Is VST3 so hard to implement?

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MrFigg
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Post 30 Jul 2020

I really have to ask. I don’t know so much about these things but there’s so many plugins coming out these days without VST2 counterparts this emission is starting to get annoying. Is it technical? Is it money? Is it just lack of effort? I guess this is in many feature request threads but what’s the story? Anybody tell me? Thanks.
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Loque
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Post 30 Jul 2020

Its all points you mentioned. And dont forget, the wishlist for features in Reason is longer than the distance between earth and moon!
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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MrFigg
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Post 30 Jul 2020

Loque wrote:
30 Jul 2020
Its all points you mentioned. And dont forget, the wishlist for features in Reason is longer than the distance between earth and moon!
Absolutely but this is a standard surely? I guess you and everybody’s uncle also feel the same?
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Loque
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Post 30 Jul 2020

MrFigg wrote:
30 Jul 2020
Loque wrote:
30 Jul 2020
Its all points you mentioned. And dont forget, the wishlist for features in Reason is longer than the distance between earth and moon!
Absolutely but this is a standard surely? I guess you and everybody’s uncle also feel the same?
Well, i dont want to be the guy who says this, but Propellerheads took more than 15 years to implement VST support...So maybe we need to wait another 15 years until RS supports VST3 :(

Well, thats not fully true, since it was right there quite early, but someone didnt wanted it and made the decision that other things are more important...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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MrFigg
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Post 30 Jul 2020

Loque wrote:
30 Jul 2020
MrFigg wrote:
30 Jul 2020


Absolutely but this is a standard surely? I guess you and everybody’s uncle also feel the same?
Well, i dont want to be the guy who says this, but Propellerheads took more than 15 years to implement VST support...So maybe we need to wait another 15 years until RS supports VST3 :(

Well, thats not fully true, since it was right there quite early, but someone didnt wanted it and made the decision that other things are more important...
And there you have it. It was there...so it’s not a case of not implementing it. It’s an active decision not to include it.
Same as it’s an active decision to stop us using Balance as an ignition key. Here yesterday and gone today.
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Loque
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Post 30 Jul 2020

MrFigg wrote:
30 Jul 2020
Loque wrote:
30 Jul 2020

Well, i dont want to be the guy who says this, but Propellerheads took more than 15 years to implement VST support...So maybe we need to wait another 15 years until RS supports VST3 :(

Well, thats not fully true, since it was right there quite early, but someone didnt wanted it and made the decision that other things are more important...
And there you have it. It was there...so it’s not a case of not implementing it. It’s an active decision not to include it.
Same as it’s an active decision to stop us using Balance as an ignition key. Here yesterday and gone today.
Sometimes not the smartes guys make the decisions, but the guys with the biggest ego and all others are silent puppies. This often leads to pure fail and nobody cares since nobody knows...
We will see, what RS is heading to..
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

PhillipOrdonez
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Post 30 Jul 2020

Somebody's uncle here, and with all the authority bestowed on me by the fact, I can say I hope they implement vst3 soon in the rack.

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fieldframe
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Post 30 Jul 2020

I don’t know about VST3 in particular, but having worked in software development for close to a decade, I can offer this perspective:

Most development teams use a variation on a methodology called Agile. This process revolves around something called a backlog, where functionality that the team wants to implement goes. Teams work in cycles called sprints, and each sprint, the team takes an amount of functionality (broken down into units called user stories) from the backlog that they believe they can complete in that sprint and works on it.

Before a sprint can happen, a team must prioritize the backlog. This is led by the product manager, who must often make tough decisions about what gets done next and what has to wait, as the backlog is invariably far longer than even the next few sprints. Things that were previously coming up soon can often fall further back in the backlog when business needs change, or things like critical bugs take precedence.

VST3 support is obviously in the backlog at Reason Studios. It probably consists of quite a few user stories, many of which are dependencies for other parts of the system that need to be updated first. We know that RS has been working on hiDPI support, which likely continues to consume a lot of sprint work. Other things in 11.3.2 like AAX effect mode were all prioritized in recent sprints.

The reason VST3 hasn’t arrived yet is not because it’s too hard, or because RS doesn’t have enough funding, or because the team has become lazy. It’s simply because there have been too many other things that were prioritized higher on the backlog. You may not agree with the prioritization, but that’s the analysis RS made, that those things are currently the most important to the business and should be built first.
The Iron Law of Reason forums: All topics eventually turn into feature request threads; the only difference is how many posts it takes.

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Loque
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Post 30 Jul 2020

fieldframe wrote:
30 Jul 2020
I don’t know about VST3 in particular, but having worked in software development for close to a decade, I can offer this perspective:

Most development teams use a variation on a methodology called Agile. This process revolves around something called a backlog, where functionality that the team wants to implement goes. Teams work in cycles called sprints, and each sprint, the team takes an amount of functionality (broken down into units called user stories) from the backlog that they believe they can complete in that sprint and works on it.

Before a sprint can happen, a team must prioritize the backlog. This is led by the product manager, who must often make tough decisions about what gets done next and what has to wait, as the backlog is invariably far longer than even the next few sprints. Things that were previously coming up soon can often fall further back in the backlog when business needs change, or things like critical bugs take precedence.

VST3 support is obviously in the backlog at Reason Studios. It probably consists of quite a few user stories, many of which are dependencies for other parts of the system that need to be updated first. We know that RS has been working on hiDPI support, which likely continues to consume a lot of sprint work. Other things in 11.3.2 like AAX effect mode were all prioritized in recent sprints.

The reason VST3 hasn’t arrived yet is not because it’s too hard, or because RS doesn’t have enough funding, or because the team has become lazy. It’s simply because there have been too many other things that were prioritized higher on the backlog. You may not agree with the prioritization, but that’s the analysis RS made, that those things are currently the most important to the business and should be built first.
Yes, today they call it "agile". Its always the same in the end. Some technical dummy decides what is important to implement first and they all hope to make it within a specific time and they all have a long list of things which needs to be done.. Regardless of which "process" they follow, its always the same.
Today someone made the decision, that the rack plugin is more important than VST3 or a GUI update. While i agree to a part of it, since the RRP gives more customers, a strongly disagree...wait...i have no idea...they just were too slow the last 15 years and they try to catch up and i cross fingers they can do it...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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MrFigg
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Post 30 Jul 2020

Anybody ever use Wusik X42? It bridges 32bit VSTs to 64bit. It can also bridge VST3 to VST2 only hosts. Just now it’s on sale at 99% off!!! I’m tempted.
http://wwww.wusik.com/w/index.php/purch ... p131262298
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guitfnky
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Post 30 Jul 2020

blaming it on “some technical dummy” is awfully shortsighted. to fieldframe’s point, we may not agree with the prioritization they’ve chosen, but let’s think about that for a second...

would you and I prioritize this the same way? doubtful. I’d put VST MIDI out into Reason higher on the list. you might put Combinator 2 way ahead of both those things. another person thinks high resolution monitor support is the most important thing.

when the next feature is announced, and it’s high resolution support, you and I are likely to be disappointed, but the third person will likely be jazzed.

does that mean they’ve done a bad job of prioritizing? of course not.

we—you and I—are anecdotes. we don’t represent the average user. so whenever they put out a feature that makes the average user happy, but doesn’t overlap with our individual wants, it’s easy to think they’re not listening.

I think the real time to complain/worry/what-have-you is when they’re releasing stuff nobody’s even been asking for before the stuff people HAVE been asking for. arguably, v10 and v11 may fall into that category, for some, depending on their point of view.

DaveyG
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Post 30 Jul 2020

Ima gonna hold out for VST4.

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QVprod
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Post 30 Jul 2020

For perspective. Most plugins still ship with a VST 2 version. It sucks for those plugins that are VST only or require the VST version for added functions, but VST3 implementation has been relatively slow across DAWs in general. Ableton just implemented it last year. VST3 was released in 2008. It's understandable that it might not be priority compared to the numerous other wants people have even just on this forum.

loopeydoug
Posts: 51
Joined: 11 Oct 2018

Post 30 Jul 2020

guitfnky wrote:
30 Jul 2020
...you might put Combinator 2 way ahead of both those things...
Hey, that's me! Combinator 2 has been at the top of my list since before Rack Extensions were introduced. Imagine how I must feel. :lol:

DaveyG
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Post 30 Jul 2020

QVprod wrote:
30 Jul 2020
For perspective. Most plugins still ship with a VST 2 version. It sucks for those plugins that are VST only or require the VST version for added functions, but VST3 implementation has been relatively slow across DAWs in general. Ableton just implemented it last year. VST3 was released in 2008. It's understandable that it might not be priority compared to the numerous other wants people have even just on this forum.
If you create a new VST plugin today it has to be VST3. Steinberg licensing only allows you to continue to produce VST2 versions of plugins that already exist. That's why the RRP is VST3 only.

So as time goes on Reason becomes less compatible with VSTs.

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guitfnky
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Post 30 Jul 2020

loopeydoug wrote:
30 Jul 2020
guitfnky wrote:
30 Jul 2020
...you might put Combinator 2 way ahead of both those things...
Hey, that's me! Combinator 2 has been at the top of my list since before Rack Extensions were introduced. Imagine how I must feel. :lol:
😂 you’re not alone—lots of folks want a new combi! I wouldn’t mind it, just nowhere near the top of my list. and with that, you probably hate me now. 😆

danc
Posts: 497
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Post 30 Jul 2020

DaveyG wrote:
30 Jul 2020
QVprod wrote:
30 Jul 2020
For perspective. Most plugins still ship with a VST 2 version. It sucks for those plugins that are VST only or require the VST version for added functions, but VST3 implementation has been relatively slow across DAWs in general. Ableton just implemented it last year. VST3 was released in 2008. It's understandable that it might not be priority compared to the numerous other wants people have even just on this forum.
If you create a new VST plugin today it has to be VST3. Steinberg licensing only allows you to continue to produce VST2 versions of plugins that already exist. That's why the RRP is VST3 only.

So as time goes on Reason becomes less compatible with VSTs.
Or maybe Reason Studios know something we don't and are saving us from the end of the universe... you see... if they allowed Reason to load VST3 and also allowed RRP to load VSTs... then we could then load Reason inside Reason inside Reason inside Reason ad infinitum and they probably have decided that could result in a Matrix moment.

So - please - stop moaning. They are just being very kind to all of us.
Creating, producing and mastering music in Reason 11 and Studio One 5 (WIndows).


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Loque
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Post 30 Jul 2020

danc wrote:
30 Jul 2020
DaveyG wrote:
30 Jul 2020


If you create a new VST plugin today it has to be VST3. Steinberg licensing only allows you to continue to produce VST2 versions of plugins that already exist. That's why the RRP is VST3 only.

So as time goes on Reason becomes less compatible with VSTs.
Or maybe Reason Studios know something we don't and are saving us from the end of the universe... you see... if they allowed Reason to load VST3 and also allowed RRP to load VSTs... then we could then load Reason inside Reason inside Reason inside Reason ad infinitum and they probably have decided that could result in a Matrix moment.

So - please - stop moaning. They are just being very kind to all of us.
Its not a big deal to prevent loading Reason inside Reason...

On the other hand this thing with the universe...yes, thank for keeping me safe :thumbs_up:
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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QVprod
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Post 30 Jul 2020

DaveyG wrote:
30 Jul 2020
QVprod wrote:
30 Jul 2020
For perspective. Most plugins still ship with a VST 2 version. It sucks for those plugins that are VST only or require the VST version for added functions, but VST3 implementation has been relatively slow across DAWs in general. Ableton just implemented it last year. VST3 was released in 2008. It's understandable that it might not be priority compared to the numerous other wants people have even just on this forum.
If you create a new VST plugin today it has to be VST3. Steinberg licensing only allows you to continue to produce VST2 versions of plugins that already exist. That's why the RRP is VST3 only.

So as time goes on Reason becomes less compatible with VSTs.
Actually from what I understand, it's developers who did not already have a license prior to October 2018 who cannot develop VST2 plugins. Assuming the license for hosting and developing VSTs are different, RS either simply missed the deadline or they simply decided to only develop for VST3. Most companies are unaffected by that change, so there's still a relatively small number of plugins that are VST3 only. I bought Arturia V Collection 7 recently (came out in 2019) and all of the plugins, including the ones new to the collection, are VST2. It'll be a while before lack of VST3 compatibility becomes a major issue affecting most plugins.

That's not to belittle anyone wishing they can use their VST3 stuff in Reason. I hope you get do that soon.

Marc64
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Joined: 24 Jan 2015
Location: Sweden

Post 30 Jul 2020

Not to be THAT guy but is your music gonna be any better with vst3 and more stuff...

Some ppl can even make awesome music just by using a plain tracker and few samples.

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MrFigg
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Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 30 Jul 2020

Marc64 wrote:
30 Jul 2020
Not to be THAT guy but is your music gonna be any better with vst3 and more stuff...
Of course it is :).
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dezma
Posts: 225
Joined: 02 Jun 2015

Post 30 Jul 2020

Marc64 wrote:
30 Jul 2020
Not to be THAT guy but is your music gonna be any better with vst3 and more stuff...


Bottom line is they positioned themselves to be a grown up daw since the vst support yet they lag behind any competitor. I used to rewire with Ableton and then finally they released vst support yet with many limitations but I was naive enough to think that would be fixed soon. Only thing they fixed by now is the performance. No vst3, still no midi out for vst, awkward automation for vst's with a lot of parameters, no wav drag and drop etc . Eye opener was the reason 10 commercial: more of everything. I didn't need more crap I hardly ever use but only an updated on par daw. For me reason 11 is a good thing I now use reason for what they are good in: the rack as vst (in studio one). Thing is I couldn't care less for the next update and I'm sure many reason rack vst users feel the same. Only 2 things I miss since reason: CV out and the sync all button for the plugins for updating

Popey
Posts: 213
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Post 31 Jul 2020

guitfnky wrote:
30 Jul 2020
blaming it on “some technical dummy” is awfully shortsighted. to fieldframe’s point, we may not agree with the prioritization they’ve chosen, but let’s think about that for a second...

would you and I prioritize this the same way? doubtful. I’d put VST MIDI out into Reason higher on the list. you might put Combinator 2 way ahead of both those things. another person thinks high resolution monitor support is the most important thing.

when the next feature is announced, and it’s high resolution support, you and I are likely to be disappointed, but the third person will likely be jazzed.

does that mean they’ve done a bad job of prioritizing? of course not.

we—you and I—are anecdotes. we don’t represent the average user. so whenever they put out a feature that makes the average user happy, but doesn’t overlap with our individual wants, it’s easy to think they’re not listening.

I think the real time to complain/worry/what-have-you is when they’re releasing stuff nobody’s even been asking for before the stuff people HAVE been asking for. arguably, v10 and v11 may fall into that category, for some, depending on their point of view.
+1 for this and something I experienced recently with another daw. They didn't implement a feature I hoped for which was a shame but did implement most of the top voted feature requests by users so see this is fair (just need more votes for what i hope is added).

DaveyG
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Post 31 Jul 2020

QVprod wrote:
30 Jul 2020
Actually from what I understand...
You understanding is wrong. Sorry.

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SebAudio
Posts: 123
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Post 31 Jul 2020

DaveyG wrote:
30 Jul 2020
QVprod wrote:
30 Jul 2020
For perspective. Most plugins still ship with a VST 2 version. It sucks for those plugins that are VST only or require the VST version for added functions, but VST3 implementation has been relatively slow across DAWs in general. Ableton just implemented it last year. VST3 was released in 2008. It's understandable that it might not be priority compared to the numerous other wants people have even just on this forum.
If you create a new VST plugin today it has to be VST3. Steinberg licensing only allows you to continue to produce VST2 versions of plugins that already exist. That's why the RRP is VST3 only.

So as time goes on Reason becomes less compatible with VSTs.
I think the vst licensing apply to a company not to a product. RRP could have been released as a vst2 plugin (and it’d have worked in Live regarding CC out support !).
Regarding support of vst3 in Reason : if you go to kvr you’ll find a lot of people complaining about it and advise to use the vst2 version whenever available.

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