What happened to the mixer?

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QVprod
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Post 16 Jun 2020

Ninjadog wrote:
15 Jun 2020
That's what was throwing me off, there was no mixer!

I'm thinking I still know Reason good enough to start a new song. New Song opens up a rack with a Hardware Interface, and a Master Section with a couple of RV7000's Echo and a DDL1 routing thru the FX Send and Returns. Master Section master outs go to the Hardware Interface but I can't expand the HI to see where they land. I'm thinking that's odd...I'll just add a mixer. I looked at how I would route it in and got lost again...
ab459 wrote:
15 Jun 2020
sdst wrote:
14 Jun 2020


I still use it as the main mixer, Sometimes I forget the existence of the big mixer
After upgrade to 10, initially i had doing the same, since did not appreciate SSL benefits (maybe yet). Plus these invisible (wi-fi?) auto-connections from each synth, in my opinions go against initial Reason aesthetic.
It actually makes great sense if you think of it in the context of a patch bay. Anyone using an SSL mixer is using a patch bay. You see the wires coming from the instruments connected to mix channels (the patch bay in this case), but the connections from the patch bay to the mixer are not usually visible. I get the confusion though since original Reason was built around line mixers in a rack. Current Reason is built around a pro studio concept.

Btw... Ninjadog, good to see you here.

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kuhliloach
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Post 16 Jun 2020

IMO by default there should be no enormous SSL in Reason. That was a design mistake. It's like when your friend gives you a ping pong table as a gift. It has to go somewhere, so why not the kitchen? So the UI becomes both cluttered and confusing when new users are trying to figure out not just how to understand channel strips, but why mix channels appear in the rack.

True
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Post 16 Jun 2020

kuhliloach wrote:
16 Jun 2020
new users are trying to figure out not just how to understand channel strips, but why mix channels appear in the rack.
I think new users are supposed to focus on the sequencer and the SSL, and only go to the rack when they need to deal with settings and inserts. Then they can expand out from there as they become more comfortable.

Whether they have done it smoothly is debatable, but Reason has simply shifted from the rack being the focal point to the SSL being the focal point, with the rack behind it. The problem is more for people who were used to the old Reason with the rack focus, and for the new people getting advice from those older users.

Don't get me wrong, I love the rack. The day Reason abandons it is the last day I use Reason. But Props has definitely (and even specifically stated) that it is no longer supposed to be the main screen.

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QVprod
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Post 16 Jun 2020

kuhliloach wrote:
16 Jun 2020
IMO by default there should be no enormous SSL in Reason. That was a design mistake. It's like when your friend gives you a ping pong table as a gift. It has to go somewhere, so why not the kitchen? So the UI becomes both cluttered and confusing when new users are trying to figure out not just how to understand channel strips, but why mix channels appear in the rack.
I think it’s only confusing to old users because it’s unfamiliar. It’s pretty straightforward for a new user since they’re a no manual routing involved. Drag an instrument into the rack and it’s all set up. A lot of people found old Reason confusing because they didn’t understand how a mixer and inputs and output cables worked and no other DAW requires you to have that knowledge. A new user will never have to worry about loading an instrument and it not making sound, which was a pretty easy mistake to make pre-SSL mixer.

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selig
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Post 16 Jun 2020

jlgrimes wrote:
16 Jun 2020
Biggest gripe is Reason's mixer is more cumbersome (takes alot of GUI real estate) compared to other DAWS but I'd take Reasons current implementation over their old 14:2 mixer (although it worked good for just songwriting).
The reason it takes up more space is it's showing more at once. Most DAWs don't really show the channel strip unless you open any/all plugins for that channel. They also don't always show all sends at once, etc. Luckily you can collapse any section you're not using with Reason and get a more simplified view of things. The only missing feature from other DAWs is a "narrow channel" option, so squeeze more channels into the screen for bigger mixes.

Conversely, my problem with other DAWs is the DON'T take a lot of UI real estate! Meaning, they don't show details until you ask, and only one channel at a time. I'm an old school large format console guy, and I want to be able to scan across the mixer and see lots of overall information at once. With Pro Tools, the only way I could do that was with the ICON hardware controller, which could be set up to work similarly to an SSL where you can see gain reduction for all channels at once with a quick scan, and immediately see if any channel was doing too much (or not enough) at a glance. Reason is the only DAW where I can so quickly see the status of the entire mix at a glance, maybe with a bit of scrolling if the mix is super channel heavy.
Selig Audio, LLC

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kuhliloach
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Post 16 Jun 2020

Let's just call it what it is: a bad user interface. And its not just the awkward SSL in the middle of everything--the entire design philosophy with Reason just isn't right for me. I'm not saying that nailing a perfect UI is easy--just something Reason Studios has never done before. If the bad design culture continues in v12 I will never be upgrading from 10.

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Loque
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Post 16 Jun 2020

kuhliloach wrote:
16 Jun 2020
Let's just call it what it is: a bad user interface. And its not just the awkward SSL in the middle of everything--the entire design philosophy with Reason just isn't right for me. I'm not saying that nailing a perfect UI is easy--just something Reason Studios has never done before. If the bad design culture continues in v12 I will never be upgrading from 10.
Good that you have enough choices of DAWs today...

I always saw and still see Live as the only alternative to Reason for me, but i hated its mixer.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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littlejam
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Post 16 Jun 2020

hello,

i love the 3 screen design of reason
i have 4 monitors on my laptop (including the laptop screen)
one screen for each: mixer / rack / sequencer
and the 4th is for vst pinning / audio interface program

i've used reason since 2.5
i had to learn how to cable up my old songs when the ssl arrived
i love the ssl mixer
users can still use 14:2 mixers if they like

if i only have one monitor, i separate all three windows and then resize them each
a bit differently so i can just click on them as needed: problem solved

i am still on reason 10 / windows 7

have a blessed day,

j
littlejamaicastudios
i7 2.8ghz / 24GB ddr3 / Quadro 4000 x 2 / ProFire 610
reason 10 / reaper / acidpro /akai mpk mini / korg padkontrol / axiom 25 / radium 49
'i get by with a lot of help from my friends'

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kuhliloach
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Post 16 Jun 2020

Loque wrote:
16 Jun 2020
kuhliloach wrote:
16 Jun 2020
Let's just call it what it is: a bad user interface. And its not just the awkward SSL in the middle of everything--the entire design philosophy with Reason just isn't right for me. I'm not saying that nailing a perfect UI is easy--just something Reason Studios has never done before. If the bad design culture continues in v12 I will never be upgrading from 10.
Good that you have enough choices of DAWs today...

I always saw and still see Live as the only alternative to Reason for me, but i hated its mixer.
The DAW I rate highest considering all categories is Logic / GarageBand.
Ableton is clearly the premier DAW in existence, but honestly not the easiest to learn. Learning in progress.
And Reason 10 is a beast for all those who understand it. My best plug-ins are Rack Extensions and I learned mixing on Reason's SSL. Now let's hide it somewhere.

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Ninjadog
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Post 16 Jun 2020

kuhliloach wrote:
16 Jun 2020
IMO by default there should be no enormous SSL in Reason. That was a design mistake. It's like when your friend gives you a ping pong table as a gift. It has to go somewhere, so why not the kitchen? So the UI becomes both cluttered and confusing when new users are trying to figure out not just how to understand channel strips, but why mix channels appear in the rack.
Well you can keep it in the kitchen or build a new addition to your house and call it a rec room, aka get another monitor.

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Ninjadog
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Post 17 Jun 2020

QVprod wrote:
16 Jun 2020
kuhliloach wrote:
16 Jun 2020
IMO by default there should be no enormous SSL in Reason. That was a design mistake. It's like when your friend gives you a ping pong table as a gift. It has to go somewhere, so why not the kitchen? So the UI becomes both cluttered and confusing when new users are trying to figure out not just how to understand channel strips, but why mix channels appear in the rack.
I think it’s only confusing to old users because it’s unfamiliar. It’s pretty straightforward for a new user since they’re a no manual routing involved. Drag an instrument into the rack and it’s all set up. A lot of people found old Reason confusing because they didn’t understand how a mixer and inputs and output cables worked and no other DAW requires you to have that knowledge. A new user will never have to worry about loading an instrument and it not making sound, which was a pretty easy mistake to make pre-SSL mixer.
To be fair there never really had to be any manual routing in any version of Reason. If you created a mixer it got auto routed to the HI, the first four FX would get routed to the sends. Make an instrument and it auto routes to the mixer, make an effect with the instrument highlighted it auto routes from the instrument to the mixer. Not really true that other DAWs don't require that knowledge, if you wanted to for example have an instrument play on channel 3 instead of 2 you would still do something like right click and select the proper channel through a menu or something similar. Reason is just way more intuitive for people who played in bands, or had DJ setups or set up their parents VCR cause they have probably routed cables to the proper I/Os at some point.

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Ninjadog
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Post 17 Jun 2020

kuhliloach wrote:
16 Jun 2020
Loque wrote:
16 Jun 2020

Good that you have enough choices of DAWs today...

I always saw and still see Live as the only alternative to Reason for me, but i hated its mixer.
The DAW I rate highest considering all categories is Logic / GarageBand.
Ableton is clearly the premier DAW in existence, but honestly not the easiest to learn. Learning in progress.
And Reason 10 is a beast for all those who understand it. My best plug-ins are Rack Extensions and I learned mixing on Reason's SSL. Now let's hide it somewhere.
Any DAW is a beast for those who learn it. Reason was all about workarounds in the early days, but also somehow attracted a lot of people who got it for something it wasn't and demanded it to be more. Hell even before Record came out someone figured out a way to hack the ReBirth input machine to get audio into Reason.
When I bought Reason in 2002 a basically went to a shop and it was between Live and Reason, the sales guy was raving about Live and even had it installed on a computer to demo, but it was the back of the box of Reason that got me because there was a picture of the back of the rack with wires you could route. I tried Live later on and I'm so glad I went with Reason because it was just so much more intuitive. I tried other DAWs as well and nothing is better than the rack. I really hate how most DAWs have a floating window per synth or drum machine and spreadsheet like ways to connect them. I'll take my virtual wires anyday.

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Benedict
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Post 17 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
16 Jun 2020
Conversely, my problem with other DAWs is the DON'T take a lot of UI real estate! Meaning, they don't show details until you ask, and only one channel at a time. I'm an old school large format console guy, and I want to be able to scan across the mixer and see lots of overall information at once.
I agree. I looked at the mixers recently in Reaper, Bitwig & Mixbus and immediately felt, like while they may be prettier, they have less info overall.

While I have you Selig and we are talkin' SSLisms: the inbuilt (and now Rackable) Channel Dynamics Compressor.

How does it really work? I find myself at sea with it as it is not exactly standard in behavior.
I get the whole Thresh, Ratio, Release, pre-set Attack and RMS/Peak thing ok.

What I don't understand is what that meter is doing as it seems to show nothing in RMS mode until it is hammering the signal - or maybe I just run things too quietly like your -12db thing. Then, that meter seems to work as a level meter instead of a reduction meter.

Does it have some sort of gain compensation? Inside the SSL, I feel like the overall level goes up if I switch it in (but not in the RE). I am not big on auto gain comp most of the time.

Collectively that leaves me feeling I don't get the device. Maybe it is just not the thing for me or maybe I just am missing how to get it to do its (apparently) magical thang.

Thanks

:-)

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adfielding
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Post 17 Jun 2020

Ninjadog wrote:
14 Jun 2020
It's been a long while since fired up Reason, I was very active with it from 1.0 and upgraded with each new version till 3.0. Did not feel a need to upgrade till around 7.0. The jump from 3 to 7 just wrecked my workflow as everything was different, plus the laptop I had back in 2010 was pretty crappy and couldn't handle too much. Long story short I built a new computer recently and I threw Reason 7 on to get back into producing. I'm sure it's even a stretch for the guys on 11 to remember what 7 was like but among my many questions is is the 14:2 mixer even used anymore? All the instruments just get their little "Mix" mixer thing and from there virtual wires to the Master Section? (As provided by the default new song) Virtual wires??? I kinda cant get over that lol.
Guess I got a bunch of manual reading to do.
Oh wow, this takes me back!

I had the EXACT same feeling when I switched to Record + Reason from Reason 4, I didn't really "get" the SSL Mixer and I didn't want to change my workflow - so I stuck to just using the 14:2 mixer in the rack as I had been doing years prior. For what it's worth, there's not really a whole lot stopping you from doing that. You just need to have a Mix Channel for the 14:2 mixer (unless you want to just hook it right up to the master out manually - nothing stopping you from doing that, either) and hook everything up to the 14:2 as you had been doing before. That way you can pretty much just get rid of the Mix Channel devices if they pop up and ignore the SSL mixer for the most part.

Buuuuut... I'd suggest learning from my previous stubbornness and not doing that. It takes a bit of getting used to if you're in the old mindset of doing it all in the rack, but it is absolutely worth persevering to make the most out of the additional functionality of the SSL mixer. Also, it's a nice way to de-clutter your rack - no more cables floating all over the damn place to the same one or two 14:2s, no more hooking 14:2s up to each other to use more than 14 channels - everything goes to a separate view, and you can flip back and forth between them as and when you need to. I use the filter section on the SSL mixer all the time, and being able to see your entire mix at-a-glance is great. It also gives you the option of using the dynamics/EQ section as and when you need to, but again... nothing stopping you from ignoring them entirely if you don't want to.

The 14:2 still gets use in the rack here in Combinators, but outside of that I don't tend to use it a whole lot any more.

It's a big change to get used to, and it's super interesting to see you going through the exact same thing I went through back with Record 1! My stubbornness lasted right up until about Reason 6 or so when I fully committed to the SSL mixer, and I would never go back now. Good luck, and be prepared for F5/F6/F7 to become your most used keyboard shortcuts :)

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QVprod
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Post 17 Jun 2020

Ninjadog wrote:
17 Jun 2020
QVprod wrote:
16 Jun 2020


I think it’s only confusing to old users because it’s unfamiliar. It’s pretty straightforward for a new user since they’re a no manual routing involved. Drag an instrument into the rack and it’s all set up. A lot of people found old Reason confusing because they didn’t understand how a mixer and inputs and output cables worked and no other DAW requires you to have that knowledge. A new user will never have to worry about loading an instrument and it not making sound, which was a pretty easy mistake to make pre-SSL mixer.
To be fair there never really had to be any manual routing in any version of Reason. If you created a mixer it got auto routed to the HI, the first four FX would get routed to the sends. Make an instrument and it auto routes to the mixer, make an effect with the instrument highlighted it auto routes from the instrument to the mixer. Not really true that other DAWs don't require that knowledge, if you wanted to for example have an instrument play on channel 3 instead of 2 you would still do something like right click and select the proper channel through a menu or something similar. Reason is just way more intuitive for people who played in bands, or had DJ setups or set up their parents VCR cause they have probably routed cables to the proper I/Os at some point.
There was some auto routing. However you generally had to make sure the right thing was selected. When adding a 2nd instrument you had to make sure the mixer was selected so that it routed to the mixer. I remember commonly loading unconnected devices when I started out. I started with version 3 and FL Studio was the first software I used. As far as knowledge needed, what you mention would only apply to hardware instruments or mics on a multichannel audio interface. The very fact that you had to load a mixer to begin with was already a step more than loading a virtual instrument in any other DAW. Thankfully for me, as you say, I was playing in bands and running live sound so it was intuitive to me. For people who don't have that experience, a lot of music makers today, it would not be. Keep in mind the newest generation of adults have never seen a VCR and probably barely know what a DVD is :lol: .

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selig
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Post 17 Jun 2020

I don't think Reason is based on bad design - the things that are awkward about it are more about how they had to expand it to make it work better while not abandoning the existing architecture.
The things I don't like about it are more to do with how things are grouped, or rather, not grouped. I would prefer each instrument was self contained - all data goes into that instrument so you have one container in the rack, one channel in the mixer, and one track in the sequencer for everything related to that instrument. If the instrument has multiple outputs like a drum machine, then they are folded into the one channel (which becomes a bus channel), grouped in the sequencer, and inside the container in the rack. That way all automation, MIDI, and audio is in the same place. If you freeze a MIDI track, the audio is right there in the same track/channel/device. Same for the master section and for a new mastering section - all devices in one place, "freezing" (bouncing) to audio leaves the audio in the same track/channel for easy organization.
Lots of ways to build on this simpler organizational approach, which even while simpler is also more powerful and logical IMO.

Otherwise, Reason has a decent design philosophy which I prefer to Logic etc because you have such power and flexibility hidden just below the surface. If you set up Reason to show the Rack/Sequencer, there's really no reason to every display the mixer for most purpose. Auto-routing and shift-drag mean you hardly ever have to flip the rack. No, it's not perfect (see above), but I can get tons of work done quickly, and have fun doing it!

Disclaimer: coming from hardware and decades of SSL indoctrination I am the perfect target audience for the SSL mixer in Reason, so take my comments with a large grain of salt as always!
Selig Audio, LLC

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Ninjadog
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Post 17 Jun 2020

adfielding wrote:
17 Jun 2020
Ninjadog wrote:
14 Jun 2020
It's been a long while since fired up Reason, I was very active with it from 1.0 and upgraded with each new version till 3.0. Did not feel a need to upgrade till around 7.0. The jump from 3 to 7 just wrecked my workflow as everything was different, plus the laptop I had back in 2010 was pretty crappy and couldn't handle too much. Long story short I built a new computer recently and I threw Reason 7 on to get back into producing. I'm sure it's even a stretch for the guys on 11 to remember what 7 was like but among my many questions is is the 14:2 mixer even used anymore? All the instruments just get their little "Mix" mixer thing and from there virtual wires to the Master Section? (As provided by the default new song) Virtual wires??? I kinda cant get over that lol.
Guess I got a bunch of manual reading to do.
Oh wow, this takes me back!

I had the EXACT same feeling when I switched to Record + Reason from Reason 4, I didn't really "get" the SSL Mixer and I didn't want to change my workflow - so I stuck to just using the 14:2 mixer in the rack as I had been doing years prior. For what it's worth, there's not really a whole lot stopping you from doing that. You just need to have a Mix Channel for the 14:2 mixer (unless you want to just hook it right up to the master out manually - nothing stopping you from doing that, either) and hook everything up to the 14:2 as you had been doing before. That way you can pretty much just get rid of the Mix Channel devices if they pop up and ignore the SSL mixer for the most part.

Buuuuut... I'd suggest learning from my previous stubbornness and not doing that. It takes a bit of getting used to if you're in the old mindset of doing it all in the rack, but it is absolutely worth persevering to make the most out of the additional functionality of the SSL mixer. Also, it's a nice way to de-clutter your rack - no more cables floating all over the damn place to the same one or two 14:2s, no more hooking 14:2s up to each other to use more than 14 channels - everything goes to a separate view, and you can flip back and forth between them as and when you need to. I use the filter section on the SSL mixer all the time, and being able to see your entire mix at-a-glance is great. It also gives you the option of using the dynamics/EQ section as and when you need to, but again... nothing stopping you from ignoring them entirely if you don't want to.

The 14:2 still gets use in the rack here in Combinators, but outside of that I don't tend to use it a whole lot any more.

It's a big change to get used to, and it's super interesting to see you going through the exact same thing I went through back with Record 1! My stubbornness lasted right up until about Reason 6 or so when I fully committed to the SSL mixer, and I would never go back now. Good luck, and be prepared for F5/F6/F7 to become your most used keyboard shortcuts :)
Ha that's too funny that you struggled with that too. Now that I know about the F keys and got my second monitor hooked up I'm good to go. I've taken such a long break from producing that my work flow is more like a small trickle, won't be too difficult to make adjustments. I'm sure when it comes time to mixing ill appreciate it in the long run.

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adfielding
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Post 18 Jun 2020

Ninjadog wrote:
17 Jun 2020
Ha that's too funny that you struggled with that too. Now that I know about the F keys and got my second monitor hooked up I'm good to go. I've taken such a long break from producing that my work flow is more like a small trickle, won't be too difficult to make adjustments. I'm sure when it comes time to mixing ill appreciate it in the long run.
Oh damn, I've only just joined the dual-monitor club myself - total game changer for me, I always keep the mixer on my right monitor and the sequencer/rack on the left. I hope you have lots of fun with it :)

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guitfnky
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Post 18 Jun 2020

I upgraded from dual monitors to a giant 40-ish inch 4k TV instead. waaaay more real estate, but I do sometimes miss the cleaner feel of a dual monitor setup where one monitor was always for the rack, and the other was always for the mixer or sequencer. overall though, it’s a huge step up to be able to see that much more information at once.

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SebAudio
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Joined: 08 Mar 2015

Post 27 Jun 2020

At 1st I thought SSL was overkill for someone who use Reason as an « electronic studio » / glorious (software) workstation. It went for me as opposed to Reason simplicity and focus on the rack. I’m not sure I like it today. Since now I use Live, I think I’m going to find RRP with Live kind of like Reason pre version 6 but with all the new synths, players and REs ! I think RS offers everybody a slice of the Reason he likes, and that’s great !

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