Re: Has VST-support ruined Reason?
Posted: 21 Jul 2020
Haha, funny guy.
Haha, funny guy.
Legit question.
There's been more written about that than 7 bibles on this forum alone. Go read it.
hurricane wrote: ↑21 Jul 2020This whole legacy mindset of needing to be a tweaker, CVer, and a patcher to qualify as a true Reason user is completely outdated. I get a chuckle when one of the Reason Karens jumps in with the "if you don't use REs and don't use cables then why are you here, you don't belong here, why do you use Reason?". Well check this out Reason Karens - when I used Acid waaaay back in the day, I NEVER USED LOOPS.
Enochlight is the one who was like "Genuinely interested as to why you stick around here or use Reason, when the devices you dismissed are literally part of its core functionality."chaosroyale wrote: ↑21 Jul 2020Well, guilty as charged for being a tweaker-snob! But I don't think anyone needs to "qualify" as a "true Reason user", and I apologize if anyone thought I was implying that. Anyone who uses Reason, for any style of music, is a true Reason user. But you have to agree it is a bit weird to ask someone if they like the Reason Rack on a Reason forum.
hurricane wrote: ↑21 Jul 2020This whole legacy mindset of needing to be a tweaker, CVer, and a patcher to qualify as a true Reason user is completely outdated. I get a chuckle when one of the Reason Karens jumps in with the "if you don't use REs and don't use cables then why are you here, you don't belong here, why do you use Reason?". Well check this out Reason Karens - when I used Acid waaaay back in the day, I NEVER USED LOOPS.
selig wrote: ↑20 Jul 2020I STILL think Reason need SO many more "DAW" features that are standard on other DAWs, so I'm guessing I'm not one of "those mods"!Goriila Texas wrote: ↑18 Jul 2020If I was BigAnt on that forum and was notorious for getting banned by Mathias for arguing with most of the Mods on this forum who most were on the other team against the growth of Reason. That team runs this forum that's why any negativity about Reason is not tolerated.
I don't think I know of anyone here who is an honest to God "fan boy" for everything Reason. In my experience, everyone here has things they want added to Reason that will probably never happen.
QVprod wrote: ↑20 Jul 2020There was never anything to talk about before because other DAW users couldn’t use REs, especially effects REs, up until less than a year ago. I stopped buying them myself as I started using Studio One more often. That may very well change now. They’ve certainly become a more attractive option for me than before. Reason Rack isn’t the first with a wrapper plugin. People have been using stuff like Amplitude for years. It’s the same concept.chaosroyale wrote: ↑18 Jul 2020Even if Reason Intro is free - why would anyone want to to download a big heavy "wrapper" just to use RE's which are, as another user put succinctly - mostly shit. They can already use VSTs without a wrapper, and VST versions of plugins are almost always superior in performance, CPU and price.
*Don't get me wrong- Selig's stuff and a few others are great, but in 20 years of professional sound engineering I have never met a single client or colleague who has even heard of "coloring EQ" or "Expanse".
EDIT - obviously RE's have only been out for 8 years, and I don't mean specifically only those 2 RE's.
The main point is that nobody has ever said to me "Hey, how about that awesome new RE!" when talking shop about music production.
...It’s so the opposite. viewtopic.php?t=7513588&start=575Goriila Texas wrote: ↑18 Jul 2020That team runs this forum that's why any negativity about Reason is not tolerated.
Majority of mod posts are just participating in discussIons like anyone else here. Don’t count that as “moderation”
I totally agree most do not wire up their own Combinators, but what I feel is important to remember is that there are quite of few of those folks who never wire stuff up BUT that use Combinators made by those "wire heads" that DO wire stuff up.DaveyG wrote: ↑21 Jul 2020There are some intelligent and clever people on here who love to come up with interesting ways to connect and interconnect equipment, and that's great, but I don't for a minute believe that they make up the majority of Reason users. You may well find that they only reason most users press TAB is to either see the cables wobbling (which I still love) or to try to fix something when the auto-wiring has not quite done what they expected. That's pretty much me. I occasionally follow a tutorial or copy of one of the aforementioned clever people to try something but mostly the CV stuff leaves me cold.
Well, in retrospect - I was genuinely interested, otherwise I would have skipped your diatribe and threw on Netflix instead.
My condolences. I kid, I kid..
I've always said that. You can make a complete song without going to the rack a single time, just adding stuff from the browser and let reason do all the cabling for you, and the app has come clever and clever doing that in each version, "knowing" what it has to do in the case of different device types. Everything well integrated with the mixer. If anything is still lacking a bit is when you add sends, that sometimes it gets a bit odd. Other than that, you can stay out of the rack for the whole work.DaveyG wrote: ↑21 Jul 2020
I think you might be surprised how little use the cables get from the majority of users. Fact is, you don't need to touch them for most stuff. The auto wiring means you can drag an instrument, a player, and a couple of effects units into the rack and it will connect them up in the "normal" way then away you go.
Every other DAW does this exact signal routing behind the scenes, so Reason isn't more clever, it's just more accessible. Most of the time though, it should be a hands-free experience if everything is working correctly (hi, Exponential Audio). We shouldn't be amazed at Reason's automatic connectivity because it's how it should work and how it does work in every single DAW, and like, I don't praise the gods when I add a midi plugin to my Logic channel and everything connects how it's supposed to. So update your DAW, Reason Studios - your jiggly cables don't impress me anymore.mcatalao wrote: ↑22 Jul 2020I've always said that. You can make a complete song without going to the rack a single time, just adding stuff from the browser and let reason do all the cabling for you, and the app has come clever and clever doing that in each version, "knowing" what it has to do in the case of different device types. Everything well integrated with the mixer. If anything is still lacking a bit is when you add sends, that sometimes it gets a bit odd. Other than that, you can stay out of the rack for the whole work.DaveyG wrote: ↑21 Jul 2020
I think you might be surprised how little use the cables get from the majority of users. Fact is, you don't need to touch them for most stuff. The auto wiring means you can drag an instrument, a player, and a couple of effects units into the rack and it will connect them up in the "normal" way then away you go.
I beg to differ, auto cable routing in reason does a lot more than connecting stuff to the mixer channels as in other daws, it also connects stuff correctly inside combis when you add devices into them, and in the rack without context, grabbing the context of the nearest device. It also grabs context of players and cv devices, so that when you drop them over other devices they manage to find the correct cv input for that (a matrix on top of an nnxt or a synth).hurricane wrote: ↑22 Jul 2020
Every other DAW does this exact signal routing behind the scenes, so Reason isn't more clever, it's just more accessible. Most of the time though, it should be a hands-free experience if everything is working correctly (hi, Exponential Audio). We shouldn't be amazed at Reason's automatic connectivity because it's how it should work and how it does work in every single DAW, and like, I don't praise the gods when I add a midi plugin to my Logic channel and everything connects how it's supposed to. So update your DAW, Reason Studios - your jiggly cables don't impress me anymore.
I don't give Reason that much credit because I see what Logic is doing when having to deal with its version of "combinators" and "players" and its collection of complex multi-patches, where dragging and dropping or swapping things out for other things connects things correctly and even automaps some macro controls without having to do a thing. In my opinion, Reason isn't doing anything mindblowingly different.
Combis are not unique to Reason either. Studio One has FX chains where you can split and combine the signals at a block diagram level and you can also combine more than one instrument with MIDI Fx in a track. Other DAWs have the equivalent. I'm afraid there is nothing magical or unique about Reason Combis. Examples:mcatalao wrote: ↑22 Jul 2020I beg to differ, auto cable routing in reason does a lot more than connecting stuff to the mixer channels as in other daws, it also connects stuff correctly inside combis when you add devices into them, and in the rack without context, grabbing the context of the nearest device. It also grabs context of players and cv devices, so that when you drop them over other devices they manage to find the correct cv input for that (a matrix on top of an nnxt or a synth).hurricane wrote: ↑22 Jul 2020
Every other DAW does this exact signal routing behind the scenes, so Reason isn't more clever, it's just more accessible. Most of the time though, it should be a hands-free experience if everything is working correctly (hi, Exponential Audio). We shouldn't be amazed at Reason's automatic connectivity because it's how it should work and how it does work in every single DAW, and like, I don't praise the gods when I add a midi plugin to my Logic channel and everything connects how it's supposed to. So update your DAW, Reason Studios - your jiggly cables don't impress me anymore.
It also manages all connections inside a combinator when you load it (look at Reason Drums huge patches with more than 20 devices inside of them), and "knows" how to connect players to devices in an out of combinators, and it manages connections between devices and effects, in a free way, which on other daws, are always added in the context of an insert or a send.
Seem to me a lot more scenarios to manage than in other daws.
No.BadMusic wrote: ↑14 Jul 2020There used to be arguments on Propellerhead's user-forum about whether Reason should support VST's. The consensus was (1) Reason will never support VST's, because Reason's CEO had once stated Reason would never support VST's, and (2) if Reason did start supporting VST's, it would be the ruin of Reason.
Have VST's ruined Reason as was predicted by the Propellerhead-forum regulars?
They are just slow moving! I believe the basic philosophy may be "quality over quantity, or so it has appeared over the years.
It would be innocent from me to believe other daws don't have effects arrays and the features That combinator provides after so many years but what Is special About it is its coherence with the rest of the environment and the fact that it's completely independent of the mixer while the fx/instrument arrays in other daws are bound to a channel. This makes the combinator a pretty nice sound developing tool used and abused for years for sound development.
Once again, look beyond the Island of Reason and you'll find FX Chains that can be saved and loaded as if they were a single Fx, can be shared with other users and can even chained together with other Fx Chains. And I only showed you the routing view of Studio One. It also has a macro control view where you can assign anything to knobs, buttons and x-y pads. 8 knobs, 8 buttons and 2 x-y pads. Um, did someone say super combinator?mcatalao wrote: ↑23 Jul 2020
It would be innocent from me to believe other daws don't have effects arrays and the features That combinator provides after so many years but what Is special About it is its coherence with the rest of the environment and the fact that it's completely independent of the mixer while the fx/instrument arrays in other daws are bound to a channel. This makes the combinator a pretty nice sound developing tool used and abused for years for sound development.
The other thing is the graphic representation and amount of clicks to build a combinator. Adding something to a combinator and having it visible without a Uml representation is a better display format, imho than a block chart (I'd like to let blockcharts and Uml style representations for my IT work, thanks).
Well, at least you're not afraid to admit it