How long do you think it will take to update reason to work on ARM Macs?

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flexluthor
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Post 22 Jun 2020

I mean, they still haven’t updated it to work on retina displays. Are we in for another 10 year wait once Apple switches to arm?

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BRIGGS
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Post 22 Jun 2020

flexluthor wrote:
22 Jun 2020
I mean, they still haven’t updated it to work on retina displays. Are we in for another 10 year wait once Apple switches to arm?
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Murf
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Post 23 Jun 2020

flexluthor wrote:
22 Jun 2020
I mean, they still haven’t updated it to work on retina displays. Are we in for another 10 year wait once Apple switches to arm?
Wouldn't Xcode take care of most of the heavy lifting in that case? Depends how much intel specific codefunkery Props have in the Reason code I guess.

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MattiasHG
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Post 23 Jun 2020

flexluthor wrote:
22 Jun 2020
I mean, they still haven’t updated it to work on retina displays. Are we in for another 10 year wait once Apple switches to arm?
There's a dev kit en route to us in Stockholm as I type this. :)

I'm not a developer, but the move from PPC to Intel (remember that?) was rather painless and quick. The support for both architectures was around for a couple years, too. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely work, but we hope to be ready in good time.

Billy
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Post 23 Jun 2020

MattiasHG wrote:
23 Jun 2020
flexluthor wrote:
22 Jun 2020
I mean, they still haven’t updated it to work on retina displays. Are we in for another 10 year wait once Apple switches to arm?
There's a dev kit en route to us in Stockholm as I type this. :)

I'm not a developer, but the move from PPC to Intel (remember that?) was rather painless and quick. The support for both architectures was around for a couple years, too. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely work, but we hope to be ready in good time.
Hi Mattias, so does this mean that Mac will have multiple versions of download one for intel one for arm or will old OS / Intel hardware be dropped?
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MattiasHG
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Post 23 Jun 2020

Billy wrote:
23 Jun 2020
MattiasHG wrote:
23 Jun 2020


There's a dev kit en route to us in Stockholm as I type this. :)

I'm not a developer, but the move from PPC to Intel (remember that?) was rather painless and quick. The support for both architectures was around for a couple years, too. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely work, but we hope to be ready in good time.
Hi Mattias, so does this mean that Mac will have multiple versions of download one for intel one for arm or will old OS / Intel hardware be dropped?
I was just speaking to how PPC/Intel was handled. You should check out WWDC to find out the details straight from the source: https://developer.apple.com/wwdc20/

But there seems to be something called Rosetta that "translates" intel to the new world. How that'll work, no one knows yet: https://developer.apple.com/documentati ... nvironment

flexluthor
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Post 23 Jun 2020

Well since iPadOS is arm and macOS is going to be arm too maybe there’s a chance we get reason on the iPad 😎

Billy
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Post 23 Jun 2020

Thanks mattias, will check out the doc, but I guess from what you replied we could be looking at iPad Pro running Reason at some point in the future.
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fieldframe
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Post 23 Jun 2020

I wouldn't be surprised if the current work on rewriting Reason's GUI layer with modern frameworks and code practices is going to have a bonus effect of making it less of a headache to port to ARM.
The Iron Law of Reason forums: All topics eventually turn into feature request threads; the only difference is how many posts it takes.

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Steedus
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Post 23 Jun 2020

I really appreciate you piping in so quick Mattias.

I know it's an unfair reaction, but when I heard about the ARM Macs (and knowing the performance issues that are still present on current Macs), I couldn't help but roll my eyes and think, well this is going to be a nightmare for Reason users in the next couple of years.

Sometimes all we need to know is confirmation that you (RS) are aware of certain things and are looking into them. For the longest time I genuinely thought RS had zero interest in a visual/high res upgrade. I was pleased as punch to finally hear it confirmed - even if it is a long way off.

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Aquila
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Post 24 Jun 2020

MattiasHG wrote:
23 Jun 2020
=the move from PPC to Intel (remember that?) was rather painless and quick
If I recall, PPC was RISC based architecture, so it's definitely been done before. I wonder how similar it will be in comparison to ARM?

boesOne
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Post 24 Jun 2020

Steedus wrote:
23 Jun 2020
I really appreciate you piping in so quick Mattias.

I know it's an unfair reaction, but when I heard about the ARM Macs (and knowing the performance issues that are still present on current Macs), I couldn't help but roll my eyes and think, well this is going to be a nightmare for Reason users in the next couple of years.

Sometimes all we need to know is confirmation that you (RS) are aware of certain things and are looking into them. For the longest time I genuinely thought RS had zero interest in a visual/high res upgrade. I was pleased as punch to finally hear it confirmed - even if it is a long way off.
I'm not worried about Reason itself. It's mostly a matter of recompiling to ARM. I guess that the re's are abstract enough to be ported also quite easily. But all vst's must also be recompiled. So i think. a lot of old gems will not be available on ARM. Emulation with cpu heavy software is a thing to be avoided i think.

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buddard
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Post 24 Jun 2020

boesOne wrote:
24 Jun 2020
Steedus wrote:
23 Jun 2020
I really appreciate you piping in so quick Mattias.

I know it's an unfair reaction, but when I heard about the ARM Macs (and knowing the performance issues that are still present on current Macs), I couldn't help but roll my eyes and think, well this is going to be a nightmare for Reason users in the next couple of years.

Sometimes all we need to know is confirmation that you (RS) are aware of certain things and are looking into them. For the longest time I genuinely thought RS had zero interest in a visual/high res upgrade. I was pleased as punch to finally hear it confirmed - even if it is a long way off.
I'm not worried about Reason itself. It's mostly a matter of recompiling to ARM. I guess that the re's are abstract enough to be ported also quite easily. But all vst's must also be recompiled. So i think. a lot of old gems will not be available on ARM. Emulation with cpu heavy software is a thing to be avoided i think.
Porting the REs will be the easiest part, I think. They're already stored in a platform-independent LLVM format, it's just a matter of recompiling them for the new architecture.

As for VSTs, that will be up to each developer. The biggest problem will of course be "abandoned" VSTs, but I guess most of them were weeded out by the 64 bit requirement.

Rosetta 2 is not emulated, it translates the Intel binary to ARM in-memory before launching the app. So it will affect startup times, and it will likely be slightly more poorly optimized than a native ARM-build, but it shouldn't have the same performance hit as an actual emulation.

I think the biggest problem is that you won't be able to "mix and match", i e if you launch the ARM version of Reason you can't load Intel plugins, and if you explicitly launch the Intel version (which will be an option in macOS!) you can't load ARM plugins.
So it will be interesting to see whether Authorizer will download REs in ARM format only, or if they will include the Intel binaries as well.

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wendylou
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Post 26 Jun 2020

My 27” 2013 iMac suffered a hardware failure 2 months ago, so I’ve without a computer an unable to use Reason Suite 😂. I’ve been eagerly awaiting the forthcoming 3rd quarter ((July-September) iMac refresh sporting Intel Core i10 and Navi graphics... now the ARM transition news.

Apple said the first ARM chips will include a 24” iMac perhaps in the 4th quarter, and no one knows exactly when 27” or larger ARM iMacs will debut. It’s a heck of a time to invest in perhaps the last Intel iMac! Clearly, I can’t wait until sometime in 2021 for a 27”+ ARM iMac.

How worried should I be about buying an expensive Intel iMac shortly? (I guess my situation will be similar to those who have recently invested in an Intel iMac and who are also watching this ARM transition.)

Backstory: I really suffered during the PowerPC to Intel transition, having just gotten a PowePC prior to their announcement to switch to Intel - which only took 11 months. My PowerPC struggled with heavy Reason tracks unlike the Intel version. I felt bad that I did not get the Intel back then.
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mcatalao
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Post 26 Jun 2020

I don't know what to think about this turn of events, but if Apple can pull out desktop performances with no air cooling I sure hope that gets to normal pc's...

We still have to wait. PowerPc's (wich were Risc cpu's as ARM's are) were getting trashed by intels at the time and despite translators like rosetta and others, there will be some turmoile.

Anyhow... my humble studio does not have a budget for mac stuff. I prefer to use the price difference on other kind of stuff, like mic's and instruments...

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QVprod
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Post 26 Jun 2020

wendylou wrote:
26 Jun 2020
My 27” 2013 iMac suffered a hardware failure 2 months ago, so I’ve without a computer an unable to use Reason Suite 😂. I’ve been eagerly awaiting the forthcoming 3rd quarter ((July-September) iMac refresh sporting Intel Core i10 and Navi graphics... now the ARM transition news.

Apple said the first ARM chips will include a 24” iMac perhaps in the 4th quarter, and no one knows exactly when 27” or larger ARM iMacs will debut. It’s a heck of a time to invest in perhaps the last Intel iMac! Clearly, I can’t wait until sometime in 2021 for a 27”+ ARM iMac.

How worried should I be about buying an expensive Intel iMac shortly? (I guess my situation will be similar to those who have recently invested in an Intel iMac and who are also watching this ARM transition.)

Backstory: I really suffered during the PowerPC to Intel transition, having just gotten a PowePC prior to their announcement to switch to Intel - which only took 11 months. My PowerPC struggled with heavy Reason tracks unlike the Intel version. I felt bad that I did not get the Intel back then.
They did say they'd be supporting intel macs for a while still. They're even releasing new intel macs this year, so you should be fine if you buy an intel mac for now. Apps compiled for silicon with their universal binary are said to work on intel macs as well. It'll be another 2 years before macs stop shipping with intel chips entirely and possibly a few more years before they stop supporting them. If you can though, I'd wait for an official announcement. Apple hasn't said anything themselves yet. I'd find it strange that the 24' iMac would have the new processor and the 27" not.

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tronam
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Post 27 Jun 2020

wendylou wrote:
26 Jun 2020
My 27” 2013 iMac suffered a hardware failure 2 months ago, so I’ve without a computer an unable to use Reason Suite 😂. I’ve been eagerly awaiting the forthcoming 3rd quarter ((July-September) iMac refresh sporting Intel Core i10 and Navi graphics... now the ARM transition news.

Apple said the first ARM chips will include a 24” iMac perhaps in the 4th quarter, and no one knows exactly when 27” or larger ARM iMacs will debut. It’s a heck of a time to invest in perhaps the last Intel iMac! Clearly, I can’t wait until sometime in 2021 for a 27”+ ARM iMac.

How worried should I be about buying an expensive Intel iMac shortly? (I guess my situation will be similar to those who have recently invested in an Intel iMac and who are also watching this ARM transition.)

Backstory: I really suffered during the PowerPC to Intel transition, having just gotten a PowePC prior to their announcement to switch to Intel - which only took 11 months. My PowerPC struggled with heavy Reason tracks unlike the Intel version. I felt bad that I did not get the Intel back then.
Team 2005 G5 PowerMac here, so I can relate. :D There are some difference this time though which makes me feel more optimistic about this transition. Even though the current Intel chips run really hot, they perform well (especially in larger enclosures with better cooling like iMac) and Apple's resources, experience and developer tools are orders of magnitude better than back in 2006. Not only will they be releasing more Intel Macs in the future, but I fully expect niche systems like Mac Pro to remain Intel for 3-5 years at least, so they'll continue to release and support Intel versions of macOS for a long time yet. They don't sunset hardware and software support until at least 5 years after they're no longer sold anyway, so I'm not too concerned. I think curiosity, more than anything, is what's tempting me to hold off buying a new MacBook Pro right now. I wouldn't hesitate to get the upcoming 27" iMac refresh. My 2019 has been fantastic so far: fast, quiet, stable and I continue to be impressed by the quality of their 5K retina displays.

Bjørn Felle
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Post 27 Jun 2020

To be honest I would love it if they continued to support Intel Macs indefinitely, as I use a Hackintosh so have no choice but to use Intel mac OS. But I realise this is unrealistic, and eventually mac OS and ultimately Reason will go completely ARM. Maybe by then there will be ARM hackintosh builds, as otherwise I might have to make the painful decision to switch to Windows :/
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selig
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Post 27 Jun 2020

flexluthor wrote:
22 Jun 2020
I mean, they still haven’t updated it to work on retina displays. Are we in for another 10 year wait once Apple switches to arm?
I've had two retina display iMacs in the past (2012 and 2015 IIRC), still have both, still work fine with Reason.
If it's not working with Reason, I've not noticed it! :)
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bxbrkrz
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Post 27 Jun 2020

Bjørn Felle wrote:
27 Jun 2020
To be honest I would love it if they continued to support Intel Macs indefinitely, as I use a Hackintosh so have no choice but to use Intel mac OS. But I realise this is unrealistic, and eventually mac OS and ultimately Reason will go completely ARM. Maybe by then there will be ARM hackintosh builds, as otherwise I might have to make the painful decision to switch to Windows :/
I am not too optimistic about the ARMkintosh. The integration between the hardware and the software will be extremely tight, with the hardware copy protection running within the ARM cpu, instead of on a separate chip like their T2 right now.

About the Apple T2 Security Chip
The Apple T2 Security Chip brings a new level of integration and security to Mac.

The Apple T2 Security Chip is Apple's second-generation, custom silicon for Mac. By redesigning and integrating several controllers found in other Mac computers—such as the System Management Controller, image signal processor, audio controller, and SSD controller—the T2 chip delivers new capabilities to your Mac.

For example, the T2 chip enables a new level of security by including a secure enclave coprocessor that secures Touch ID data and provides the foundation for new encrypted storage and secure boot capabilities. And the T2 chip's image signal processor works with the FaceTime HD camera to enable enhanced tone mapping, improved exposure control, and face-detection–based autoexposure and auto white balance.


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

I don't see how anyone will be able to hack this in the future. I could be wrong, obviously.

Bjørn Felle
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Post 28 Jun 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
27 Jun 2020
Bjørn Felle wrote:
27 Jun 2020
To be honest I would love it if they continued to support Intel Macs indefinitely, as I use a Hackintosh so have no choice but to use Intel mac OS. But I realise this is unrealistic, and eventually mac OS and ultimately Reason will go completely ARM. Maybe by then there will be ARM hackintosh builds, as otherwise I might have to make the painful decision to switch to Windows :/
I am not too optimistic about the ARMkintosh. The integration between the hardware and the software will be extremely tight, with the hardware copy protection running within the ARM cpu, instead of on a separate chip like their T2 right now.

About the Apple T2 Security Chip
The Apple T2 Security Chip brings a new level of integration and security to Mac.

The Apple T2 Security Chip is Apple's second-generation, custom silicon for Mac. By redesigning and integrating several controllers found in other Mac computers—such as the System Management Controller, image signal processor, audio controller, and SSD controller—the T2 chip delivers new capabilities to your Mac.

For example, the T2 chip enables a new level of security by including a secure enclave coprocessor that secures Touch ID data and provides the foundation for new encrypted storage and secure boot capabilities. And the T2 chip's image signal processor works with the FaceTime HD camera to enable enhanced tone mapping, improved exposure control, and face-detection–based autoexposure and auto white balance.


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

I don't see how anyone will be able to hack this in the future. I could be wrong, obviously.
Yeah it seems that way sadly. I do have Windows 10 on my hackintosh and after using Autohotkey to make the keyboard work like mac OS it’s not that painful to use, so if Reason drops support for Intel mac OS I will probably switch to Windows sadly
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chimp_spanner
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Post 28 Jun 2020

Gonna be watching this very closely. I've only been on Mac for about a year and a half after 25+ years of PC. Gotta say, I do like it. It's fast, very low maintenance, and I spend *way* less time (none at all in fact) messing with stuff to make it work. Don't miss faffing with regedit or user accounts even a tiny bit. I have found the choice of software to be a little limited sometimes, at least when it comes to old or "indie" apps. Windows definitely has a superior selection of utilities and tools and it's taken me a long time to find equivalents on Mac, and then a long time again for the ones I did find to become Catalina compatible.

That said, all Windows would need to do to bring me back is two things;

Sort out Windows Audio - it needs an equivalent to Core Audio like, yesterday

And...

For the love of God cool it with updates.

I know that Mac money would get me a ridiculous PC rig, but Core Audio has made my life so much easier. I'd be loathe to leave it.

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bxbrkrz
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Post 28 Jun 2020

Bjørn Felle wrote:
28 Jun 2020
bxbrkrz wrote:
27 Jun 2020


I am not too optimistic about the ARMkintosh. The integration between the hardware and the software will be extremely tight, with the hardware copy protection running within the ARM cpu, instead of on a separate chip like their T2 right now.

About the Apple T2 Security Chip
The Apple T2 Security Chip brings a new level of integration and security to Mac.

The Apple T2 Security Chip is Apple's second-generation, custom silicon for Mac. By redesigning and integrating several controllers found in other Mac computers—such as the System Management Controller, image signal processor, audio controller, and SSD controller—the T2 chip delivers new capabilities to your Mac.

For example, the T2 chip enables a new level of security by including a secure enclave coprocessor that secures Touch ID data and provides the foundation for new encrypted storage and secure boot capabilities. And the T2 chip's image signal processor works with the FaceTime HD camera to enable enhanced tone mapping, improved exposure control, and face-detection–based autoexposure and auto white balance.


https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208862

I don't see how anyone will be able to hack this in the future. I could be wrong, obviously.
Yeah it seems that way sadly. I do have Windows 10 on my hackintosh and after using Autohotkey to make the keyboard work like mac OS it’s not that painful to use, so if Reason drops support for Intel mac OS I will probably switch to Windows sadly
Microsoft will push for ARM on their platform too.
A future where it would be difficult to run Linux (or anything else) on a ARM based Macs or PC, or have your apps to only be installed from their approved app store first.
That world is what would scare me the most personally.

Bjørn Felle
Posts: 171
Joined: 15 Sep 2019

Post 29 Jun 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
28 Jun 2020
Microsoft will push for ARM on their platform too.
A future where it would be difficult to run Linux (or anything else) on a ARM based Macs or PC, or have your apps to only be installed from their approved app store first.
That world is what would scare me the most personally.
Ahh yeah man I am so sick of OS developers making it harder to run “unapproved” software and filling the OS with warnings while pushing their own DRM-filled stores. I get that security is a concern but I don’t believe that is really why they do it. It seems to be more about locking users into an ecosystem consisting of software and services that are not available on other platforms. I would be fine in principle with MS going ARM if this caused hardware manufacturers to start producing high end ARM ATX motherboards and CPUs which could potentially run ARM mac OS as well as ARM Linux distros. But I’m not interested at all in app store DRM bullshit and this seems to be the way it’s going. Regrettably what this probably means for me is getting to a point where I no longer upgrade Reason (if it gets to a point where Intel is no longer supported).
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bxbrkrz
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Post 29 Jun 2020

Bjørn Felle wrote:
29 Jun 2020
bxbrkrz wrote:
28 Jun 2020
Microsoft will push for ARM on their platform too.
A future where it would be difficult to run Linux (or anything else) on a ARM based Macs or PC, or have your apps to only be installed from their approved app store first.
That world is what would scare me the most personally.
Ahh yeah man I am so sick of OS developers making it harder to run “unapproved” software and filling the OS with warnings while pushing their own DRM-filled stores. I get that security is a concern but I don’t believe that is really why they do it. It seems to be more about locking users into an ecosystem consisting of software and services that are not available on other platforms. I would be fine in principle with MS going ARM if this caused hardware manufacturers to start producing high end ARM ATX motherboards and CPUs which could potentially run ARM mac OS as well as ARM Linux distros. But I’m not interested at all in app store DRM bullshit and this seems to be the way it’s going. Regrettably what this probably means for me is getting to a point where I no longer upgrade Reason (if it gets to a point where Intel is no longer supported).
This is nothing new. The pattern is clear. Here is an old article from 2015. They will never stop.

When Windows 8 rolled up to the curb, Microsoft did its best to enforce a protocol known as Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) Secure Boot. This was to be a modern replacement for the aging BIOS system and would help ensure boot-time malware couldn’t be injected into a system. For the most part, Linux has overcome those UEFI hurdles. However, with Windows 10, those hurdles could be returning.

This BIOS replacement, UEFI, caused some serious problems with “alternative” platforms. For some time, it was thought UEFI would render Linux uninstallable on any system certified for Windows 8 and up. Eventually Microsoft saw fit to require vendors to include a switch that allowed users to disable UEFI, so that their favorite Linux distribution could be installed. And then some Linux distributions set out to fully support Secure Boot (Red Hat, Ubuntu, SUSE, to name a few). This was accomplished by these particular companies purchasing digital key that would then allow their bootloaders to pass the UEFI firmware check. With that, those distributions have no problems dealing with Secure Boot.

So what are you to do when you have a new system and you want to install Linux? The answer isn’t always simple. This isn’t going to serve as a definitive how-to on booting Linux with UEFI Secure Boot. Because every distribution and every piece of hardware is different, your mileage will vary. This will, however, give you enough information that should start you off on the right foot with Linux and Secure boot.


https://www.linux.com/training-tutorial ... cure-boot/

So it's open source, but you need to $$$ a private key to DRM-freedom. Will the key still work in the next major structural UEFI updates?
The cake is a lie.

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