Routing among components in channel strips and master section strip?

[BadMusic]

Sent to customer Apr-18, but still no reply, so hello.

In the manual, I cannot find it fully explained how the signal is routed among the various components of a channel strip? I do see the Signal Path Section, but that leaves unspecified at what point the signal splits off to the send effects, and at what point the send effects are returned? Is the signal sent to the send fx before the EQ and compressor or after them?

Same question for the master section strip. I see how to control the ordering between the inserts and the master compressor, but where are the sends taken? Are the send taken before the inserts or after them? Are the sends taken before the master compressor or after it? Are the returns before the inserts or after them?

[jam-s]

[selig]

Sorry to say that video is not 100% accurate, and attempts by multiple forum member to get it corrected were not successful.

I created a more accurate version in response, and yes this IS the simplified version…


To answer your specific questions, sends are tapped after all channel processing, either pre or post fader, and returned to the Mix Bus with no further processing.

As for the master section there are no sends "taken" from any point in the master, because there are no sends in the master section. The FX returns are summed with the mixer channels BEFORE they enter the master section, thus all inserts and the Master Compressor come AFTER all FX returns.

Make sense?

[Tiny Montgomery]

Sorry to say that video is not 100% accurate, and attempts by multiple forum member to get it corrected were not successful.

I created a more accurate version in response, and yes this IS the simplified version…


To answer your specific questions, sends are tapped after all channel processing, either pre or post fader, and returned to the Mix Bus with no further processing.

As for the master section there are no sends "taken" from any point in the master, because there are no sends in the master section. The FX returns are summed with the mixer channels BEFORE they enter the master section, thus all inserts and the Master Compressor come AFTER all FX returns.

Make sense?

Hi Selig

When picking up Reason again I searched around for help on using the mixer and watched a couple of that guy's videos. There is one in which he recommends using the gain knob at the top of the mixer for level and trying to keep the channel strips at unity when mixing. The Reason Studios gain staging video on the same topic doesn't contradict this exactly but does not even mention the gain knob as far as I remember and seems far more laissez faire about levels in general.

IS the consensus here that these videos are not accurate (they are certainly a bit old now)? Must admit it has been troubling me a bit. I got your gain plugin anyway and keep the mix peaking around -6. Ive been trying to gain stage from the devices themselves as much as possible and then gain knob at top of strip. I never change the main output volume on mixer if possible and have been trying not to move the channel strips too much, but mainly due to that guys video!

Pretty sure you answer variations on this question a lot, but was interested in your view Apologies if you're fed up answering on this topic!!

[BadMusic]

Thanks everyone. I am reading the various responses.

[Arjanders]

What I don't understand..

When "Insert is pre EQ" and having an EQ as insert it behaves as expected; Changing the insert EQ will reflect on the mixer EQ. And changing the mixer EQ wont reflect on the insert EQ.

But in the default state, "Insert after EQ" Changing the insert EQ will also reflect on the mixer EQ.

[orthodox]

What I don't understand..

When "Insert is pre EQ" and having an EQ as insert it behaves as expected; Changing the insert EQ will reflect on the mixer EQ. And changing the mixer EQ wont reflect on the insert EQ.

But in the default state, "Insert after EQ" Changing the insert EQ will also reflect on the mixer EQ.

I guess, by "will also reflect on the mixer EQ" you mean it will reflect on the Mix Channel Spectrum Analyzer, which is not the same as the EQ. It probably measures pre-fader signal on the channel.

Anyways, if we talk only EQs, there is actually no difference which EQ comes first in a chain. EQs (for the most part) are linear transformations and thus are subject to the commutative law.

[Arjanders]

I guess, by "will also reflect on the mixer EQ" you mean it will reflect on the Mix Channel Spectrum Analyzer, which is not the same as the EQ. It probably measures pre-fader signal on the channel.

Thanks, that was my confusion indeed. Learned something new again!

[JerrelTheKing]

So I have a related issue with routing.. by the way thanks @selig I needed that diagram too since I had been going back to those same videos on Youtube. But anyway I have the slate VMS and wanted to be able to record into reason with it as well as a low cut and compression. The only place to add the slate rack is as an insert but when I record its not actually capturing the plugin but its treating it as an effect and I'm having to bounce it down.. Is there something I'm doing wrong or is that just the only way it will work in Reason?

[buddard]

So I have a related issue with routing.. by the way thanks @selig I needed that diagram too since I had been going back to those same videos on Youtube. But anyway I have the slate VMS and wanted to be able to record into reason with it as well as a low cut and compression. The only place to add the slate rack is as an insert but when I record its not actually capturing the plugin but its treating it as an effect and I'm having to bounce it down.. Is there something I'm doing wrong or is that just the only way it will work in Reason?

That's right, the signal is recorded before going into the channel strip, so you won't record any FX by default.
But as always with Reason there's a workaround!

Create a new Mix channel, we can call it "Input With FX". Connect a cable from the input on the Hardware interface to the input on the Mix channel.
Add the desired effects as inserts on the Mix channel, and you can also use the channel strip compressor and EQ.
With the Mix channel rack device fully expanded, enable the "Rec Source" button in the lower right corner of the device.
Also route this Mix channel to a separate bus channel, which you then mute. This is in order to prevent the input channel to be heard directly (because you will be monitoring it via the your Audio track)

Now, on your Audio track device, you should now be able to choose "Input With FX" as the Audio input.

So everything you do on the "Input With FX" channel in the mixer will be recorded as-is, and everything you do on the Audio channel itself will be applied during playback.

[JerrelTheKing]

So I have a related issue with routing.. by the way thanks @selig I needed that diagram too since I had been going back to those same videos on Youtube. But anyway I have the slate VMS and wanted to be able to record into reason with it as well as a low cut and compression. The only place to add the slate rack is as an insert but when I record its not actually capturing the plugin but its treating it as an effect and I'm having to bounce it down.. Is there something I'm doing wrong or is that just the only way it will work in Reason?

That's right, the signal is recorded before going into the channel strip, so you won't record any FX by default.
But as always with Reason there's a workaround!

Create a new Mix channel, we can call it "Input With FX". Connect a cable from the input on the Hardware interface to the input on the Mix channel.
Add the desired effects as inserts on the Mix channel, and you can also use the channel strip compressor and EQ.
With the Mix channel rack device fully expanded, enable the "Rec Source" button in the lower right corner of the device.
Also route this Mix channel to a separate bus channel, which you then mute. This is in order to prevent the input channel to be heard directly (because you will be monitoring it via the your Audio track)

Now, on your Audio track device, you should now be able to choose "Input With FX" as the Audio input.

So everything you do on the "Input With FX" channel in the mixer will be recorded as-is, and everything you do on the Audio channel itself will be applied during playback.

Bro!!! Thank you so much... now I can even record with auto tune printing as well

[selig]

Hi Selig

When picking up Reason again I searched around for help on using the mixer and watched a couple of that guy's videos. There is one in which he recommends using the gain knob at the top of the mixer for level and trying to keep the channel strips at unity when mixing. The Reason Studios gain staging video on the same topic doesn't contradict this exactly but does not even mention the gain knob as far as I remember and seems far more laissez faire about levels in general.

IS the consensus here that these videos are not accurate (they are certainly a bit old now)? Must admit it has been troubling me a bit. I got your gain plugin anyway and keep the mix peaking around -6. Ive been trying to gain stage from the devices themselves as much as possible and then gain knob at top of strip. I never change the main output volume on mixer if possible and have been trying not to move the channel strips too much, but mainly due to that guys video!

Pretty sure you answer variations on this question a lot, but was interested in your view Apologies if you're fed up answering on this topic!!

Channel Input Gain:
This wasn't even used that much on the hardware SSL (I learned to mix on SSL consoles starting in 1984). In early version of the mix software it wasn't easy to do a quick level change across the entire song without playing the song and then FF to the end. To bump up the level instead we would grab the input gain, but this wasn't without its side effects, mainly that you affect the dynamics section when you do this!
Later versions of the mix software allows you to do things like add 2 dB to any channel, especially helpful for creating alternate mix versions for submission to labels. So the input gain knob hardly ever got used!

In Reason software if you set your levels to the desired level from the start (at the instrument or when you record the audio track) there's no reason to need to adjust input gain coming into the mixer since it's already exactly where you want it. This is what I advocate, as well as making sure to compensate for any changes made when adding EQ/compression etc. Meaning, if you add EQ and the level drops 6 dB, add 6 dB so that if you bypass (or later remove) that EQ you don't get a level jump!

As for the video, remember I said it's not 100% accurate. There's plenty of useful information, but sadly it's mixed in with the less useful information! I, and many others, reached out when this (and other material) was released and suggested changes to increase accuracy, but not all suggestions were used. While there's no one "correct" way to do things in the audio field, there are some things that will make your life easier and some that make it unnecessary more difficult than it could be. Both can get you great results in the end, but the shorter path is always more desirable IMO.

If you're interested in MY take on setting levels in Reason, I made this (slightly cheesy) video to explain.

[Tiny Montgomery]

Selig

Very kind of you to give such a detailed answer to a slightly off topic question

Rest assured I already watched your videos and you sold me Gain, think it was the first RE i paid for!

Pretty much follow your advice already on level setting at source too, yes. Compared to where I was end of last year just coming back to Reason and where I am now - well lets just say Im having a heck of a lot of fun. And lurking here beforehand Ive really enjoyed your content on this website, thank you.

[JerrelTheKing]

That's right, the signal is recorded before going into the channel strip, so you won't record any FX by default.
But as always with Reason there's a workaround!

Create a new Mix channel, we can call it "Input With FX". Connect a cable from the input on the Hardware interface to the input on the Mix channel.
Add the desired effects as inserts on the Mix channel, and you can also use the channel strip compressor and EQ.
With the Mix channel rack device fully expanded, enable the "Rec Source" button in the lower right corner of the device.
Also route this Mix channel to a separate bus channel, which you then mute. This is in order to prevent the input channel to be heard directly (because you will be monitoring it via the your Audio track)

Now, on your Audio track device, you should now be able to choose "Input With FX" as the Audio input.

So everything you do on the "Input With FX" channel in the mixer will be recorded as-is, and everything you do on the Audio channel itself will be applied during playback.

Bro!!! Thank you so much... now I can even record with auto tune printing as well

This didnt work.. Ive finally gotten around to recording after doing writing and pre production for a few months and when I record on Audio Track its getting no information at all..

[deeplink]

What I don't understand..

When "Insert is pre EQ" and having an EQ as insert it behaves as expected; Changing the insert EQ will reflect on the mixer EQ. And changing the mixer EQ wont reflect on the insert EQ.

But in the default state, "Insert after EQ" Changing the insert EQ will also reflect on the mixer EQ.

Is anybody able to answer this? Specifically where does the spectrum analyzer tap out from? Certainly post gain and prefader. But where exactly?

[selig]

Is anybody able to answer this? Specifically where does the spectrum analyzer tap out from? Certainly post gain and prefader. But where exactly?

The spectrum analyzer takes it's signal right before the Mute button. In my signal flow chart posted previously it's on the second line right after the Insert (but would not move if you moved the insert - it would still be the last thing before the mute button).

[deeplink]

Is anybody able to answer this? Specifically where does the spectrum analyzer tap out from? Certainly post gain and prefader. But where exactly?

The spectrum analyzer takes it's signal right before the Mute button. In my signal flow chart posted previously it's on the second line right after the Insert (but would not move if you moved the insert - it would still be the last thing before the mute button).

Thank you Selig

[JerrelTheKing]

Is anybody able to answer this? Specifically where does the spectrum analyzer tap out from? Certainly post gain and prefader. But where exactly?

The spectrum analyzer takes it's signal right before the Mute button. In my signal flow chart posted previously it's on the second line right after the Insert (but would not move if you moved the insert - it would still be the last thing before the mute button).

Selig do you know of a way that I can record vocals and capture effects information on the inital print?

[JerrelTheKing]

I figured it out.. thanks guys