You also feeling ripped off upgrading?

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Yonatan
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Post 13 Feb 2020

MrFigg wrote:
13 Feb 2020
joeyluck wrote:
13 Feb 2020


I mean hey...if folks want to wait years for something to potentially be included in a bundle... I just buy stuff I want and need and try my best to time the sales. We all want to catch a sale. But the use I have gotten out of some REs far outweighs what someone gets waiting up to 6 years or so...
Nah...I bought REB and RDK REs despite having both the refills already. Then they showed up in the Rigs bundle...so NOT years. Same year actually.

Edit: oh yeah...and now also in Suite.
Yes, this was a horrible way of treating users.
I mean, I did not think it would be just so cynical in ways of selling stuff. Ok if you have not got the refills and bought them for 39, well, but even that would be a slap. But for us who had the refill license and bought the upgrade just to see it get in bundle and Suite so quickly and not get a penny % off for some compensatoon of what you already paid, it gives a very bad feeling.
Suite is not at all cheap if bought several of them newly released REs, if you add what you paid in total. So, no way to choose Suite in that instance. They even had all those sales on Layers and all the rest of them as deal of the week, triggering ppl to buy single REs, and then boom they were part of Suite and bundle. What a slap in the face! Bad behavior on my standards. Cynical money making.

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Proboscis
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Yes, this was a horrible way of treating users.
The whole 'Suite' thing was a shady move. As far as I know when you buy into it, you actually get assigned a Suite licence, not a Reason Licence + a Bundle of extras that makes up the Suite offer. Therefore one would say that all those RE's are considered native to the licence you have bought , and as such can sell it as one package, as you bought it? Oh no sorry, can't sell RE's, bad luck, is the answer from RS. What a rort (and ongoing potential violation of EU law on digital products). The sooner they sell off Reason and get rid of all the staff who pull this shady shit year after year, the better the platform will be.

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MrFigg
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
MrFigg wrote:
13 Feb 2020


Nah...I bought REB and RDK REs despite having both the refills already. Then they showed up in the Rigs bundle...so NOT years. Same year actually.

Edit: oh yeah...and now also in Suite.
Yes, this was a horrible way of treating users.
I mean, I did not think it would be just so cynical in ways of selling stuff. Ok if you have not got the refills and bought them for 39, well, but even that would be a slap. But for us who had the refill license and bought the upgrade just to see it get in bundle and Suite so quickly and not get a penny % off for some compensatoon of what you already paid, it gives a very bad feeling.
Suite is not at all cheap if bought several of them newly released REs, if you add what you paid in total. So, no way to choose Suite in that instance. They even had all those sales on Layers and all the rest of them as deal of the week, triggering ppl to buy single REs, and then boom they were part of Suite and bundle. What a slap in the face! Bad behavior on my standards. Cynical money making.
Oh yeah...Complex Dec 2018...and didn't Polystep Sequencer and Processed Pianos get released 2019?...hmm...yeah! NOT years.
丰2ॐ

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xboix
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Post 13 Feb 2020

If you don't like the deal, don't hand over the money. You still get to keep and use whatever previous version you paid for.

Yonatan
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Proboscis wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Yes, this was a horrible way of treating users.
The whole 'Suite' thing was a shady move. As far as I know when you buy into it, you actually get assigned a Suite licence, not a Reason Licence + a Bundle of extras that makes up the Suite offer. Therefore one would say that all those RE's are considered native to the licence you have bought , and as such can sell it as one package, as you bought it? Oh no sorry, can't sell RE's, bad luck, is the answer from RS. What a rort (and ongoing potential violation of EU law on digital products). The sooner they sell off Reason and get rid of all the staff who pull this shady shit year after year, the better the platform will be.
What made me love Reason and respect PH as a company at beginning was their SANITY and I felt proud even to buy things in RE shop that should have been a Standard core device etc.
But loyalty as that has flown out of the window.
Still like the software but it is not as if I could not live without Reason.
Agree with the confusing Suite...and how about the inability to sell REs. If they now changed the NDA of SDK, why not make a change so we can sell our REs, at least as part of selling Reason, to include the RE collection with ones Reason License. Would be sane and fair enough.

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Proboscis
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
What made me love Reason and respect PH as a company at beginning was their SANITY and I felt proud even to buy things in RE shop that should have been a Standard core device etc.
But loyalty as that has flown out of the window.
Yep, I too once had a lot of love for Propellerhead. But I've become more turned away when as each year passes, and all the staff do is blow in randomly onto social media and say 'Oh yea - we're listening to your suggestions' then do nothing. They trickle out new features at each release then make a press release to say "We're so dedicated to helping artists blah blah blah" which is nothing more than marketing spin in support of a new rollout. Some people drink the Kool-Aid, and that's their choice, but it's no longer me. Their customer service has gone from not so great to really shit, and in the past few years I've started to feel that they are working in direct competition to the third party RE developers who helped them generate interest in a whole new format (remember when the CEO said on record 'VST is crap', REs are awesome blah blah blah). I'm no longer supporting a company that conduct themselves in (what I perceive to be) a dishonest, unethical and outright sneaky manner. In that sense I do feel a bit 'ripped off', but life goes on. One more final $129, then goodbye.. unless of course the time comes when the company is sold off, and ALL the staff that have contributed to it's decline and general laziness over the past are gone, to make room for fresh, innovative & passionate team members, then I might be interested in supporting their future. But I've had enough of the smoke & mirrors. It's becoming more obvious to me with every day that passes, how far behind features they are as a software developer in a well populated DAW market.

TritoneAddiction
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Post 13 Feb 2020

I can see if this upgrade wasn't that great to some people. And I can also see where some of the RS criticism comes from. I agree with some of it. For example that it's pretty much for certain that if you buy any new RE from RS, it's gonna end up in a Reason upgrade sooner or later. At the same time, you pay full price to get new shit NOW and not later. We all know prices go down after a while, that's not in any way unique to RS.

But I also have to agree with some other comments here. How can you say you're being "ripped off" when you knew exactly what you paid for and were able to trial everything beforehand? Perhaps it's just the wording that confuses me?

For me the Suite version was pretty alright. I bought it and I can't say I regret it. Some things didn't do much for me while others have been really great. I've already incorprated a lot of the Suite RE instruments in many of my recent tracks so it's pretty much been worth it already. The new quick transpose function has been suprisingly useful. Curved automation has also been very useful for me. Also I really like Scenic. That one has added something new sonically in my recent tracks for sure. But pretty much all the new REs included have been used in my latest 7 tracks at some point.

I feel like if people just decided to actually make a bunch of music with their newly bought upgrades/REs and put it to good use they wouldn't moan so much about it. Your latest purchase has now become part of your art and creativity. That's what it's all about right? It wouldn't sound the same without it. It's hard to regret a purchase at that point imo. That's the way i look at it at least.

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MrFigg
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Post 13 Feb 2020

TritoneAddiction wrote:
13 Feb 2020
At the same time, you pay full price to get new shit NOW and not later. We all know prices go down after a while, that's not in any way unique to RS.
Yeah man...but 3 and a half months after you've bought them for €99 and €69 and etc. etc.? I think that's the reason folk are cynical about buying Propellerheads REs now. But I guess you already understand that.
Frankly I've stopped caring about it, accepted it and moved on with my life. But...lesson learned.
丰2ॐ

TritoneAddiction
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Post 13 Feb 2020

MrFigg wrote:
13 Feb 2020
TritoneAddiction wrote:
13 Feb 2020
At the same time, you pay full price to get new shit NOW and not later. We all know prices go down after a while, that's not in any way unique to RS.
Yeah man...but 3 and a half months after you've bought them for €99 and €69 and etc. etc.? I think that's the reason folk are cynical about buying Propellerheads REs now. But I guess you already understand that.
Frankly I've stopped caring about it, accepted it and moved on with my life. But...lesson learned.
Yeah I get that. And long term I don't think that's the best move from RS. Not a great way to build trust. I'm very hesitant to buy any new REs from RS for this reason. The pattern is pretty clear at this point. But if they do release something I really want and I do want it NOW I'll buy it, despite knowing full well that it might be included in the next Reason ugrade.

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Proboscis
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Post 13 Feb 2020

TritoneAddiction wrote:
13 Feb 2020
I feel like if people just decided to actually make a bunch of music with their newly bought upgrades/REs and put it to good use they wouldn't moan so much about it. Your latest purchase has now become part of your art and creativity. That's what it's all about right? It wouldn't sound the same without it. It's hard to regret a purchase at that point imo. That's the way i look at it at least.
For me the lacklustre update was just another one of many dubious actions that leave a sour taste in ones mouth. How about the wizz bang 'Rewards' voucher, in which the site was designed to trick people into activating it, thus start a countdown ? Who the hell designs something in that way ? And that the only RE's that were eligible were a small handful out of 1,000s. Or the 'Rent To Own' where you have the opportunity to buy FULL PRICED RE's over time, when they know full well that the RE's will be on sale two or three times a year at 50% off. That's a mighty huge interest rate. Or the abandoning of Balance support ? Or the quiet disappearance of ReWire. Or that RE's can't be sold, despite EU laws to the contrary. Or the abandoning of Alihoopa, which was meant to be the greatest thing since sliced bread ? Or the clear design flaws in the Combinator that have been ignored for 10 years. Or repackaging old ReFills to sell back to us as new products. Or that they released Europa so soon after an RE partner released their own premium monster synth. Same again with a Player release. A shit version release is one page in a long story, that for me is thankfully drawing to a close in 2021/2022. These guys are shady as fuck, and i'm as much disappointed in myself for not realizing this sooner.

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joeyluck
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Buy the tools you need when you need them. Use the tools that you bought. Make those tools pay for themselves. Wait for a sale or don't. Wait for a bundle or don't.

Stop buying stuff just because it's on sale. Stop buying stuff you won't use. This will help you to stop living in regret.

Yonatan
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Post 13 Feb 2020

The thing is that the Suite did not take into any consideration all those who have bought quite a few of the devices already. NO way to upgrade to Standard and get extra good deal on the ones in the Suite that one may not own, as a good gesture. No, it is all or nothing.

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orthodox
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Post 13 Feb 2020

I hoped that whining surge was over, yet we're having it again. I really don't see what's so unfair about the R11 Suite bundle. There are many customers with different purchase histories and considerations. Whatever move they RS may make with pricing, someone will always be unhappy. I guess they have estimated the numbers of these and those and made the decision. Should they have restricted their business decisions so as not to hurt the minority?
What I also don't understand is talking about things like 'empathy', 'care' and such. It's retail business, for god's sake, and it's about money. What have all those feelings got to do with it?
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

TritoneAddiction
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Post 13 Feb 2020

joeyluck wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Buy the tools you need when you need them. Use the tools that you bought. Make those tools pay for themselves. Wait for a sale or don't. Wait for a bundle or don't.

Stop buying stuff just because it's on sale. Stop buying stuff you won't use. This will help you to stop living in regret.
Pretty much sums up how I feel.

Yonatan
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Isnt it strange that AI is very much a thing, wherever you go there are commercials targeted via your traces. RS has all the data they need to see which users owns what and how much they paid, what version they are on etc. But nothing of that is used intelligently. How hard can it be to let ppl complete their RS RE collection? Or when included Radical Pianos for as stock, nothing extra for those already paid for it. I just think one can demand more of a company that knows so much data but use methods as if it were super hard to have some better customer service and rewards and deals.
It just baffles me there is no way to complete bundles etc. They have it all in their database.
You have these already and paid this amount, it allows you to get these loyalty rewards to use.

ab459
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Post 13 Feb 2020

I wanted to wait for the sale too, but damn could not resist and bought upgrade to the suite a week ago. Though fortunately i'm relatively recent user, and haven’t bought anything before, what suite offers.

Well, regarding topic question - definitely no, not feel. Naturally, I thought ten times and tried the demo.

Initially (even before v11 time) the most interest for me was in Parsec and Polar fx, what costs together almost 200$
Then, recently tried demo and was really delighted by use Reason effects (and Subtractor :) ) in Studio One (since it's my main DAW), so, already considering these two factors (two RE's + rack plugin) - the choice was obvious.
And now, after week of using v11, additionally liked QuadGenerator and Complex1, ie i think i initially underestimated this without trying. Really useful stuff.

So, there is absolutely no regret after upgrade, but vice versa lot of fun.

Additionally wanted to say about price - yes, i also would be glad to grab it cheaper (as already said), but for example, recently i bought Pianoteq (Standard) which costs like whole upgrade to R11, but damn, it just single plugin. You understand me.
zebbleganubi wrote:
12 Feb 2020
kitekrazy wrote:
12 Feb 2020
I avoid most RE's because they clutter up the OS drive without the simple option LIKE OTHER DAWS to most extras to a different drive.
i could be wrong but i think you can symlink the folder. i symlinked the soundbank files
I did this too (for main rs folders, Thanks to local thread btw for places tips). Very handy and quick way, though i'm not a IT sucker.

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orthodox
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Isnt it strange that AI is very much a thing, wherever you go there are commercials targeted via your traces. RS has all the data they need to see which users owns what and how much they paid, what version they are on etc. But nothing of that is used intelligently. How hard can it be to let ppl complete their RS RE collection? Or when included Radical Pianos for as stock, nothing extra for those already paid for it. I just think one can demand more of a company that knows so much data but use methods as if it were super hard to have some better customer service and rewards and deals.
It just baffles me there is no way to complete bundles etc. They have it all in their database.
You have these already and paid this amount, it allows you to get these loyalty rewards to use.
So you're suggesting that they split all their bundles and put on sale all those REs that happen to appear in them, even if for selected customers. What would be their benefit of that? Sales can be profitable and not. They offer bundles in the first place to make people pay for the products they didn't initially intended to buy. You as a customer have a limited number of offers to choose from, that's a marketing technique.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

Yonatan
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Post 13 Feb 2020

orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Isnt it strange that AI is very much a thing, wherever you go there are commercials targeted via your traces. RS has all the data they need to see which users owns what and how much they paid, what version they are on etc. But nothing of that is used intelligently. How hard can it be to let ppl complete their RS RE collection? Or when included Radical Pianos for as stock, nothing extra for those already paid for it. I just think one can demand more of a company that knows so much data but use methods as if it were super hard to have some better customer service and rewards and deals.
It just baffles me there is no way to complete bundles etc. They have it all in their database.
You have these already and paid this amount, it allows you to get these loyalty rewards to use.
So you're suggesting that they split all their bundles and put on sale all those REs that happen to appear in them, even if for selected customers. What would be their benefit of that? Sales can be profitable and not. They offer bundles in the first place to make people pay for the products they didn't initially intended to buy. You as a customer have a limited number of offers to choose from, that's a marketing technique.
No, I want to be able to complete a bundle according to what already bought. And/or a decent Reward system. It is not Rocket science.

But to balance it with some praise, I must say that all these points gets a bit less important as RE Subscription service have it done right from what I can see. Must try that out soon. Hope they keep that going. :)
Just for the sake of being able to re-trial RE that sunken into forgotten memory, it is great to try RE longer time and then buy those which one really need as stock devices.

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orthodox
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020


So you're suggesting that they split all their bundles and put on sale all those REs that happen to appear in them, even if for selected customers. What would be their benefit of that? Sales can be profitable and not. They offer bundles in the first place to make people pay for the products they didn't initially intended to buy. You as a customer have a limited number of offers to choose from, that's a marketing technique.
No, I want to be able to complete a bundle according to what already bought. And/or a decent Reward system. It is not Rocket science.
You can't 'complete' the bundle that wasn't there when you bought some parts of it and, as such, this offer does not apply to you. It's not rocket science. Either you accept the deal or you forget about it and stop begrudging other users their luck.
One day maybe markets will come to such solutions and competing companies will be forced to share the common practices. Until then, there's no benefit for them in helping you save your money.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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diminished
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Re: completing your bundle;

Strictly economically speaking, besides gaining new customers, a company has to decide wether they want SOME money from their old users rather than no money at all.
I can only speak for myself, but it's "no money" at the moment. Take it as it is, it's just the way it is and if it's fine with RS then I couldn't care less either.

And a happy and supporting community is probably worth more in the long run than quick returns. Because here's the deal, nobody outside of this bubble is really talking about Reason. And that should worry you, orthodox, as a RE developer as well.

I don't think an approach to economics taken straight out of a 90s textbook is going to help a company that has built up a user base for 20 years now. It's not soap they're selling.
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

PhillipOrdonez
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Post 13 Feb 2020

orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020
I hoped that whining surge was over, yet we're having it again. I really don't see what's so unfair about the R11 Suite bundle. There are many customers with different purchase histories and considerations. Whatever move they RS may make with pricing, someone will always be unhappy. I guess they have estimated the numbers of these and those and made the decision. Should they have restricted their business decisions so as not to hurt the minority?
What I also don't understand is talking about things like 'empathy', 'care' and such. It's retail business, for god's sake, and it's about money. What have all those feelings got to do with it?
It never ends in Reason land nowadays, it seems. It's getting annoying.

--Maybe potential buyers of the company want to have the lowest price possible and are trying everything they can to achieve this---

Yonatan
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Post 13 Feb 2020

orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020


No, I want to be able to complete a bundle according to what already bought. And/or a decent Reward system. It is not Rocket science.
You can't 'complete' the bundle that wasn't there when you bought some parts of it and, as such, this offer does not apply to you. It's not rocket science. Either you accept the deal or you forget about it and stop begrudging other users their luck.
One day maybe markets will come to such solutions and competing companies will be forced to share the common practices. Until then, there's no benefit for them in helping you save your money.
Well, I am writing about how to get more content users by using info in the data base.
I know that is not how it works now in shop.
Making a more useful and fairer market, is not rocket science but it is more advanced than what is now, which is very square.

If no one voice their opinions as users, nothing will progress. Customers must raise their points. And no, I dont expect all goes my way or the highway. Just that when one writes about structural changes, it is not seen as only a personal level. If it was only me, why spend any energy pointing out a need for a better shop.
No, it is not just a personal thing. It is trying to point out basic cause and effect on why fewer are happy with the way RS have been doing business.
Off course one can just ignore all that, as one can ignore anything in society. And yes there is a balance in critique. The opposite is to criticize every little thing and thus seek total perfection in everything. And that is also unbearable.
There need be a middle ground, both pointing out what could work better for more ppl, and accepting that things are as is.

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orthodox
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Post 13 Feb 2020

diminished wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Strictly economically speaking, besides gaining new customers, a company has to decide wether they want SOME money from their old users rather than no money at all.
I can only speak for myself, but it's "no money" at the moment. Take it as it is, it's just the way it is and if it's fine with RS then I couldn't care less either.
Well, I didn't upgrade to R11 either just because there was nothing useful for me in it. The latest SDK still works for R10 and I know that many users are still staying with it. Yet I know that many users have bought R11 Suite despite they already had many REs from the Suite bundle. Can it be that it brought RS more money than they would have earned if they had that flexible pricing policy on the included REs? I suppose it could.
diminished wrote:
13 Feb 2020
And a happy and supporting community is probably worth more in the long run than quick returns. Because here's the deal, nobody outside of this bubble is really talking about Reason. And that should worry you, orthodox, as a RE developer as well.
Yes I'm part of that bubble, but I'm all for letting RS raise more money, get more customers and stand firmly on their feet, especially accounting the rumours about their difficulties.
diminished wrote:
13 Feb 2020
I don't think an approach to economics taken straight out of a 90s textbook is going to help a company that has built up a user base for 20 years now. It's not soap they're selling.
How many companies in the DAW market have yet adopted the flexible pricing standards you're appealing for?
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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orthodox
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Post 13 Feb 2020

Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020


You can't 'complete' the bundle that wasn't there when you bought some parts of it and, as such, this offer does not apply to you. It's not rocket science. Either you accept the deal or you forget about it and stop begrudging other users their luck.
One day maybe markets will come to such solutions and competing companies will be forced to share the common practices. Until then, there's no benefit for them in helping you save your money.
Well, I am writing about how to get more content users by using info in the data base.
I know that is not how it works now in shop.
Making a more useful and fairer market, is not rocket science but it is more advanced than what is now, which is very square.
IMO, there is nothing fair about markets. They're just a set of customs serving some goals, like to reward producers for their work, let them cover their expenses etc. Today they're what they are, tomorrow they may be different. Some may say that paying for a digital copy of a product is unfair because it costs nothing for them producers. What you call 'fairer' will effectively mean just that a company gets less and customers save more, so prices will go up to compensate for that.
Yonatan wrote:
13 Feb 2020
No, it is not just a personal thing. It is trying to point out basic cause and effect on why fewer are happy with the way RS have been doing business.
I've seen more discontent with some earlier Reason releases, so I don't think it's getting any worse.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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diminished
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Post 13 Feb 2020

orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020

Well, I didn't upgrade to R11 either just because there was nothing useful for me in it. The latest SDK still works for R10 and I know that many users are still staying with it. Yet I know that many users have bought R11 Suite despite they already had many REs from the Suite bundle. Can it be that it brought RS more money than they would have earned if they had that flexible pricing policy on the included REs? I suppose it could.
That might be true, the question still stands: why not both?
orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020
Yes I'm part of that bubble, but I'm all for letting RS raise more money, get more customers and stand firmly on their feet, especially accounting the rumours about their difficulties.
I'm in the same boat, because I love Reason and commited to it both in terms of workflow and "money put into REs". My wish for them to endure and get better is not altruistic at all.
The point I'm making is, there aren't that many people like us and when a company is niche like that, it's important to have a good reputation. The users they have are the ones doing the marketing for them online, let's be real. We recommend, we answer questions, we make tutorials and most importantly make music. All I can say is that if it was my company and I'd have to read about parts of the usergroup being this unhappy about things that shouldn't be that hard to fix (rewards, complete your bundle), I'd be on the edge of my chair.
orthodox wrote:
13 Feb 2020
How many companies in the DAW market have yet adopted the flexible pricing standards you're appealing for?
Not that many have their own plugin format. It's an open market for everyone else.
inb4 "Reason supports VST": it's limited support.
:reason: Most recent track: resentment (synthwave) || Others: on my YouTube channel •ᴗ•

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