Has VST-support ruined Reason?

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EnochLight
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Post 23 Jul 2020

avasopht wrote:
23 Jul 2020
Well, at least you're not afraid to admit it :twisted:
Hahah! Yeah, the eye roll and laughing emoji were there for a reason. :D ;)
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mcatalao
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Post 23 Jul 2020

DaveyG wrote:
23 Jul 2020

Once again, look beyond the Island of Reason and you'll find FX Chains that can be saved and loaded as if they were a single Fx, can be shared with other users and can even chained together with other Fx Chains. And I only showed you the routing view of Studio One. It also has a macro control view where you can assign anything to knobs, buttons and x-y pads. 8 knobs, 8 buttons and 2 x-y pads. Um, did someone say super combinator?

In reality both approaches have their strengths and weaknesses. After all, I must still be here for some reason, and that reason is Reason. But the whole Combinator/weird wiring thing is very much a niche part of Reason rather than the mass appeal part.
I don't know Studio One or Abelton, i know Cubase and Reaper and of course, Reason. FX Chains in these softwares are a mess, Reaper can route everything to everything and save the fx chains but they are a PITA to configure, and from what i see none make it so simple or are as versatile as propellerhead did with the combinator.

While you might think combis are not magic, if you think about the time they are around (the combi got out in Reason V2.5, circa 2002 or 2003), they were quite ahead of time and other daws took a while to do something similar.

Anyway there is something we agree, the combi is due for a good review (more controls and routings - though the programmer and routing are already good, but yes, the combinator is in dire need of more buttons and knobs... and a x-y pad would be interesting too).

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EnochLight
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Post 23 Jul 2020

mcatalao wrote:
23 Jul 2020
While you might think combis are not magic, if you think about the time they are around (the combi got out in Reason V2.5, circa 2002 or 2003), they were quite ahead of time and other daws took a while to do something similar.
2005, actually (10th of March, to be exact). I agree though - I do wish they'd update it. It's long been overdue for a modern refresh.
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DaveyG
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Post 23 Jul 2020

mcatalao wrote:
23 Jul 2020
if you think about the time they are around (the combi got out in Reason V2.5, circa 2002 or 2003), they were quite ahead of time and other daws took a while to do something similar.
We can absolutely agree on that but that was then and I don't know when it started but Reason has gone from being a bold innovator to getting lapped by most of the other race cars. They used to do stuff no-one else had thought of. Now they don't even seem to realise how far behind they have fallen. It's not a bad product, but it's not even second division fodder these days. They really are living on past glories when they should be sniping at FL Studio, Live, Bitwig etc.

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hurricane
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Post 23 Jul 2020

EnochLight wrote:
23 Jul 2020
I'm a RS "apologist".
Everyone on this board knows it. I took the lols and rolls out of your quote for your convenience, you're welcome!

Interesting thing though, and maybe it's just me, but I'm noticing less "OMG I'm so happy with Reason" users on this board and more people in the "I'm tired of this sh*t" camp. Or just maybe those of us in camp #2 are a bit more vocal.

Whatever - they need to hear the noise we're making.
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EnochLight
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Post 23 Jul 2020

hurricane wrote:
23 Jul 2020
Everyone on this board knows it. I took the lols and rolls out of your quote for your convenience, you're welcome!
:roll:

Well, no - that's just you inventing your own narrative to fit your salty view and weak character assassination . It's OK, man - I'll play that part. Everyone needs a villain. :thumbs_up:
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mcatalao
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Post 24 Jul 2020

hurricane wrote:
23 Jul 2020
Whatever - they need to hear the noise we're making.
Depends on the noise. I try do to my noise in a constructive way. I've complained many times, sent Feature suggestions, complained on Social Media, even compared reason to other daws on some specific features or the lack of them. Being a fanboy (or a reason Apologist) does not mean we're dumb or blindfolded.

I've invested sufficient time in reason to know it almost as the palm of my hand, and the way things are layered allow me to work almost with my eyes closed. It's that simple, that effective, that coherent. I don't need that change.
If it doesn't suit you, fine, I respect that.

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mcatalao
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Post 24 Jul 2020

EnochLight wrote:
23 Jul 2020

2005, actually (10th of March, to be exact). I agree though - I do wish they'd update it. It's long been overdue for a modern refresh.
You're right. I thought the combinator got out on 2.5 but it was added only on Reason 3. Good catch!

ltbrunt00
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Post 24 Jul 2020

VST has let Reason take it to another level.
I was on the verge of not quitting Reason prior to VST support but started to use Reason less and less for all new projects opting to use Studio One/Cubase.
I did not care for rewire and once they added VST Support I was hooked. I now use Studio One/Cubase less to start new projects. Many of the projects I start in S1 and Cubase I eventually move over to Reason.
I am more interested in Reason growing as a DAW.
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avasopht
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Post 24 Jul 2020

Funnily enough, I just embraced the environment with its REs and Refills.

But earlier this year I dug my heels into EWQL, and more recently the Korg Triton Collection.

Then I decided to give Live Lite a go with RRP Lite and found it a much better composition and playing environment when using Push.

So in a way, VST has led to Reason taking a bit of a supporting role in my composition, but I wouldn't say it's ruined it at all. Reason was always about the Rack for me anyway.
---

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syncanonymous
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Post 05 Feb 2021

esselfortium wrote:
15 Jul 2020
Opening Reason up to the wider plugin market also curbed the flow of scammers like Softphonics who made their business illegally repackaging inferior knockoff versions of other developers' sample libraries to sell to Reason users who had no other options.
I did not know this :-/
I did wonder what happened
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ltbrunt00
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Post 05 Feb 2021

As far as music making goes Reason adding VST support has been one of the highlights of my life. I use Reason in some capacity every day. I work, Raising a family. Eat, Sleep & Reason.

Years ago started looking at all the cool VST instruments getting created. The original Shreddage VST blew my mind. Since Reason didn't have VST support I started using other DAW software. Started with Cubase. Cubase is great but I found I wasn't making music as fast with it compared to Reason. One day I trialed Studio One and instantly fell in love with it. Was able to make music as fast in Studio one as in Reason. I got Bitwig at a discounted price which I like way more the Ableton. I only wish the Props would have added VST back in Reason 6 or 7. I probably would not spent money on other DAW software.

The Reason Plugin is a game changer. I now think of Reason being the same as Native Instruments Komplete base package but better. I know a few people that after showing them that they could now use reason as a Plugin in any DAW. They went ahead and purchased a copy.
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Arrant
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Post 06 Feb 2021

VST support has probably saved Reason, without it I fear we would only have had the rack plugin by now and not much else. It is a shame it didn't arrive a couple of versions earlier, like Reason 7 or 8.
Rack Extensions are good in theory, but had too many shortcomings and weren't attractive enough to the big developers to get enough traction. Sure, there are some cool ones and in some ways the workflow is better, but VST variety and (top end) quality is just so much greater. And as long as we don't have RACK ZOOM the popup-windows (usually resizable for good VSTs) are better GUI-wise than miniscule rack devices anyway .
VST support also makes Reason appealing to a broader field of users. Imagine for example trying to ask a soundtrack composer to work without his Kontakt libraries, it's just not gonna happen.

Personally, VST support has injected more life into my music making. My only regret is the money spent on countless REs which I hardly ever use.

cocoazenith
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Post 06 Feb 2021

On the contrary. It has opened Reason in ways one could only imagine and it has drawn old or new users in. I am one of
them. Even with the burden of not having VST3 support and having to use CPU straining containers such as Unify.

Arguably that's the only good thing that happened with the DAW since 2017. I ache for a higher resolution GUI and a more
snappy and fluid experience on MacOS. Apart from these the software is pretty complete IMHO. I never cared for Reason's
(or any other DAW's for that matter) stock devices and I really don't get the developer's continuing hyper-focus on releasing
their instruments, that more or less already present in another form on the market, instead on working on what has been
urgent for so long.

Marketing wise one could have deducted that after allowing the infinite pool of VSTs into the rack, they will shift their focus
away from new devices and from competing in the plug-in market and go all the way into making the DAW more competitive.

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avasopht
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Post 06 Feb 2021

Arrant wrote:
06 Feb 2021
Rack Extensions are good in theory, but had too many shortcomings and weren't attractive enough to the big developers to get enough traction. Sure, there are some cool ones and in some ways the workflow is better, but VST variety and (top end) quality is just so much greater. And as long as we don't have RACK ZOOM the popup-windows (usually resizable for good VSTs) are better GUI-wise than miniscule rack devices anyway .
I got the impression they just don't see a likely payoff.

It's trivial to turn a Kontakt patch into a Rack Extension via IDT. ReasonStudios showed with Complex what is possible with a custom display and a little creativity.

There are a few VSTs that would work perfectly as a Rack Extension, like Xpand!2.

If RS could offer a free RRP for making REs available as VSTs (it loads a single RE or its internally stored combinator patches), it would be an easy win for many VST developers by providing solid copy protection and forward compatibility to new platforms (such as Apple's change to a new processor).

You'd see a lot more big names making REs if the userbase was larger.
---

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SebAudio
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Post 07 Feb 2021

avasopht wrote:
06 Feb 2021
I got the impression they just don't see a likely payoff.
You'd see a lot more big names making REs if the userbase was larger.
There’re big names at RE launch and they’ve all gone. So likely not enough ROI.
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pquenin
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Post 07 Feb 2021

When I use Reason alone, I tend to use the internal devices first, you can do a lot with them and some creativity.
I have chosen Reason because I was tired of all these VST plugins incompatibilities (32 bit, 64 bit VST2, 64 bit VST3, and what next...), some will continue to work in your DAW, some won't...
But it's great to be able to add some VSTs in Reason if you lack a fonctionnality.
But VST support in Reason had a big impact on the audio engine in Reason, certainly good and bad things.
And this support will continue to be a time consuming process (VST Midi, VST3). To the detriment of improvements of the sequencer, workflow, UI of Reason itself.

I also think that the RPP plugin, Lite, Intro or standard is a great thing for RE Developpers, as it can open the RE market to the VST market, and new users that don't use Reason as a DAW.

But the introduction of Reason+ is worrying :
- I suppose the free RPP Lite version of Plugin Boutique was a strategic way to accustom new users to Reason, in the hope of selling them the new subscription.
- Intro is discontinued, and as a VST plugin, it was one of the best offer of the VST market. Now there is no cheap access to the Reason world, as a standalone or a VST.
- Reason+ tend to put RE developpers outside the game, as you can't buy RE if you only have Reason+ alone.

So there was a tendency to open Reason to the ouside world (RE was the first step, then internal VST support and now Reason as a plugin).
But now it seems that Reason Studios want to take back control on Reason and bring it to where it began : a rack of tools entirely controlled by Reason Studios. So I am not confident in the future of Reason as a standalone DAW, and external RE products.
Maybe R12 will bring some light, but I 'm afraid we will have to wait till the end of the year...

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syncanonymous
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Post 08 Feb 2021

pquenin wrote:
07 Feb 2021
I have chosen Reason because I was tired of all these VST plugins incompatibilities (32 bit, 64 bit VST2, 64 bit VST3, and what next...), some will continue to work in your DAW, some won't...
But it's great to be able to add some VSTs in Reason if you lack a fonctionnality.
But VST support in Reason had a big impact on the audio engine in Reason, certainly good and bad things.
And this support will continue to be a time consuming process (VST Midi, VST3). To the detriment of improvements of the sequencer, workflow, UI of Reason itself.
yep, me too...dealing with VST incompatibilities was an issue. Even today...I mean literally today... I have firmware to update for a Morningstar MC-8 and updating all my Fab Filter VSTs. It's been a couple years since I updated the Fab Filter VSTs and getting instructions from online in attempt to verify my memory of the hoops to jump thru for said process isn't readily proving fruitful. On the plus side, the updates were free to official owners.

I think VST in Reason is great, tho. Reason+, tho, I have zero interest in. What I really want is SysEx automation in and out of my DAW. With what I have seen on this forum in the past 24 hrs, my jumping ship is likely forthcoming. I recently purchased the Player Bundle and am loving Kompulsion, yet negatives are certainly piling up.

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syncanonymous
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Post 08 Feb 2021

syncanonymous wrote:
05 Feb 2021
esselfortium wrote:
15 Jul 2020
Opening Reason up to the wider plugin market also curbed the flow of scammers like Softphonics who made their business illegally repackaging inferior knockoff versions of other developers' sample libraries to sell to Reason users who had no other options.
I did not know this :-/
I did wonder what happened
Oh my, I was completely unaware. In spring thru autumn 2018 I was hornswaggled into a complete house restoration project which ate up 12 to 20 hrs per day of my life from March through Sept that year alongside several other similar property projects which lasted until late 2019. After that I got back into hardware and have only recently rekindled music production with Reason. Being years late to the party has always been my MO.

I have now read the entire locked thread from May 2018. Sadly that thread was locked before arriving at any sort of conclusion. Neither Propellerheads nor Reason Studios have contacted me regarding that matter so after 2.5 years I currently know of no final word on the scam. I can see a solution for any productions which were sold: purchase licenses for the relevant Kontact libraries seems to me to be a safety blanket for users who were victims of the scams. Which libraries to purchase? IDK for sure...I'll look into that

Further, I have found that if I click any old links to softphonics on Reasontalk, my antivirus goes crazy as 90% the maybe 5 links I have clicked have landed on suspicious and potentially dangerous, infected targets.

Anyone who was here on Reasontalk in, what, 2015? would have been seeing threads singing praises for softphonics and euphonics...I definitely participated in such discissions

Thank goodness I found this trail before using any more Softphonics refills because my main recent music work has been almost all either me playing guitar, my brother's drums and the original FSB and Orkester.

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gullum
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Post 08 Feb 2021

Yes it has without VST they would have spent last 4-5 years only on the daw futures of reason. We might have better sequencer and even HI res graphics

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Jagwah
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Post 08 Feb 2021

I was always an in the box user, VSTs just made things better imo. I still prefer dedicated RE's but to have the choice definitely felt like the right decision, once I could use Massive and follow all the bass tuts on YT it felt really good.

I can't imagine how badly it would hurt sales if all the little kiddies knew Reason was lacking something major all the other DAWs had, and choosing Reason would mean they can't use the synthesizer VSTs their favorite producer used.

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avasopht
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Post 08 Feb 2021

gullum wrote:
08 Feb 2021
Yes it has without VST they would have spent last 4-5 years only on the daw futures of reason. We might have better sequencer and even HI res graphics
Is the VST work really that extensive? It was mostly written way back in around 2012, and that was when we got Rack Extensions, Polar, and lots of other gizmos and improvements.
---

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avasopht
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Post 08 Feb 2021

Jagwah wrote:
08 Feb 2021
I was always an in the box user, VSTs just made things better imo. I still prefer dedicated RE's but to have the choice definitely felt like the right decision, once I could use Massive and follow all the bass tuts on YT it felt really good.

I can't imagine how badly it would hurt sales if all the little kiddies knew Reason was lacking something major all the other DAWs had, and choosing Reason would mean they can't use the synthesizer VSTs their favorite producer used.
100%.

Between Xpand!2, a few synths I got cheap on PluginBoutique and the Korg Collection 2, I got all I need. I technically still have a month of EWQL cloud, but tbh, I don't really need it.

Without VST or RRP, maybe I might have migrated.
---

pquenin
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Post 08 Feb 2021

You are right, it's certainly difficult to sell a DAW that has no VST support ...

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gullum
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Post 08 Feb 2021

avasopht wrote:
08 Feb 2021
gullum wrote:
08 Feb 2021
Yes it has without VST they would have spent last 4-5 years only on the daw futures of reason. We might have better sequencer and even HI res graphics
Is the VST work really that extensive? It was mostly written way back in around 2012, and that was when we got Rack Extensions, Polar, and lots of other gizmos and improvements.
maybe not.
I was being sarcastic a tiny bit. I know many wanted VST only I am on reason 11 and have not installed 1 VST to use with reason.

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