3D-rack: won't happen in any forseeable future

[bxbrkrz]

^^ A Reasonable Question ^^

[kinkujin]

What I don’t understand about the 3D approach is why the gui wasn’t scalable. Surely that would have been one of the main benefits of using 3D.

This is the one benefit I was figuring it was all about. Hmmm.

[buddard]

What I don’t understand about the 3D approach is why the gui wasn’t scalable. Surely that would have been one of the main benefits of using 3D.

The 3D GUIs have very high resolution, so they would definitely be scalable.
Same with the more recent 2D GUI pipeline, the native resolution is 5x higher than the current Reason Rack.
Both these GUI types are currently rendered to the relatively low resolution format we're seeing in Reason right now, but once some kind of hi res support is added to Reason, Reason Studios can just rebuild all REs at the higher resolution.

[Rackman]

Hey at least we still have being able to run RE's out of our internet enabled fridges and toasters to look forward to, right?

You forgot Reason Compact.

[fieldframe]

The reason the 3D pipeline never caught on was the developer experience, especially the (inaccurately-named) Rack Extension Designer. RED was not a design tool, and unfortunately it was barely anything else, either. Scenegraphs were a fiddly, overcomplicated way to define a 3D layout. It was too hard to tell what you were doing wrong, and too easy to do things wrong in the first place.

It’s a shame, because it could have worked if either scenegraph had been a more intuitive format to work in, or if RED had been designed beyond the proof-of-concept stage. The 3D pipeline was a solid idea, just executed poorly.

[selig]

The reason the 3D pipeline never caught on was the developer experience, especially the (inaccurately-named) Rack Extension Designer. RED was not a design tool, and unfortunately it was barely anything else, either. Scenegraphs were a fiddly, overcomplicated way to define a 3D layout. It was too hard to tell what you were doing wrong, and too easy to do things wrong in the first place.

It’s a shame, because it could have worked if either scenegraph had been a more intuitive format to work in, or if RED had been designed beyond the proof-of-concept stage. The 3D pipeline was a solid idea, just executed poorly.

I find the 2D pipeline "too hard to tell what I'm doing". The 3D made much more sense because you could group things by scene graph very logically. Once I figured that out, it was clear sailing - I could look at the scene graphs and know exactly what was going on. Neither one is WYSIWYG, which is a sad state IMO.
I'm just so much more of a visual information guy - that's why I use tools like SourceTree instead of Terminal, or used a piano roll over a note list/tracker approach, and why I build in Reaktor for all my prototyping!

[guitfnky]

I didn’t even realize you could make REs without using 3D assets. I love good skeuomorphic GUIs, but I think it would be really neat to see more modern flat-looking GUIs in the rack as well. stuff that looks like Oeksound’s Soothe or Klevgrand’s VSTs would look really sharp in the rack, I think.

[selig]

I didn’t even realize you could make REs without using 3D assets. I love good skeuomorphic GUIs, but I think it would be really neat to see more modern flat-looking GUIs in the rack as well. stuff that looks like Oeksound’s Soothe or Klevgrand’s VSTs would look really sharp in the rack, I think.

You can make a flat UI with 3D, and make a totally skeuomorphic UI with 2D - an often misunderstood distinction…
It's more about the design PROCESS than the design RESULTS.
[IMO "Flat" is just another trend like skeuomorphic - soon the flat look will be dated and something "new" will come around.]

[guitfnky]

I didn’t even realize you could make REs without using 3D assets. I love good skeuomorphic GUIs, but I think it would be really neat to see more modern flat-looking GUIs in the rack as well. stuff that looks like Oeksound’s Soothe or Klevgrand’s VSTs would look really sharp in the rack, I think.

You can make a flat UI with 3D, and make a totally skeuomorphic UI with 2D - an often misunderstood distinction…
It's more about the design PROCESS than the design RESULTS.

understood—it’s just that the medium will often influence the end result. I’m guessing making a 2D-looking interface using 3D tools probably takes more effort to get looking right than one might think (admittedly, pure speculation—I have no idea what might be involved, really). and of course you can make something look 3D using 2D tools—that’s been a thing since the earliest game consoles, at least, and probably earlier.

[EnochLight]

I'm just so much more of a visual information guy

Slightly off topic: I am too! This is why I argued for having spectral display graphs and other visual effects in Reason long before the new SSL spectral display eq appeared.

[QVprod]

I don't think a 3D rack was ever the idea. just scalable graphics for whenever they make graphics scalable.

They're quitters that's all they do!

Recycle
Balance
Record
Rewire
Allihoopla

Re IS next in years to come you heard it here first!

Recycle - Still exists, most features integrated into Reason. Not updated, but the average user probably doesn't even need it. Just about every DAW can time stretch now.

Balance - The one and only thing they quit. It was a simple 2 in 2 out interface though, very much overhyped for what it was.

Record - Companion app integrated into Reason.

Rewire - Replaced with something arguably better: Reason Rack Plugin

Allihoopla - Not so much a 'quit' but a fail.

The fact that their flagship product, Reason, has lasted 20yrs actually shows a pretty positive track record. The only way REs go is if Reason does.

[selig]

I'm just so much more of a visual information guy

Slightly off topic: I am too! This is why I argued for having spectral display graphs and other visual effects in Reason long before the new SSL spectral display eq appeared.

Probably totally off topic, at least from my perspective since when designing an interface there is an inherent visual element - but when making music, there is none…
Designing a software product that is similar to a hardware product is no different - even if I was building a hardware version I'd want visual tools.
Back ON topic, having a mixer and cables to connect in software is more what I'm talking, as opposed to a list of "aux busses" that you select and keep track of in your mind (Pro Tools, etc). Even a modulation matrix is less visual to me than cables like with Complex-1.

Visual tools like a spectral display is more of an aid - not so much a way of making music but a way of analyzing the music you've made (hopefully the distinction is clear). In one case you choose which method to use (visual or list based), in another you have the OPTION to use or NOT USE a visual aid - maybe I should say: one is essential, the other is optional?

[selig]

I don't think a 3D rack was ever the idea. just scalable graphics for whenever they make graphics scalable.

From everything I heard (and I COULD be mis-charactiorizing what I heard), it was the "loose" idea - they were not very specific about how you would move around in the 3D world, meaning would you simply zoom in/out or be able to view from any perspective. The idea was first to build it, later to decide how it would be applied in practice. I guess the reasoning at the time was that you have to decide ahead of time what possible features would be useful and plan your SDK around providing the tools for those ideas - it would be easy to keep a 3D device in the 2D world, but impossible (mostly) to take a 2D device into a 3D world, so as I understood it a form of "future proofing".
Unfortunately it was such a departure for those already building plugins that it apparently put many established folks off. But for new guys such as myself, who had been building in 3D for many years already, it was pretty cool!

[TerryHiggins]

We would have had a lot more third party racks if they didn’t use that process.

Agreed! this process was the key to avoid third party racks

[Boombastix]

Recycle - Still exists, most features integrated into Reason. Not updated, but the average user probably doesn't even need it. Just about every DAW can time stretch now.

Balance - The one and only thing they quit. It was a simple 2 in 2 out interface though, very much overhyped for what it was.

Record - Companion app integrated into Reason.

Rewire - Replaced with something arguably better: Reason Rack Plugin

Allihoopla - Not so much a 'quit' but a fail.

The fact that their flagship product, Reason, has lasted 20yrs actually shows a pretty positive track record. The only way REs go is if Reason does.

Europa VST and VST development seems to have stopped?
Europa web synth?
Elk os with RE in hardware form?

People are screaming about lack of basic features - maybe they finally realized that they had lost focus?

[Steedus]

I don’t care about 3D but please let high res still be on the cards... holy shit.

[buddard]

Europa VST and VST development seems to have stopped?

Maybe because you can now buy Reason Intro for 79€, which includes the VST3/AU/AAX Rack plugin that runs Europa + 10 more instruments and a bunch of other devices?

[QVprod]

I don't think a 3D rack was ever the idea. just scalable graphics for whenever they make graphics scalable.

From everything I heard (and I COULD be mis-charactiorizing what I heard), it was the "loose" idea - they were not very specific about how you would move around in the 3D world, meaning would you simply zoom in/out or be able to view from any perspective. The idea was first to build it, later to decide how it would be applied in practice. I guess the reasoning at the time was that you have to decide ahead of time what possible features would be useful and plan your SDK around providing the tools for those ideas - it would be easy to keep a 3D device in the 2D world, but impossible (mostly) to take a 2D device into a 3D world, so as I understood it a form of "future proofing".
Unfortunately it was such a departure for those already building plugins that it apparently put many established folks off. But for new guys such as myself, who had been building in 3D for many years already, it was pretty cool!

Got it. I think people were expecting IMAX or virtual reality level 3D. That's more so what I'm referring to. Otherwise I'm not sure there's anything for us users to be disappointed by.

[pongasoft]

I think it was the right move to remove 3D support entirely. The 3D workflow has a massive learning curve for small developers. Trying to do simple things is a huge nightmare when you are not familiar with the concepts. And even if you are, the specific RE 3D workflow is not a "standard" one and also needs to be learned. I built my very first RE (A/B switch) with the 3D workflow because that is all there was at the time. Learning the RE concepts + 3D workflow was a daunting task for such a simple device where clearly 3D for this particular device brings nothing of value. Especially since 4 years later, it is still rendered in 2D at a very low resolution (compare to Logic devices...).

After they released the 2D workflow to alleviate this burden, they also added features to the 2D workflow only because they were much easier to implement in this workflow (at first). Porting them to 3D is lot of work and effort. So they never did. I think they just had to decide which path to take... I assume they probably also have internal numbers showing the usage of the 3D vs 2D workflows.

Like somebody said, it was really future looking especially for its time, but you got to prioritize. And for a company who really struggles with resources (they are not Apple...), it is definitely the right choice. Note that if the resources problem were to go away, I just don't see why they could not release a GUI 3D v2.0 workflow at some point in the future.

As far as I am concerned, I would rather Reason Studios to spend their cycle on Hi Resolution than 3D...

[QVprod]

Recycle - Still exists, most features integrated into Reason. Not updated, but the average user probably doesn't even need it. Just about every DAW can time stretch now.

Balance - The one and only thing they quit. It was a simple 2 in 2 out interface though, very much overhyped for what it was.

Record - Companion app integrated into Reason.

Rewire - Replaced with something arguably better: Reason Rack Plugin

Allihoopla - Not so much a 'quit' but a fail.

The fact that their flagship product, Reason, has lasted 20yrs actually shows a pretty positive track record. The only way REs go is if Reason does.

Europa VST and VST development seems to have stopped?
Europa web synth?
Elk os with RE in hardware form?

People are screaming about lack of basic features - maybe they finally realized that they had lost focus?

The entire Reason rack is now a vst. Web synth was essentially a Europa free trial. Since t's no longer a separate plugin I suppose there's no more need for it. Elk os RE hardware was never an official product announcement. Just a prototype. For all we know, they could still be working on it.

RS has always worked at their own pace which seems a bit little slower than many like, hence RE. That allowed new devices without having to wait 2-3 years for a new Reason version. I don't think they ever lost focus, just doing their own thing per usual.

[bxbrkrz]

They could also fake 3D the racks with some kind of a bump and displacement maps solution if the 24/7 Hololens World is a thing one day. It would be funny if the oldest modules would have a higher ultra definition than the newest REs

Doesn't matter. It's dead.

[EnochLight]

I don’t care about 3D but please let high res still be on the cards... holy shit.

Rack Extension assets for high res are already in place, just have to wait for them to figure out the old native devices and such. It will happen, for sure - it's just a matter of time. 4K and higher displays aren't going away anytime soon, and display resolution/dpi will only continue to go up.

[fieldframe]

I don't think a 3D rack was ever the idea. just scalable graphics for whenever they make graphics scalable.

From everything I heard (and I COULD be mis-charactiorizing what I heard), it was the "loose" idea - they were not very specific about how you would move around in the 3D world, meaning would you simply zoom in/out or be able to view from any perspective. The idea was first to build it, later to decide how it would be applied in practice. I guess the reasoning at the time was that you have to decide ahead of time what possible features would be useful and plan your SDK around providing the tools for those ideas - it would be easy to keep a 3D device in the 2D world, but impossible (mostly) to take a 2D device into a 3D world, so as I understood it a form of "future proofing".
Unfortunately it was such a departure for those already building plugins that it apparently put many established folks off. But for new guys such as myself, who had been building in 3D for many years already, it was pretty cool!

My expectation would have been that the idea of “moving around in 3D” would be a mischaracterization of what Reason Studios intended to accomplish with the 3D pipeline. While I’m sure part of the motivation was, as you say, to keep their options open, the most obvious application of having a 3D model of each rack device would have been to simply render the same orthographic projection as the existing rack, but in real-time.

People sometimes talk of a “vector rack,” and this would have been the closest thing to it. Instead of rendering filmstrips, controls would be made up of polygons with real-time shading and shadowing, rendered like a game engine. You’d get smooth zooming and high resolution (limited only by textures and mesh resolution), but there wouldn’t be any need for 3D navigation because you’d be locked to the same non-perspective front view that you get with 2D assets.

The funny thing is, I think what we’ll actually see when Reason’s UI goes hardware-accelerated and hiDPI is not that far off from this. It’ll still be using GPU acceleration, but to render high-res filmstrips instead of 3D models of knobs and faders. The trade-off likely requires more RAM but less CPU, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this was actually a big factor in going all-in on the 2D pipeline instead of improving the 3D one.

[HyperDiamondz]

While i think of it...a 3D model has lots of advantages...VR, 3D printing, maybe AR...But who knows, maybe we will see different approaches in the future like a direct brain interface, so i finally can easily synthesize the sounds in my head.

VR Reason!
customisable VR studio with customisable VR rack where you could twiddle actual real fake knobs.
anyone who has expereiced VR will know that this WILL be the future of DAWs
in fact, why is this not a thing already? (maybe it is, ive never actually looked)

I suppose there is no hope props / reason studios ever doing it... i mean we've been waiting 20 years for scaleable rack and they cant even manage that.

[RoryM0]

...... just have to wait for them to figure out the old native devices and such. It will happen, for sure - it's just a matter of time.....

How do you think they will actually handle this though? I had imagined that they are going to / have been working on transferring all native devices over the the RE SDK? Is this likely? Is there anything that the native devices do that isn't yet covered by the current SDK?