like Tape and use it pretty often. Between Softube's Tape and Izotope's Vinyl I'm fully covered when I'm aiming for some good ol' warble.

Like others have already mentioned, The Echo is always a solid choice if you're looking to stay in the RE world. I use that one a lot, too.

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MrFigg
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Post 17 Oct 2020

strangers wrote:
17 Oct 2020
I know Softube gets a bad rap around here but I really like Tape and use it pretty often. Between Softube's Tape and Izotope's Vinyl I'm fully covered when I'm aiming for some good ol' warble.

Like others have already mentioned, The Echo is always a solid choice if you're looking to stay in the RE world. I use that one a lot, too.
On sale at Plugin Boutique. 60% off.
https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/ ... /3416-Tape
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strangers
Posts: 533
Joined: 06 Mar 2017
Location: NJ

Post 17 Oct 2020

MrFigg wrote:
17 Oct 2020
strangers wrote:
17 Oct 2020
I know Softube gets a bad rap around here but I really like Tape and use it pretty often. Between Softube's Tape and Izotope's Vinyl I'm fully covered when I'm aiming for some good ol' warble.

Like others have already mentioned, The Echo is always a solid choice if you're looking to stay in the RE world. I use that one a lot, too.
On sale at Plugin Boutique. 60% off.
https://www.pluginboutique.com/product/ ... /3416-Tape
Great deal. I snagged it a couple years ago when they dropped it to $39. The non sale price is a bit steep, like all of Softube's pricing.

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