Three Subtractor questions

[Thousand Ways]

Three questions about Subtractor. Any thoughts much appreciated. I'm using Reason 8, but I assume that Subtractor hasn't substantially changed since.

1) Mix dial: if only oscillator 1 is on, then the mix dial gives oscillator 1 when fully anticlockwise and silence when fully clockwise. If osc 2 is switched on, I would still expect to hear pure osc 1 when the mix dial is fully anticlockwise, but this isn't what I get. The signal seems to be a mix of osc 1 and something else. Can someone explain why? And is there no way of setting up the mix dial so that fully anticlockwise = pure osc 1 and fully clockwise = pure osc 2?

2) also Mix dial: how does it work when oscs 1 and 2 and Noise are on? The manual does not really explain this. I would have expected fully anticlockwise to give pure osc 1, halfway to give more Noise, and fully clockwise to give pure osc 2. Why doesn't it behave like this? Can someone explain how the Noise dial does work when both oscs + Noise are on?

3) this is a less important question; it's just something I find puzzling: the manual explains the 3 possible modes for the Phase dials for oscillators 1 and 2, these being "0", "-" and "X". "0" is "off": here the phase dial has no effect. Why does this "0" mode exist? Why aren't the options just "-", "X", and turn the phase dial fully anticlockwise?

Merci.

[Loque]

1) Its a Mix knob between Osc1 and Osc2, nothing more, nothing less. Full left its only Osc1, full right its only Osc2. If there is no signal, it gets mixed with "no signal". What else would you expect in a Mixing knob if just one signal is not audible?

2) See answer 1. Its a mix knob. If you add "Noise", you add it to OSc2 signal path, not both. Its good to have, so you can mix between one Osc and Noise.

3) "0" just means there is no modulation, its just mixing. The other modes are Subtracting (synthesis model!) and Multiplication (bonus synthesis model). Having 0 is good for unreleated use of oscillators, mabe for FM only or something like this. And AFIR "0" has no phase reset.

[Chizmata]

1) Mix dial: if only oscillator 1 is on, then the mix dial gives oscillator 1 when fully anticlockwise and silence when fully clockwise. If osc 2 is switched on, I would still expect to hear pure osc 1 when the mix dial is fully clockwise, but this isn't what I get. The signal seems to be a mix of osc 1 and something else. Can someone explain why? And is there no way of setting up the mix dial so that fully anticlockwise = pure osc 1 and fully clockwise = pure osc 2?

it usually works like you say it should. maybe you have fm on? and i think you made a typo, you wanna say "I would still expect to hear pure osc 1 when the mix dial is fully ANTI- clockwise", right?

[Thousand Ways]

i think you made a typo, you wanna say "I would still expect to hear pure osc 1 when the mix dial is fully ANTI- clockwise", right?

That's right – thanks. I've corrected it.

[Thousand Ways]

1) What else would you expect in a Mixing knob if just one signal is not audible?

I meant that the Mix dial is effectively mixing between three things, surely: osc 1 / osc 2 / noise?

The way that it seems to work is that noise is appended to oscillator 2. So if you've got both oscs and noise switched on, the mix dial only allows you to mix between osc 1 (anticlockwise) and a combination of osc 2 with a fixed amount of noise (clockwise). If you want to alter the balance between osc 2 and noise, you have to do this via the noise section's level dial. It would make more sense to me if the mix dial worked in the way that I described above: anticlockwise = pure osc 1 / halfway = more noise / clockwise = pure osc 2.

Having 0 is good for unreleated use of oscillators, mabe for FM only or something like this.

Ah, I think I see. Thanks.

[Loque]

1) What else would you expect in a Mixing knob if just one signal is not audible?

I meant that the Mix dial is effectively mixing between three things, surely: osc 1 / osc 2 / noise?

The way that it seems to work is that noise is appended to oscillator 2. So if you've got both oscs and noise switched on, the mix dial only allows you to mix between osc 1 (anticlockwise) and a combination of osc 2 with a fixed amount of noise (clockwise). If you want to alter the balance between osc 2 and noise, you have to do this via the noise section's level dial. It would make more sense to me if the mix dial worked in the way that I described above: anticlockwise = pure osc 1 / halfway = more noise / clockwise = pure osc 2.

And how would you control Osc balancing and Noise on its own? Ofc would be nice to have all 3 sources on its own, but back in that time noone ever thought about a mod matrix so you just have Velocity->Mix control to balance out the oscilators. How old is Subtractor? 20 years?

[BRIGGS]

I meant that the Mix dial is effectively mixing between three things, surely: osc 1 / osc 2 / noise?

The way that it seems to work is that noise is appended to oscillator 2. So if you've got both oscs and noise switched on, the mix dial only allows you to mix between osc 1 (anticlockwise) and a combination of osc 2 with a fixed amount of noise (clockwise). If you want to alter the balance between osc 2 and noise, you have to do this via the noise section's level dial. It would make more sense to me if the mix dial worked in the way that I described above: anticlockwise = pure osc 1 / halfway = more noise / clockwise = pure osc 2.

And how would you control Osc balancing and Noise on its own? Ofc would be nice to have all 3 sources on its own, but back in that time noone ever thought about a mod matrix so you just have Velocity->Mix control to balance out the oscilators. How old is Subtractor? 20 years?

Subtractor: I is 20 years old!!!

Model D: Meh, I'm supposed to be impressed?

[dioxide]

3) Subtractor works as a normal 2 Osc synth when the Oscillators are in (o) mode. Subtractor has no Pulse Width adjust or modulation. When an Osc is in (–) mode, a second copy of the Oscillator is used and is subtracted from the first (hence the name of the device). This sounds a lot like Pulse Width adjust and when using a Square wave it's more or less identical, but Subtractor can do this will ALL waveforms. The (x) mode is similar to the (–) mode, except that it multiplies the Oscillator against itself rather than subtracting it.

[dioxide]

http://docs.propellerheads.se/reasonsui ... .33.1.html

Phase Offset Modulation
A unique feature of the Subtractor oscillators is the ability to create an extra waveform within one oscillator, to offset the phase of that extra waveform, and to modulate this phase offset. By subtracting or multiplying a waveform with a phase offset copy of itself, very complex waveforms can be created. Sounds complicated? Well, the theory behind it might be, but from a user perspective it is just a method of generating new waveforms from existing waveforms.

A seasoned synth programmer using Subtractor for the first time may wonder why the Subtractor oscillators (seemingly) cannot provide the commonly used pulse waveform and the associated pulse width modulation (PWM). Or oscillator sync, another common feature in analog synthesizers. The simple answer is that Subtractor can easily create pulse waveforms (with PWM) and oscillator sync-sounds, and a lot more besides, partly by the use of phase offset modulation.

When phase offset modulation is activated, the oscillator creates a second waveform of the same shape and offsets it by the amount set with the Phase knob. Depending on the selected mode, Subtractor then either subtracts or multiplies the two waveforms with each other. The resulting waveforms can be seen in the illustration below.