Has VST-support ruined Reason?

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Billy+
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Post 08 Feb 2021

gullum wrote:
08 Feb 2021
avasopht wrote:
08 Feb 2021


Is the VST work really that extensive? It was mostly written way back in around 2012, and that was when we got Rack Extensions, Polar, and lots of other gizmos and improvements.
maybe not.
I was being sarcastic a tiny bit. I know many wanted VST only I am on reason 11 and have not installed 1 VST to use with reason.
Actually you're not far from the point there, I've only been using vst's for the last couple of years 4 at most and I'm still not convinced that it was actually an use. The fact that it's never been fully implemented is the biggest problem.

I regularly use izotope products and they mostly work acceptably within Reason DAW, however I also use some Mixed in Keys stuff and although they function the biggest floor is the complete lack of midi support and although there are workarounds they are mostly in affective.

Given the state of vst support in Reason I would rather they didn't bother at least we could have continued to share project files without the problem of who's got what plugins. Now we've got them I just want them to finish fully implementing it for vst2 before they even offer vst3 as what's the point if it's only half working!
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jamesa
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Post 08 Feb 2021

There are two kinds of companies in this world: those who embrace industry standards and those who eventually embrace industry standards.

sdst
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Post 10 Feb 2021

imagine if instead of those useless, Klang Pangea and player

they spend time creating an mclass at the level of fabfilter

a more powerful combinator, and a better sequencer

then vst would not be needed

danc
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Post 10 Feb 2021

Well - my thoughts...

I think it all depends who you are and what you want to use Reason for. If you just tinker around making sounds for yourself, then probably the Rack Extension universe was enough to whet your appetite. It made everything easy, as you have this one eco-system world of installation/updates/trials etc. You don't mind the fact that across over in the VST world there are better like-for-like instruments and FX... who cares.

Now for more professional use. You can't expect to work professionally just with REs. What if an artist you are working with says... I have created this preset in Serum... let's drop that into the project. Yes you could make a stem, but hardly professional if you need to import the preset and then play with automation.

And then there is that whole argument of putting your whole investment into one company that if they go under you suddenly lose access to your whole DAW, plugins etc. Not something I want to sign-up to.
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OldSchoolSkunk
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Post 10 Feb 2021

No it has just provided more options to use tools that haven't been or have been implemented in reason as far as VST2.4 goes. So its been here long enough to be an after thought. Remember back when this a was a big important thing everyone still wanted to add even after the introduction of RE's? I honestly don't see where there is anything that supports the notion that it has ruined it. Only thing I think is if the change in company ownership and management hadn't happened. We would still not have it now.

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Billy+
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Post 10 Feb 2021

To be fair we've only really half got it, it was never fully implemented
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plasticfractal
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Post 10 Feb 2021

It saved it. I can't imagine a DAW in 2021 not supporting VSTs.

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zoidkirb
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Post 10 Feb 2021

May as well ask if adding a sequencer or audio recording has ruined Reason.
Once you go down the path of becoming a DAW, you gotta go all the way.

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OldSchoolSkunk
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Post 10 Feb 2021

Billy+ wrote:
10 Feb 2021
To be fair we've only really half got it, it was never fully implemented
Considering support for VST2.4 was ending by the time we got it I can see why some of it was not. But still enough to make music and mix in Reason without ever touching any of the stock devices I don't think we'll miss that much. VST3 support is there if they ever decide to unlock it. For the non RRP users.

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zero01101
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Post 10 Feb 2021

avasopht wrote:
08 Feb 2021
gullum wrote:
08 Feb 2021
Yes it has without VST they would have spent last 4-5 years only on the daw futures of reason. We might have better sequencer and even HI res graphics
Is the VST work really that extensive? It was mostly written way back in around 2012, and that was when we got Rack Extensions, Polar, and lots of other gizmos and improvements.
waaaaay earlier than that, even

DecafDreams
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Post 11 Feb 2021

I tried using VSTs for a while but then went back to exclusively using REs. I don't like the workflow of floating windows and I also feel like, if I'm being honest with myself, I have everything I really need in the rack. It forces me to be creative to get the results I want with the ample tools I have, whereas VST feels like starting an addiction. A bottomless hole that will sink my time and effort and that I know ultimately will harm my productivity and ability to create in the long run...

AnotherMathias
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Post 11 Feb 2021

DecafDreams wrote:
11 Feb 2021
I tried using VSTs for a while but then went back to exclusively using REs. I don't like the workflow of floating windows and I also feel like, if I'm being honest with myself, I have everything I really need in the rack. It forces me to be creative to get the results I want with the ample tools I have, whereas VST feels like starting an addiction. A bottomless hole that will sink my time and effort and that I know ultimately will harm my productivity and ability to create in the long run...
This is how I feel about it as well.
In addition to Reason I also have Studio One and Logic. Whenever I use the other two I find myself spending most of the time just goofing around with different VSTs. So many fun freebies and demos to play with! I never get any actual music making done. Obviously the biggest culprit there is my own lack of discipline.
This is what I compare it to: How many great songs have been by some dude/lady sitting in a cabin with an acoustic guitar? And how many great songs were written by somebody running amok in a big music store, playing every instrument?

When comparing Reason with or without VSTs having happened we shouldn't assume that Reason would have been exactly the same as it is now, only without VSTs. One has to assume that the focus and resources that went that way would have been used for expanding Reason in areas instead. Granted, while it's easy to imagine fantastic and wonderful places they might have gone, there's no real evidence that they would have anything particularly special.

In terms of Reason's survival in the marketplace, that's not something I care to speculate much about. It's much more fun talking about what I'd like for myself and likeminded others.

DecafDreams
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Post 11 Feb 2021

AnotherMathias wrote:
11 Feb 2021
This is what I compare it to: How many great songs have been by some dude/lady sitting in a cabin with an acoustic guitar? And how many great songs were written by somebody running amok in a big music store, playing every instrument?
This is genius, I really like this.

I completely agree. I feel like the resource would have been better spent on the Rack Extension SDK. Yes, REs are never going to compete with VST commercially, but currently there's so many things they can't do properly that they can't even compete technically! Some of the leading developers within the Reason eco system were forced to abandon developing them because their latest features on VST could not be added to the RE versions.

The main one I can think of is UJAM, they've got disk streaming and MIDI drag and drop in their latest VSTs. Neither of which is possible in REs from what I'm aware; hence why they've abandoned ship on RE development I reckon.

Another good example is Sonic Charge. They they originally designed the amazing Permut8 to be an RE but in the end had to scrap that and make it VST only; and to this day it still wouldn't be possible as an RE apparently.

To go back to your original sentiment though, these days I'm trying to really reduce the amount of tech I have in my life and just focus on getting good at the stuff I already have. It takes a lot of self-discipline to ignore all the marketing messages and not just give in to the short-term dopamine hit of yet another plugin or device or service. But long term, I think it's definitely the best strategy for being genuinely creative.

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plaamook
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Post 11 Feb 2021

sdst wrote:
10 Feb 2021
imagine if instead of those useless, Klang Pangea and player

they spend time creating an mclass at the level of fabfilter

a more powerful combinator, and a better sequencer

then vst would not be needed
I don't see it. Fab do one thing. They make some of the best FX plugs on the market. Expecting Props to just make some Fab style plugs...It's like saying, why don't you just be a creative genius like those other geniuses... No one else makes anything close to ProQ fars I can see. Serious innovation there.
Props can't even get the sequencer together! Never mond innovation, just industry standard would be nice. But that's another threat...

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plaamook
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Post 11 Feb 2021

Billy+ wrote:
10 Feb 2021
To be fair we've only really half got it, it was never fully implemented
Can someone clarify what we're lacking in terms of implimentation?
Just curious because for how I use it it's pretty straight forward. Wouldn't mind some knobs on the VST device for assigning parameters etc. but, of course, there's a work around for that...

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EnochLight
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Post 11 Feb 2021

VST2 works fine in Reason as far as everything I need from it, but what I really wish is that it would support VST3. Seeing as how RRP is a VST3 itself, I can’t imagine it being that difficult for RS to implement.

In regards to the OP, I don’t feel VST support ruined Reason at all. In fact, without it, I likely would have bailed and went to another DAW (begrudgingly). Glad they came around.
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Billy+
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Post 11 Feb 2021

plaamook wrote:
11 Feb 2021
Billy+ wrote:
10 Feb 2021
To be fair we've only really half got it, it was never fully implemented
Can someone clarify what we're lacking in terms of implimentation?
Just curious because for how I use it it's pretty straight forward. Wouldn't mind some knobs on the VST device for assigning parameters etc. but, of course, there's a work around for that...
Try getting stuff like Cthulhu working or running any of the mixed in keys captain bundle on RE synths etc.

There is no vst midi routing at all!

Like I said half done, been waiting since V9.5 for it to be finished.
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plaamook
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Post 11 Feb 2021

Billy+ wrote:
11 Feb 2021
plaamook wrote:
11 Feb 2021


Can someone clarify what we're lacking in terms of implimentation?
Just curious because for how I use it it's pretty straight forward. Wouldn't mind some knobs on the VST device for assigning parameters etc. but, of course, there's a work around for that...
Try getting stuff like Cthulhu working or running any of the mixed in keys captain bundle on RE synths etc.

There is no vst midi routing at all!

Like I said half done, been waiting since V9.5 for it to be finished.
Ah. Ok thanks. I wouldn't have noticed any of that stuff w how I work.

Carpainter
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Post 12 Feb 2021

sdst wrote:
10 Feb 2021
imagine if instead of those useless, Klang Pangea and player

they spend time creating an mclass at the level of fabfilter

a more powerful combinator, and a better sequencer

then vst would not be needed
I don't think they want the base package to be feature complete anymore. If they did, we would have no incentive to dip our toes into the Rack Extension ecosystem. And with Reason+, it's probably going to get worse.

Watch them announce Thor on steroids and lock it behind the Rack Extension paywall to get people to shell out for a year of Reason+ at the 'discounted' price.

jjrh
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Post 15 Feb 2021

EnochLight wrote:
11 Feb 2021
VST2 works fine in Reason as far as everything I need from it, but what I really wish is that it would support VST3. Seeing as how RRP is a VST3 itself, I can’t imagine it being that difficult for RS to implement.
VST3 is becoming more and more of a annoyance - lot of new VST's are now VST3 only and there are a lot of cool midi vst's like arpeggiators, sequencers, chord tools, etc. I doubt however it's trivial to implement as my understanding is VST3 is radically different under the hood.
EnochLight wrote:
11 Feb 2021
In regards to the OP, I don’t feel VST support ruined Reason at all. In fact, without it, I likely would have bailed and went to another DAW (begrudgingly). Glad they came around.
This is the case for me, I would have jumped ship to another DAW long ago. My feeling however is reason will ditch the daw aspect in a couple years and focus on just being a really unique VST. Reason as a daw is just so far behind the competition and there is probably more money in being just a VST - I mean $400 is a pretty good deal for the number of instruments and effects you get.

I hope I'm totally wrong and over the last year+ Props has been working on making 12 a massive game changing release but i'm not holding my breath.

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EnochLight
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Post 15 Feb 2021

jjrh wrote:
15 Feb 2021
My feeling however is reason will ditch the daw aspect in a couple years and focus on just being a really unique VST. Reason as a daw is just so far behind the competition and there is probably more money in being just a VST - I mean $400 is a pretty good deal for the number of instruments and effects you get.

I hope I'm totally wrong and over the last year+ Props has been working on making 12 a massive game changing release but i'm not holding my breath.
I don't feel RS will ditch the DAW aspect of Reason in a couple of years, far from it. The standalone DAW ecosystem of Reason is still a great feature and the majority of Reason owners today still use it that way (I believe RS said that 40% of Reason users are specifically RRP users in the Reason+ livestream). That said, I have no illusions that it will always, and I mean ALWAYS, remain sorely behind the competition in regards to core DAW functionality. There will never be an update - version 12 or any other notwithstanding - that addresses enough of the core DAW functionality, IMHO. That's just the way it is, I'm afraid. The question is, will there be enough quality of life features in Reason DAW to keep users inside it as their main production environment? I suspect we'll see more users shift to the RRP as the years go by, but we'll always have the DAW proper for us to fall back to.
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jjrh
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Post 15 Feb 2021

EnochLight wrote:
15 Feb 2021
jjrh wrote:
15 Feb 2021
My feeling however is reason will ditch the daw aspect in a couple years and focus on just being a really unique VST. Reason as a daw is just so far behind the competition and there is probably more money in being just a VST - I mean $400 is a pretty good deal for the number of instruments and effects you get.

I hope I'm totally wrong and over the last year+ Props has been working on making 12 a massive game changing release but i'm not holding my breath.
I don't feel RS will ditch the DAW aspect of Reason in a couple of years, far from it. The standalone DAW ecosystem of Reason is still a great feature and the majority of Reason owners today still use it that way (I believe RS said that 40% of Reason users are specifically RRP users in the Reason+ livestream). That said, I have no illusions that it will always, and I mean ALWAYS, remain sorely behind the competition in regards to core DAW functionality. There will never be an update - version 12 or any other notwithstanding - that addresses enough of the core DAW functionality, IMHO. That's just the way it is, I'm afraid. The question is, will there be enough quality of life features in Reason DAW to keep users inside it as their main production environment? I suspect we'll see more users shift to the RRP as the years go by, but we'll always have the DAW proper for us to fall back to.
I guess by 'ditch' I more so mean the DAW aspect will become mostly a after thought and they won't even bother trying to keep folks on the DAW side of things. Development time is limited so it probably comes down to what features will cause the most number of users to buy the next upgrade and a major sequencer/daw feature release probably won't entice that 40% RRP userbase to buy the update but a release that is attractive to RRP users is probably going to be attractive to the 60% DAW users.

Who knows, other than nostalgia, not wanting to spend ~$600 and hundreds of hours learning a new DAW I'm not really opposed to the DAW turning into more of a scratch pad to get ideas down before switching to a more feature packed DAW. At the end of the day I love reason for the flexibility and creativity you can do with the patch routing not the DAW/sequencer.

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Faastwalker
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Post 15 Feb 2021

In the end I was glad when Reason supported VST's (will be more glad when it supports VST3) although I didn't want it initially. Thought it would be bad for Reason's rock solid stability, compatibility, performance etc. But they implemented it superbly, I could use the handful of VST's I had used years before and I bought a few more. I don't think it's done RE any favors, which is a shame as RE's in Reason are still much better than using VST. Just installing VST's again was a pain. RE's work much better in every way in Reason.

jlgrimes
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Post 17 Feb 2021

plaamook wrote:
11 Feb 2021
sdst wrote:
10 Feb 2021
imagine if instead of those useless, Klang Pangea and player

they spend time creating an mclass at the level of fabfilter

a more powerful combinator, and a better sequencer

then vst would not be needed
I don't see it. Fab do one thing. They make some of the best FX plugs on the market. Expecting Props to just make some Fab style plugs...It's like saying, why don't you just be a creative genius like those other geniuses... No one else makes anything close to ProQ fars I can see. Serious innovation there.
Props can't even get the sequencer together! Never mond innovation, just industry standard would be nice. But that's another threat...
Yeah that would be a longshot getting something at the level of Fabfilter but at the same time, Reason Studios need to get the Mclass Devices out of the year 2005 (GUI was even somewhat outdated then compared to what DAWs like Sonar had then with the Sonitus Suite which was a bit more modern GUI). Reason defninitely shouldn't just ignore these devices (or whatever devices they choose for basic general mixing tasks). These devices are pretty outdated from a GUI perspective. They did add the spectrum view to the SSL EQ but even that could be improved and made to be more flexible.

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plaamook
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Post 17 Feb 2021

jlgrimes wrote:
17 Feb 2021
plaamook wrote:
11 Feb 2021


I don't see it. Fab do one thing. They make some of the best FX plugs on the market. Expecting Props to just make some Fab style plugs...It's like saying, why don't you just be a creative genius like those other geniuses... No one else makes anything close to ProQ fars I can see. Serious innovation there.
Props can't even get the sequencer together! Never mond innovation, just industry standard would be nice. But that's another threat...
Yeah that would be a longshot getting something at the level of Fabfilter but at the same time, Reason Studios need to get the Mclass Devices out of the year 2005 (GUI was even somewhat outdated then compared to what DAWs like Sonar had then with the Sonitus Suite which was a bit more modern GUI). Reason defninitely shouldn't just ignore these devices (or whatever devices they choose for basic general mixing tasks). These devices are pretty outdated from a GUI perspective. They did add the spectrum view to the SSL EQ but even that could be improved and made to be more flexible.
Thing is there are loads of devices with decent enough coding but horrid gui. It makes me think there’s room for more gui utilities. Like the X Y pads that have come out as REs. But could that idea be pushed further?...

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