ReWire : A Conversation on it's Demise.

[Proboscis]

First of all, hello to ShelLuser. I'm anticipating that you'll be an active part of this discussion.

So with Reason 11 came another nail in the coffin, that takes us even further away from the once lauded claim of "Reason is always backwards compatible". ReWire is gone.

Have you been affected by this, as a self-identified Reason user, who pipes in to another DAW via ReWire as part of your process ?

I have some theories as to the decision being made to drop it, particularly when the new version brought "Reason VST" with the upgrade. I can even see some justifications. It's never had much 'airtime' from camp Sweden, Reason Studios, about they 'why'.

In the interests of not influencing the thread with my own theories, I'll open the floor to others first.....

Why did they drop ReWire ?

[jlgrimes]

To be honest I stopped using Rewire awhile ago as there was some compatibility issues awhile ago that took awhile to get fixed.

The VST isn't perfect but yet I tend to use the VST more than I ever used Rewire. And I dont have to save two projects like I had to do with Rewire.

[Loque]

ReWire was sh!t. Cumbersome. An ugly workaround like the ReBirth input machine. Never liked it. Its good they dropped it and look forward into the future.

[TheDragonborg]

I used rewire only a couple times... and that was to sequence VSTs from Cubase in Reason as I loved Reason's sequencer so much more than Cubase's. Eventually I gave up and used Cubase exclusively when I started getting into hardware synths. When the external MIDI device was added I stopped using Cubase for most uses (I'd still use it if I wanted to use a certain VST). The final nail in that coffin came when VST support was added in. Now Reason is my only DAW. I was more upset over the loss of support for the Rebirth using the Rebirth input device. I know that it's emulation of the 303 is vert outdated and that the 808 and 909 sounds are just samples but I'm nostalgic for that sound. I mean I have a TB-3 and ABL3 RE if I really need that acid sound but that's just different.

[joeyluck]

I used ReWire and it was a pain. The Rack Plugin is certainly the better way to go. If we keep expecting them to support old tech, then there won't be any progress. I don't necessarily count this as a backwards compatibility issue, because it's more external of Reason. My ReWired Cubase projects broke long before any changes with Reason.

But in talking about compatibility, I guess you can compare it to Line 6 devices. In the sense that people could keep R8 around in case they had unfinished projects with Line 6 devices. Some people were really up in arms about it. It's understandable. But time has passed and I don't know too many people still using R8 much, they've upgraded and they've finished those old projects or just moved onto new ones. The same can be done with R10/R11 and ReWire. But the future is the RRP. They've shown us new features are coming. So keep R10 and finish up old projects and move forward using the RRP with future projects. But keeping ReWire support while introducing the RRP would only stunt it's growth and popularity. So solid decision to remove ReWire. And Reason now starts faster because ReWire support was removed. I approve.

[Yonatan]

I have never used ReWire but get a bit interested to try out.

My guess is that there might be a longer plan to bridge the gap between Reason DAW and the plugin Rack. I mean to take pieces of things from DAW and make it into the Rack. Gradually the plugin might do almost all one could do in Reason with ReWire.
But why not just make full Reason DAW as a plugin? They might consider this gradually approach a smarter way and that full DAW would take some extra cleanup that would be too time consuming so better start fresh with the Rack and later bring in what is enough of a demand for one by one..Thus making some core things in Reason DAW as Rack Extensions. In long run that modularity of things might have some benefits if working on the web, or on smaller devices. And some day we might get third party developers making modules that one can combine into ones dream DAW, that the way of both working and developing for a DAW becomes more flexible and modular. Just a wild guess.

[Oquasec]

The emi module & rrp made rewire (for reason) obsolete.
Loopmidi channels can replicate rewire if you load reason first then vst daw second.

[gullum]

I used rewire many years ago with nuendo because I had a vocalist and reason did not have audio recording, because rewire was so cumbersome and annoying to use we used to record the vocals then when finished imported them into NN-XT and continued working with Reason only from there on.

But why not just make full Reason DAW as a plugin?

Well there is very little from reason that that is not already in the Rack plugin the SSL mixer is there now as rack devices and when the players will work and get midi out it's only the sequencer left and I do not see any reason to have the sequencer in a DAW plugin that has a sequencer

[Yonatan]

When reading it being cumbersome to work in ReWire, I might just skip the hassle altogether.
Rack Plugin seems to be a good move. But for those already having lots of ReWired projects and find it less limited for what they need, I do understand the disappointment until Rack Plug has gotten more features.

[PhillipOrdonez]

No issues cause we still got Reason 10 to finish the old projects. All future projects that involve a second daw will be using the RRP. It is just easier. One project file beats two!

[orthodox]

To me, Rewire is the only way I can export 32-bit channel audio from a Reason song without worrying about possible clipping. It also allows me to share common LFOs and MIDI generators among multiple tracks and interconnect CVs between them, which I cannot do with the RRP.

[Yonatan]

To me, Rewire is the only way I can export 32-bit channel audio from a Reason song without worrying about possible clipping. It also allows me to share common LFOs and MIDI generators among multiple tracks and interconnect CVs between them, which I cannot do with the RRP.

If used to that extensive closeness between 2 DAWs I can understand that RRP will feel limited. What additions would it take for you to get same flexibility with RRP and Reason DAW?
Exporting separate tracks from Reason cannot be done in 32 bit yet if I remember right?
32 bit export would be one step although a few extra steps compared to having side by side.

[PhillipOrdonez]

To me, Rewire is the only way I can export 32-bit channel audio from a Reason song without worrying about possible clipping. It also allows me to share common LFOs and MIDI generators among multiple tracks and interconnect CVs between them, which I cannot do with the RRP.

If used to that extensive closeness between 2 DAWs I can understand that RRP will feel limited. What additions would it take for you to get same flexibility with RRP and Reason DAW?
Exporting separate tracks from Reason cannot be done in 32 bit yet if I remember right?
32 bit export would be one step although a few extra steps compared to having side by side.

Would be nice if instances of the RRP could talk to each other, a la inter plugin communication from iZotope. Maybe one day CV could be shared.

[Loque]

If used to that extensive closeness between 2 DAWs I can understand that RRP will feel limited. What additions would it take for you to get same flexibility with RRP and Reason DAW?
Exporting separate tracks from Reason cannot be done in 32 bit yet if I remember right?
32 bit export would be one step although a few extra steps compared to having side by side.

Would be nice if instances of the RRP could talk to each other, a la inter plugin communication from iZotope. Maybe one day CV could be shared.

Oh! Great idea!

[orthodox]

Would be nice if instances of the RRP could talk to each other, a la inter plugin communication from iZotope. Maybe one day CV could be shared.

It would be nice if you could open Reason app in 'ReConnect' mode and see all those active RRP contents in a common Rack.

[Data_Shrine]

I know I am in the minority, but the demise of Rewire meant I stopped using Reason the way I used to, in my main projects. I also stopped buying REs. Maybe I will again in the future, we'll see..

It actually wasn't painful to use, nor to setup, you seriously only had to do it once (templates!). But I guess it required a little bit of work that most weren't willing to do, especially now-days in the instant world, so, maybe it became a relic in that sense.

[Proboscis]

But in talking about compatibility, I guess you can compare it to Line 6 devices. In the sense that people could keep R8 around in case they had unfinished projects with Line 6 devices. Some people were really up in arms about it. It's understandable. But time has passed and I don't know too many people still using R8 much, they've upgraded and they've finished those old projects or just moved onto new ones. The same can be done with R10/R11 and ReWire.

Yes, we can compare this to Line 6. I'm of the mind that this was a terrible part of Reaosn's history to have removed stock devices. Whether I'm just assuming this or whether they announced 'why', I don't recall, but I imagine it was due to parent company Yamaha demanding it's withdrawal. It's still a poor reflection on Propellerhead for not having a solid commercial contract in place from the beginning that would stop this from happening.

The outcome was not only a lot of users songs becoming 'broken', but also made every ReFill sellers' products suddenly valueless, without some re-building. And the way they implemented the change was done poorly. They could have developed a script to create a 'close enough' tone approximation to new projects would still open, and play, with the Softube amps in their place. Instead, they are in there now, set to their default setting, and set to bypass or off (I don't remember which, either way it wasn't a solution well executed).

And in Propellerheads defense, they gave HEAPS of notice - one whole version - to allow people time to re-think their music, and to either render out their old tracks, or replace the amps. I think there was a time where the Softube amps AND the Line6 amps were in stock Reason at the same time.

I used the Line6 amps a lot. The guitar sim was pretty crappy, but the bass sim was ok. So this impacted me, but I was never so in love with a carefully crafted tone where it was impreative that it remain. And as you rightly pointed out, the Line6 gear still exists, in the versions it shipped with, so it's not as if it's disappeared entirely.

But the Rewire discontinuation came with no prior warning. And this is their own technology. Was there even an official statement from RS, or was it something buried in their FAQs ? Even if was announced on their Facebook page, why is it implied that in order to get important news about Reason, one must use Facebook ? I received no emails from RS advising of ReWire's demise

But the future is the RRP.


Yes, I too think the future is RRP (and the move towards RS being another PiB, once they 'convert' all the RE instruments to VST by using a wrapper). The further my other thread on 'features in other DAWs' unfolds, the more obvious it is that Reason as a standalone DAW will likely never be up to speed with competitors. So the likely way forward is to have their flagship product being the RRP. For new buyers, $399 to obtain a super-mega-multi-VST is probably representative of the best value over any other VST (or VST bundle) on the market.

[Proboscis]

Let's also remember that with R11 came two other removals.

Europa VST has been discontinued.

Balance Authorization has been discontinued.

Both their own products/services, and both have disappeared.

[ShelLuser]

First of all, hello to ShelLuser. I'm anticipating that you'll be an active part of this discussion.

Nah, I don't see the point.

It is what it is, I only vent my opinion about disliking it when I respond to a thread which asks for opinions, but for me it also ends there. I'm sticking with Reason 10 'Suite' (I pretty much own all Rack Extensions made by the Props), I added Komplete 12 Ultimate to my setup which now enhances my Live + Reason combo through Maschine and that's about it.

[thx]

Let's also remember that with R11 came two other removals.

Plus the Europa web player, which I loved to sample into R5!

At least I think it's gone. Who knows? Props website has been all at sea for 10 years now. At least now they have a distinctive name

[DJMaytag]

Europa VST has been discontinued.

I couldn’t give a sh*t about Balance, but why give up on Europa VST, unless you want to force people to use RRP? I really like Europa, and it was cool to load it up in Cubase,
but I’ve given up on Cubase and am 100% Reason now.