Amp sim REs - is there a way to simulate an effects loop?

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rogfrich
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016

04 Sep 2020

Hi all,

I’ve just spent an enjoyable couple of hours playing with my guitar and Kuassa’s Caliburn amp sim RE (it’s superb, the best amp sim I’ve used in Reason).

I was trying to set my signal chain up like I would in real life: compressor > overdrive > preamp > delay > reverb > power amp > speakers.

The thing is, with a real amp, you’d usually route the modulation effects through an effects loop, so that they get a signal after the preamp and flow their effected signal back into the power amp.

As far as I can tell, that’s not possible with Caliburn - I can feed the output from the amp sim into reverb / delay, but that means the cabinet modelling has already been applied at that point. What I’d like is to take the signal out of the amp sim at the preamp stage, feed it into the modulation effects, and then back into the amp sim to hit the power amp and speaker simulation - but the RE just doesn’t have the socketry to support that.

So I’m wondering if there any other guitar sim REs that support this signal flow, or failing that if there are any clever signal flow tricks involving combinators and the like. It’s not a big deal, I’m just curious. 😀

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stratatonic
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04 Sep 2020

rogfrich wrote:
04 Sep 2020
Hi all,

I’ve just spent an enjoyable couple of hours playing with my guitar and Kuassa’s Caliburn amp sim RE (it’s superb, the best amp sim I’ve used in Reason).

I was trying to set my signal chain up like I would in real life: compressor > overdrive > preamp > delay > reverb > power amp > speakers.

The thing is, with a real amp, you’d usually route the modulation effects through an effects loop, so that they get a signal after the preamp and flow their effected signal back into the power amp.

As far as I can tell, that’s not possible with Caliburn - I can feed the output from the amp sim into reverb / delay, but that means the cabinet modelling has already been applied at that point. What I’d like is to take the signal out of the amp sim at the preamp stage, feed it into the modulation effects, and then back into the amp sim to hit the power amp and speaker simulation - but the RE just doesn’t have the socketry to support that.

So I’m wondering if there any other guitar sim REs that support this signal flow, or failing that if there are any clever signal flow tricks involving combinators and the like. It’s not a big deal, I’m just curious. 😀
Maybe use two Caliburns. First one has the cab sim off. Second one has amp off. So you go through the amp Cal1, put in your fx and then go through the cabs Cal2. You could stick it all in a combinator to save your patch.
Technically you'd be putting the FX after the power amp doing it this way. (You could try three Caliburns ... experimenting with the first two with cabs off and seeing how it works using the first Cal as the preamp and the second Cal as the power amp)

EDIT: Actually you maybe could just use two Cals, I suppose - experimenting with getting just a preamp drive out of the first one to the FX and no preamp on the second, but with cabs on in the second Cal...if that's even possible... Good luck :)

Steedus
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04 Sep 2020

Yeah it's more of a workaround than a proper solution but I would usually set up amp REs like this:

compressor > overdrive > AMP RE (cab section turned off) > delay > reverb > AMP RE ("amp" section turned off)

EdGrip
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05 Sep 2020

All amp sims should totally have an FX loop! Having said that, feel free to take the following as a tip for anyone who might come across this thread later: Don't discount putting reverbs and delays into the front end. Even with plenty of preamp gain, it can be deliciously rock-'n'-roll and contribute to an overall feeling of loudness. If you experiment with mix level you can have a dry signal that's very overdriven and a delay signal that's clean, or vice versa, and everywhere in between, etc etc. If you're using pedals for dirt it becomes even more fluid. (Don't discount putting the reverb *before* the distortion pedal just because it goes against conventional guitar wisdom.)

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Loque
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05 Sep 2020

Maybe its not the same, but did you tried a feedback loop in a mixer? Maybe add a few ms delay before you feed the signal back to prevent an instant overdriven signal.
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EdGrip
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05 Sep 2020

To add to my last post, again just general background for people finding this thread: FX loops were invented as a way for guitarists to approximate common studio effects on stage. (Putting a send delay on the lead guitar track etc.) In Reason, or any DAW, you *have* a studio: You can just put some send delay on the lead guitar. Big arena bands would have sound technicians who could put the relevant delay or reverb on the guitar mixer channel at the desk, at the relevant point of the song, like a studio - or otherwise plumb the guitarist's rack in through the desk. FX loops turned up to make this kind of thing easier for smaller bands. Prior to the 80s, all (mainly mechanical) delays went into the front end, with some even being prized as preamps in themselves (the Echoplex tape delay). Likewise the big Fender spring reverb unit.
The general point I'm getting at is amp FX loops are quirk of electronic history to solve a particular problem. They should be emulated so that people can emulate that historical quirk if they want to, BUT the problem they were designed to solve is solved by the existence of DAWs.

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guitfnky
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05 Sep 2020

EdGrip wrote:
05 Sep 2020
To add to my last post, again just general background for people finding this thread: FX loops were invented as a way for guitarists to approximate common studio effects on stage. (Putting a send delay on the lead guitar track etc.) In Reason, or any DAW, you *have* a studio: You can just put some send delay on the lead guitar. Big arena bands would have sound technicians who could put the relevant delay or reverb on the guitar mixer channel at the desk, at the relevant point of the song, like a studio - or otherwise plumb the guitarist's rack in through the desk. FX loops turned up to make this kind of thing easier for smaller bands. Prior to the 80s, all (mainly mechanical) delays went into the front end, with some even being prized as preamps in themselves (the Echoplex tape delay). Likewise the big Fender spring reverb unit.
The general point I'm getting at is amp FX loops are quirk of electronic history to solve a particular problem. They should be emulated so that people can emulate that historical quirk if they want to, BUT the problem they were designed to solve is solved by the existence of DAWs.
great point. never have even thought about using an effects loop-style setup while using a DAW. if you look at some of the other modeling plugins like Bias FX, even they don’t seem to have options to create effects loops (at least not that I’m aware of)—presumably for the same reason.

that said, I also agree with your earlier comment that it SHOULD be a thing that plugins allow you to do. especially when talking about plugins that make a big deal about painstakingly recreating every nuance of the amps they’re modeled on.
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gullum
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05 Sep 2020

I've been a guitar player for around 30 years and always have I plugged my guitar through a bunch of pedals then straight into my amp and I do the same in reason without giving it any thought. :D There were other ways to do it all that time :D

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Jackjackdaw
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05 Sep 2020

I would use the Reason mixer sends and paralell channels into a bus. Might get you close. Like @Gullum, I have never been too picky about my guitar signal chain IRL. I just plug everything in series and turn up the volume :lol:

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MrFigg
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05 Sep 2020

gullum wrote:
05 Sep 2020
I've been a guitar player for around 30 years and always have I plugged my guitar through a bunch of pedals then straight into my amp and I do the same in reason without giving it any thought. :D There were other ways to do it all that time :D
Same here. Guitar pedals amp. But I don’t know about the reverb...where’s that when it’s built into the amp? My Hotrod deluxe has a brilliant spring in it so up to now I usually put my spring verb after the amp as it seems more “real” than putting it before.
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miyaru
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05 Sep 2020

In real life it is all depending on the amp. Right now I'm using two guitar amps in my home studio: a 4 watt '73 Silverface Fender Champ and an one watt Marshall DSL1CR. For the Fender all goes in straight the input, and the Marshall has a digital reverb - which I dislike, so I have a second reverb pedal going in the FX loop of the Marshall. The Fender uses a TC Hall of Fame 2, and the Marshall a EHX Holy Grail.

I can switch between amps on my pedalboard using a ABY switch, and switch my pedals using a programmable looper/switcher, witch also does the channel switching on my Marshall.

Last thursday, I ordered aMooer Radar Cabsim pedal. I don't like playing guitar in my computer, might have to do with age LOL. NO seriously, I like the feel of tubes and stuff, so I'm courious about the Mooer Radar and the involved latency of the pedal.

The fun of the lettle Radar is that one can load their own IR's in it, and I am looking around already for IR's......

That said, a RE with physical send and returns utilizing the ins/outs of an audio interface would be neat!
Greetings from Miyaru.
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EdGrip
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05 Sep 2020

Where the amp has a built in reverb, such as a Fender Princeton Reverb (like mine!), the reverb is between the preamp and the power amp.

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MrFigg
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05 Sep 2020

EdGrip wrote:
05 Sep 2020
Where the amp has a built in reverb, such as a Fender Princeton Reverb (like mine!), the reverb is between the preamp and the power amp.
S'what I thought...so I guess it's guitar into pedals into amp with the cab turned off then into the spring reverb then into the amp with the preamp turned off?
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guitfnky
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05 Sep 2020

off topic, but I love it whenever there’s a good guitar thread. :)
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EdGrip
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05 Sep 2020

If the amp sim is modelling a Fender Reverb amp, presumably it'll model the reverb in the correct position in the chain. If it's a model of an amp that didn't have a reverb, the world is your oyster. To be "realistic", you'd either put the reverb before the input, or after the "microphone".

But the "sandwich" technique above, of using 2 amp sims with the reverb in the middle, should approximate an amp with a built in spring reverb (and it would be a spring reverb. Nobody was building EMT 140 plate reverbs into amps, although that would have been an awesome machine. Modern amps with digital hall reverbs etc built in are not really relevant here.)

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miyaru
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05 Sep 2020

EdGrip wrote:
05 Sep 2020
If the amp sim is modelling a Fender Reverb amp, presumably it'll model the reverb in the correct position in the chain. If it's a model of an amp that didn't have a reverb, the world is your oyster. To be "realistic", you'd either put the reverb before the input, or after the "microphone".

But the "sandwich" technique above, of using 2 amp sims with the reverb in the middle, should approximate an amp with a built in spring reverb (and it would be a spring reverb. Nobody was building EMT 140 plate reverbs into amps, although that would have been an awesome machine. Modern amps with digital hall reverbs etc built in are not really relevant here.)
So true, and one should expiriment to get the best sounding option. That said, it is very interesting - this topic!!!!!! :mrgreen:
Greetings from Miyaru.
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rogfrich
Posts: 18
Joined: 30 Aug 2016

05 Sep 2020

Wow, I'm pleased my innocent little question sparked such an interesting discussion!

I've gone back to the track in question today, but I've been focussing the arrangement. The next step is to finalise the guitar sounds before mixing (I like to render out the amp sounds and reimport them as "burned in" wavs, rather than leave the amp sims running while mixing. I'm old school). When I do that, I'll definitely play with the "sandwich" technique.

By the way, does anyone else think it's weird that Kuassa's Marshall sim is called "Caliburn"? To me, "cali" = California, so I'd expect it to be a Fender or Mesa sim, not good ol' British Marshall. :)

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stratatonic
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06 Sep 2020

Outside of the Rack Extensions, Amplitube 4 does allow you to insert FX after the amp and before the cab.
Kuassa could do this as well for their REs. It may not be worth their time, maybe, but I also can't see it being too difficult to put in some breakout jacks. They threw in a bunch of CV stuff when people asked for it, you never know.

Really, the bottom line is, if it sounds good, it is good, no matter where in the chain everything goes.

rogfrich wrote:
05 Sep 2020
I'll definitely play with the "sandwich" technique.


You could also use amps from one RE and use the Cabs from another. Or even the Softtube ones as well.

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