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Proboscis
Posts: 749
Joined: 28 Aug 2019

Post 05 Mar 2020

EnochLight wrote:
26 Feb 2020
Clearly Reason Studios can't be held responsible for correctly implementing RRP as a VST3.
Wait.... what ?

Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !

I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.

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buddard
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Post 05 Mar 2020

Proboscis wrote:
05 Mar 2020
EnochLight wrote:
26 Feb 2020
Clearly Reason Studios can't be held responsible for correctly implementing RRP as a VST3.
Wait.... what ?

Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !

I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.
I think what EnochLight meant to say is that Reason Studios have implemented the RRP VST3 correctly, and that they can't be held responsible for other DAWs not supporting everything in the VST3 spec, like the legacy MIDI CC out event.

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chimp_spanner
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Post 05 Mar 2020

buddard wrote:
05 Mar 2020
Proboscis wrote:
05 Mar 2020


Wait.... what ?

Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !

I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.
I think what EnochLight meant to say is that Reason Studios have implemented the RRP VST3 correctly, and that they can't be held responsible for other DAWs not supporting everything in the VST3 spec, like the legacy MIDI CC out event.
^ Yeah exactly that. RRP meets the VST3 standard. It's the hosts that don't support CC out, that are falling short now. And they've had plenty of time to fix it!

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EnochLight
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Post 05 Mar 2020

buddard wrote:
05 Mar 2020
Proboscis wrote:
05 Mar 2020


Wait.... what ?

Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !

I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.
I think what EnochLight meant to say is that Reason Studios have implemented the RRP VST3 correctly, and that they can't be held responsible for other DAWs not supporting everything in the VST3 spec, like the legacy MIDI CC out event.
^^ Exactly this. ^^ ;)
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dezma
Posts: 222
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Post 05 Mar 2020

danc wrote:
26 Feb 2020
danc wrote:
25 Feb 2020


The VST 3 MIDI CC issue in S1 isn't exclusively a problem with Reason Rack... it's a problem in all VST3's in S1... look here: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 7&t=540109

UPDATE: Which no doubt you have.. as you are posting on that forum. I tried some VST2 wrappers and couldn't get it to work that way either.
I've had two responses back from Presonus now on this subject.

They confirmed that a number of people have raised this problem with them - regarding the Reason Rack plugin.

In their first message they said that Reason Studios would need to contact them and send them the plugin to help resolve the issue.

A second mail arrived from them that confirms that they have now escalated the issue. They've passed the problem onto their QA team to test/confirm and that they will then follow up resolution from there.

Fingers crossed.

Whereas... Reason Studios have not even responded to my support ticket yet - I contacted them a day earlier than Presonus. I know it's not a pissing contest between the 2 companies on who has better support... but receiving NO support isn't acceptable.
I'm under the impression presonus support is actually listening to customers. They fixed an issue I reported within weeks so I'm hopeful this will also get fixed.

What I don't understand is why this is important. I mean, the only synths I know able to route midi input in the matrix is avenger vst and some rob papen synths. Pigments, Dune3, Spire to name a few all don't support this (except the obvious mod wheel). You could be mapping midi CC's for external control but then again you'd need to remember each parameter CC which is not very handy.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to allow VST inside the reason rack of am I missing something here?

If they make it drag and drop I'd be more excited :geek:

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DJMaytag
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Post 05 Mar 2020

Proboscis wrote:
05 Mar 2020
EnochLight wrote:
26 Feb 2020
Clearly Reason Studios can't be held responsible for correctly implementing RRP as a VST3.
Wait.... what ?

Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !

I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.
I gladly came back to Reason and dumped Cubase, the creators of the VST platform, because their own F@<{!ng host won’t implement things with I/O routing that VST’s can do that other DAWs are taking advantage of and making a killing on.

The Silent Way VST suite for connecting to Expert Sleepers hardware is completely unusable in Cubase, because there’s no free routing to all the plugins’ inputs and outputs. Even after upgrading Cubase twice (Artist 8.5 to Pro 8.5 then Pro 9), the supposed new routing capabilities sucked donkey balls and didn’t work.

Thankfully it’s a matter of carefully patching cables on the back of the rack in Reason, and now I don’t have to spend another dime with Steinberg!

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chimp_spanner
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Post 05 Mar 2020

DJMaytag wrote:
05 Mar 2020
Proboscis wrote:
05 Mar 2020


Wait.... what ?

Reason's whole new product offering is RRP as VST !

I would argue that it's entirely their responsibility to ensure all-platform compatibility.
I gladly came back to Reason and dumped Cubase, the creators of the VST platform, because their own F@<{!ng host won’t implement things with I/O routing that VST’s can do that other DAWs are taking advantage of and making a killing on.

The Silent Way VST suite for connecting to Expert Sleepers hardware is completely unusable in Cubase, because there’s no free routing to all the plugins’ inputs and outputs. Even after upgrading Cubase twice (Artist 8.5 to Pro 8.5 then Pro 9), the supposed new routing capabilities sucked donkey balls and didn’t work.

Thankfully it’s a matter of carefully patching cables on the back of the rack in Reason, and now I don’t have to spend another dime with Steinberg!
I'm forever ping-ponging between Reason and Cubase these days. Just got 10.5 last night. Padshop Pro 2 is great, although really that's most of what you're paying for. The DAW updates are actually pretty scant. A new delay, coloured mixer channels (wooo). There's a new EQ comparison feature which I guess is pretty neat.

I'm working on a couple of things with RRP in Cubase atm and it *is* amazing. But, every time I have to deal with automation in Cubase I end up wishing I was back in Reason. But then when I try to do the same project in Reason, I wish I had folders, MIDI note chase and note preview on arrow nudge in the editor. Which - and this is no exaggeration - are pretty much the only THREE features that cause me to open up Cubase atm.

DJMaytag
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Post 05 Mar 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
05 Mar 2020
I'm working on a couple of things with RRP in Cubase atm and it *is* amazing. But, every time I have to deal with automation in Cubase I end up wishing I was back in Reason. But then when I try to do the same project in Reason, I wish I had folders, MIDI note chase and note preview on arrow nudge in the editor. Which - and this is no exaggeration - are pretty much the only THREE features that cause me to open up Cubase atm.
I do miss folders, but the organized folder setup in Cubase was fantastic. I pretty much hate having to spend time sort thru plugins by manufacturer in Reason, though I have finally set up favorites in the browser bar. I just right click to add everything as an ingrained habit of working for over a decade now.

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EnochLight
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Post 05 Mar 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
05 Mar 2020
But then when I try to do the same project in Reason, I wish I had folders, MIDI note chase and note preview on arrow nudge in the editor.
OMFG yes! We need to start a campaign to get Reason Studios to add that! ^^
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Wobbleburger
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Post 05 Mar 2020

As somebody who uses Reason as a standalone DAW, I'm sticking with 10 until something big comes out besides romplers and chrous/flanger effects. This is very useful for Ableton users and it's a cool move by Reason Studios to get sales from a whole new customer base.
I like jungle.

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chimp_spanner
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Post 05 Mar 2020

Wobbleburger wrote:
05 Mar 2020
As somebody who uses Reason as a standalone DAW, I'm sticking with 10 until something big comes out besides romplers and chrous/flanger effects. This is very useful for Ableton users and it's a cool move by Reason Studios to get sales from a whole new customer base.
To be fair, the new effects do a bit more than that. I'll admit I thought it was just a new chorus/flanger when they announced it. The chorus has some great shimmer modes, but also FFT resynthesis and a real time granulariser. And the flanger can do a kind of physical modelling/resonance thing with up to 40 phaser stages, flanging (obviously) and a filter. So it's a good multi-purpose tool where you might normally reach for a lot of different devices. Also has the modulation envelope out of Europa/Grain built in, plus an envelope follower. I use it waaay more than I thought I would.

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fieldframe
Posts: 758
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Post 05 Mar 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
05 Mar 2020
Wobbleburger wrote:
05 Mar 2020
As somebody who uses Reason as a standalone DAW, I'm sticking with 10 until something big comes out besides romplers and chrous/flanger effects. This is very useful for Ableton users and it's a cool move by Reason Studios to get sales from a whole new customer base.
To be fair, the new effects do a bit more than that. I'll admit I thought it was just a new chorus/flanger when they announced it. The chorus has some great shimmer modes, but also FFT resynthesis and a real time granulariser. And the flanger can do a kind of physical modelling/resonance thing with up to 40 phaser stages, flanging (obviously) and a filter. So it's a good multi-purpose tool where you might normally reach for a lot of different devices. Also has the modulation envelope out of Europa/Grain built in, plus an envelope follower. I use it waaay more than I thought I would.
Yeah, I think Sweeper and Quartet were under-hyped. They both hearken back to the days before REs and VSTs, when a new Reason device had to be extremely versatile because that was all you got!
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EnochLight
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Post 05 Mar 2020

fieldframe wrote:
05 Mar 2020
Yeah, I think Sweeper and Quartet were under-hyped. They both hearken back to the days before REs and VSTs, when a new Reason device had to be extremely versatile because that was all you got!
Indeed! Also, because they're so effective, I think them appearing as native Reason devices pissed at least one RE developer off (they who shall remain nameless). Certainly made some popular stuff in the shop obsolete.
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ltbrunt00
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Post 05 Mar 2020

Call me slow just figured out how to use use reason to generate midi in Cubase and it is Glorious.

I have been heavily relying on reason's secret weapon for almost 20 years and now I can use it in my other DAW. Long live the props.
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dezma
Posts: 222
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Post 06 Mar 2020

Concerning midi cc from rack players to VST:
dezma wrote:
05 Mar 2020
What I don't understand is why this is important. I mean, the only synths I know able to route midi input in the matrix is avenger vst and some rob papen synths. Pigments, Dune3, Spire to name a few all don't support this (except the obvious mod wheel). You could be mapping midi CC's for external control but then again you'd need to remember each parameter CC which is not very handy.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to allow VST inside the reason rack of am I missing something here?
Anybody?

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chimp_spanner
Posts: 2416
Joined: 06 Mar 2015

Post 06 Mar 2020

dezma wrote:
06 Mar 2020
Concerning midi cc from rack players to VST:
dezma wrote:
05 Mar 2020
What I don't understand is why this is important. I mean, the only synths I know able to route midi input in the matrix is avenger vst and some rob papen synths. Pigments, Dune3, Spire to name a few all don't support this (except the obvious mod wheel). You could be mapping midi CC's for external control but then again you'd need to remember each parameter CC which is not very handy.

Wouldn't it make much more sense to allow VST inside the reason rack of am I missing something here?
Anybody?
Well what if a synth only has limited (or basic) modulation sources? And you wanted to modulate more parameters than its matrix allows? What if you want to design your own LFO shape using any of the various CV utilities in the shop (or the Envelope out of something like Sweeper or Grain/Europa)? What if you wanted to trigger a modulation envelope with a kick drum to control a parameter on another synth somewhere else in the project? What if you wanted to use the CV programmer lanes in Player or Pattern devices to adjust synth parameters as well as send note data, or send interesting/rhythmical curve shapes to effect devices that don't have pattern sequencers?

For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.

danc
Posts: 445
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Post 06 Mar 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
06 Mar 2020
For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
100% agree - it is ESSENTIAL for me. With the MIDI CC out it will make RRP an essential plugin for modulating my VST's.

As an update - Presonus support were pretty chatty about the issue and understand that the MIDI CC problem from VST3 isn't unique to RRP, but for any VST3. They have passed it onto their QA team to confirm that it's an issue and will rectify if found to be a problem. I await with baited breath (although I'm likely to take a few sneaky breaths along the way.. as it will probably be months before we see a fix).

Also - I did talk to Reason Studios support and they said they'd look at updating their website to make it clear that MIDI CC only works on a few DAWs (not all). Just looked now at https://www.reasonstudios.com/en/reason ... s/midi-out and it hasn't been updated yet. It still says"... control any other plugin or external hardware in your DAW of choice." As we know - that isn't true.
Creating, producing and mastering music in Reason 11 and Studio One 4.5 (WIndows).


dezma
Posts: 222
Joined: 02 Jun 2015

Post 06 Mar 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
06 Mar 2020
dezma wrote:
06 Mar 2020
Concerning midi cc from rack players to VST:



Anybody?
Well what if a synth only has limited (or basic) modulation sources? And you wanted to modulate more parameters than its matrix allows? What if you want to design your own LFO shape using any of the various CV utilities in the shop (or the Envelope out of something like Sweeper or Grain/Europa)? What if you wanted to trigger a modulation envelope with a kick drum to control a parameter on another synth somewhere else in the project? What if you wanted to use the CV programmer lanes in Player or Pattern devices to adjust synth parameters as well as send note data, or send interesting/rhythmical curve shapes to effect devices that don't have pattern sequencers?

For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
Thanks for the info but this part was already clear I'm just wondering how you would do the mapping between midi cc channel and the vst synth since most synths don't have midi cc as a mod source

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chimp_spanner
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Post 06 Mar 2020

dezma wrote:
06 Mar 2020
chimp_spanner wrote:
06 Mar 2020


Well what if a synth only has limited (or basic) modulation sources? And you wanted to modulate more parameters than its matrix allows? What if you want to design your own LFO shape using any of the various CV utilities in the shop (or the Envelope out of something like Sweeper or Grain/Europa)? What if you wanted to trigger a modulation envelope with a kick drum to control a parameter on another synth somewhere else in the project? What if you wanted to use the CV programmer lanes in Player or Pattern devices to adjust synth parameters as well as send note data, or send interesting/rhythmical curve shapes to effect devices that don't have pattern sequencers?

For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
Thanks for the info but this part was already clear I'm just wondering how you would do the mapping between midi cc channel and the vst synth since most synths don't have midi cc as a mod source
Ah gotcha! Well from my experience so far it's just done through MIDI learn. So you set your VST up to receive from RRP, right click a control, learn, set the modulation source going and it's assigned to whatever CC number you're transmitting on from the MIDI Out Device.

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Eurikon
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Post 06 Mar 2020

FWIW the problem of not being able to receive CC from the midi-out device in RRP, also exists in Bitwig, which is really a pity.
I contacted Bitwig about it , no response yet.

As it is now, the VST wrapper device in Bitwig does not transmit CC out to the next device in chain.
At least not with RRP, i haven't checked any other VST.
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chimp_spanner
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Post 06 Mar 2020

Eurikon wrote:
06 Mar 2020
FWIW the problem of not being able to receive CC from the midi-out device in RRP, also exists in Bitwig, which is really a pity.
I contacted Bitwig about it , no response yet.

As it is now, the VST wrapper device in Bitwig does not transmit CC out to the next device in chain.
At least not with RRP, i haven't checked any other VST.
It won't work with any other VST3 plugin. VST2, is fine. Also AU is fine if you're on Mac. I guess at the moment it probably seems like RRP is a special case (although it's nice to see PreSonus acknowledge that it's not *just* this plugin). But as the VST2 format is deprecated now I think this will become more of an issue in time until the hosts catch up!

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XysteR
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Post 06 Mar 2020

Can the Reason rack be used within Reason itself? I'm curious if this is the answer to get proper midi functionality with my Access Virus Ti2 and Virus Control plugin

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EnochLight
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Post 06 Mar 2020

XysteR wrote:
06 Mar 2020
Can the Reason rack be used within Reason itself? I'm curious if this is the answer to get proper midi functionality with my Access Virus Ti2 and Virus Control plugin
No, it cannot.
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Boombastix
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Post 06 Mar 2020

XysteR wrote:
06 Mar 2020
Can the Reason rack be used within Reason itself? I'm curious if this is the answer to get proper midi functionality with my Access Virus Ti2 and Virus Control plugin
Only if you use a VST host as a VST2 in Reason, that can load a VST3 (The Rack Plugin).
Probably the way to go and build up Racks that way if you then want to finish the song/mix in another DAW, though getting "midi stems" out of Reason is not that straight forward.
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Boombastix
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Post 06 Mar 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
06 Mar 2020
For whatever reason RRP doesn't load VST right now. So in light of that, MIDI CC acts like invisible CV between the rack and your other plugins. It's absolutely essential IMO.
Interesting. So, many other DAWs don't handle midi CC, thus the CV feature (a signature feature of Reason and RRP) cannot be fully utilized.
Reason did not test this?

Add RRP VST hosting and it fixes this, but not a word if they will/are considering it. Hmmmm. Mattias needs to step up his game as Product Manager IMO, and put a focus on this. I hope he does.
And the VST hosting will make Reason Standalone Combinators with VSTs compatible with RRP, more fluid work-flow between DAWs. Makes so much sense.
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