This new "thing" RS working on, will it be included in R11?

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MattiasHG
Reason Studios
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20 Feb 2020

Busta US wrote:
20 Feb 2020
MattiasHG wrote:
20 Feb 2020

My personal opinion is that people are free to make music in whichever way they want, it's all valid. You do you.
So you are the Product Manager, huh ? Dude, why are you neglecting the Reason DAW ? Yes clap clap clap for the plugin and the little Ableton tutorial, but what about all those Reason DAW core users ? F%#!k em or what ? Do you read the Feature Requests ? What about that whole huge list you made of the REALLY necessary features for Reason 11 ?

Care to be more expressive ?
We released Reason 11 five months ago, it included a lot of improvements for the DAW users but it was also the launch of the Reason Rack Plugin—a brand new thing for us. We were flooded with user requests about the plugin too (MIDI out, AAX etc.) and we quickly want to make sure the plugin feels solid and finished since it's a brand new product. I don't want to be defensive, that's just the thinking behind it.

This doesn't mean we're neglecting the Reason DAW, we're working on a lot of things! Heck, I use the DAW for all my music making myself and I read almost every feature request. In 11.2 we wanted to make sure that everyone using Reason 11 got something great—it has bug fixes for both DAW and plugin, MIDI Out Device is updated for both DAW and plugin, Beat Map's included for free for both DAW and plugin.

All that said, I really do appreciate the candid feedback! Development takes time, we're working hard, and we're doing things that will definitely make the core Reason DAW users very happy. :)

dusan.cani
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Location: Slovakia

20 Feb 2020

reddust wrote:
20 Feb 2020
Let's just not take different opinions as offenses, No one wants a cookie here and of course it's not a contest, it's just a personal preference. I can understand why other people might prefer tools like this but for me it is not fun if a software devices does the work I like doing myself, that would be for me like purchasing a computer game and let the computer play while I watch.

For some people that might be fun, but not for me. Not to tell about how this kind of devices make a lot of people sound all the same because if we like it or not these devices have their limits too. I am the type of guy who likes to listen to the human component in music, even in electronic music. With some devices it is very common to end up recognizing the device when you listen a song but not recognizing who the artist is.
:thumbs_up:

Busta US
Posts: 160
Joined: 26 Oct 2019

20 Feb 2020

MattiasHG wrote:
20 Feb 2020
Busta US wrote:
20 Feb 2020


So you are the Product Manager, huh ? Dude, why are you neglecting the Reason DAW ? Yes clap clap clap for the plugin and the little Ableton tutorial, but what about all those Reason DAW core users ? F%#!k em or what ? Do you read the Feature Requests ? What about that whole huge list you made of the REALLY necessary features for Reason 11 ?

Care to be more expressive ?
We released Reason 11 five months ago, it included a lot of improvements for the DAW users but it was also the launch of the Reason Rack Plugin—a brand new thing for us. We were flooded with user requests about the plugin too (MIDI out, AAX etc.) and we quickly want to make sure the plugin feels solid and finished since it's a brand new product. I don't want to be defensive, that's just the thinking behind it.

This doesn't mean we're neglecting the Reason DAW, we're working on a lot of things! Heck, I use the DAW for all my music making myself and I read almost every feature request. In 11.2 we wanted to make sure that everyone using Reason 11 got something great—it has bug fixes for both DAW and plugin, MIDI Out Device is updated for both DAW and plugin, Beat Map's included for free for both DAW and plugin.

All that said, I really do appreciate the candid feedback! Development takes time, we're working hard, and we're doing things that will definitely make the core Reason DAW users very happy. :)
Fair enough... I respect that you have replied. Glad to know you're working on the DAW. We Reason DAW users deserve a hell of a treat after you have fulfilled the Plugin user's needs. We have suffered :(

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chimp_spanner
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20 Feb 2020

reddust wrote:
20 Feb 2020
chimp_spanner wrote:
20 Feb 2020
I really cannot stand the gatekeeping around what constitutes creating music or not. I'll say it again; assistive/generative tools, loops, helpers, etc. will not produce good music without an idea or some musical intent. I feel like some people want a cookie because they can do all the parts themselves. And if you can, great. Someone might be an AMAZING top line writer, but not a great drum programmer. Someone might be awesome at mixing but not a keyboardist. I have absolutely no issue if Players help those people realise their ideas faster.

Me? I love drum programming, and I still personally find value in devices or programs that can spit out new or unexpected ideas. I play guitar but I still use Shreddage when I wanna try things out. I play keyboard but I still use Chords and Scales when I'm in a hurry.

It's not a pissing contest. Make something that tickles my ear just right, and I really couldn't care less how it was made.
Let's just not take different opinions as offenses, No one wants a cookie here and of course it's not a contest, it's just a personal preference. I can understand why other people might prefer tools like this but for me it is not fun if a software devices does the work I like doing myself, that would be for me like purchasing a computer game and let the computer play while I watch.

For some people that might be fun, but not for me. Not to tell about how this kind of devices make a lot of people sound all the same because if we like it or not these devices have their limits too. I am the type of guy who likes to listen to the human component in music, even in electronic music. With some devices it is very common to end up recognizing the device when you listen a song but not recognizing who the artist is.
Oh it's not offence really. Just frustration. And btw I'm coming from the perspective of someone who used to be pretty much exclusively into technical, progressive metal. Which is just like the BIGGEST wankfest you can imagine haha. It's literally an arms race of technicality and proficiency and I took part in it for the longest time. Eventually I just got tired of it. I also plateaued haaaard. Not really sure why. But I started enjoying music that previously I would've turned my nose up at because it uses sampling, or drum machines, etc.

I guess these days I'm just far less bothered about how hard something is to make unless it's integral to the emotional impact of the song. Sometimes there really are no shortcuts. But sometimes there are, and I don't have a problem if people take them so long as they're trying to do something cool. It's really case by case/song by song for me.

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dan_g
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20 Feb 2020

so, seeing the beatmap intro video. Nice idea and i bet there are a ton of people who will use this. good also that it will be a native device in r11.

but this device is not for me. i don't want to be decided over were my kick or hat should be, i want full control over every single hit. but thats just my kind of workflow and how i approach production in general. sure sometimes i want to be super random and see what the outcome will bring, but most of the time not.
:reason: :record: :re: :refill: :ignition: - 12 - Hobbyist
minimal techno - deep minimal dubstep - drum 'n' bass/neurofunk - brostep/deathstep - band recording

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reddust
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20 Feb 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
20 Feb 2020
reddust wrote:
20 Feb 2020


Let's just not take different opinions as offenses, No one wants a cookie here and of course it's not a contest, it's just a personal preference. I can understand why other people might prefer tools like this but for me it is not fun if a software devices does the work I like doing myself, that would be for me like purchasing a computer game and let the computer play while I watch.

For some people that might be fun, but not for me. Not to tell about how this kind of devices make a lot of people sound all the same because if we like it or not these devices have their limits too. I am the type of guy who likes to listen to the human component in music, even in electronic music. With some devices it is very common to end up recognizing the device when you listen a song but not recognizing who the artist is.
Oh it's not offence really. Just frustration. And btw I'm coming from the perspective of someone who used to be pretty much exclusively into technical, progressive metal. Which is just like the BIGGEST wankfest you can imagine haha. It's literally an arms race of technicality and proficiency and I took part in it for the longest time. Eventually I just got tired of it. I also plateaued haaaard. Not really sure why. But I started enjoying music that previously I would've turned my nose up at because it uses sampling, or drum machines, etc.

I guess these days I'm just far less bothered about how hard something is to make unless it's integral to the emotional impact of the song. Sometimes there really are no shortcuts. But sometimes there are, and I don't have a problem if people take them so long as they're trying to do something cool. It's really case by case/song by song for me.
Haha, nice to see how we come from the same world and took the same path, I used to play extreme metal many years ago too and also got sick of its often lack of emotional content - of course with some exceptions. But I am with you that I like music these days more because of the emotional impact and the story behind a composition rather than just showing how good someone can play an instrument. My guitars stay in the case for months these days and I also prefer using sampling and software tools.

Talking about emotional impact I prefer doing things myself exactly because of that, because I try to pay attention to each part of a composition and I think I can reach my goal in a more accurate way if I do it by myself, but I can understand not everyone can do this or have the time or motivation to do it, I do myself use players sometimes or automate effects but I try to have the control over what they do all the time. That's why I guess I am not a friend of letting a software AI do the work for me because it feels a little bit like playing lottery, the device might bring up something interesting but might be not while I mostly know what I want. Saying this, I could imagine this device as a source for inspiration too in case you reach some point where you don't know how to go further with your track.

Either way, I think the problem for most Reason users here is that after a rather disappointing R11 major update we expected more DAW improvements in this minor update instead of a new device that isn't ever free for R11 owners. <-- Edit: my bad, I've heard it is actually free for R11 owners
Last edited by reddust on 20 Feb 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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reddust
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20 Feb 2020

MattiasHG wrote:
20 Feb 2020
This doesn't mean we're neglecting the Reason DAW, we're working on a lot of things!

(...)

All that said, I really do appreciate the candid feedback! Development takes time, we're working hard, and we're doing things that will definitely make the core Reason DAW users very happy. :)
Nice to hear this, as you can see we are all a little bit impatient to get those DAW improvements but as a software developer myself I can understand it takes time to get them ready and better to wait a little bit longer for a consistent update than having quicker an update full of bugs

madmacman
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20 Feb 2020

dan_g wrote:
20 Feb 2020
but this device is not for me. i don't want to be decided over were my kick or hat should be, i want full control over every single hit. but thats just my kind of workflow and how i approach production in general. sure sometimes i want to be super random and see what the outcome will bring, but most of the time not.
Well, to me it’s like using loops with some optional variance. Not bad, because achieving something similar with REX slices is a more tedious task.

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Creativemind
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20 Feb 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
20 Feb 2020
Generative tools will not make good music without musical intent. If you don't know what sounds good, it's not gonna do all the work for you. It's a tool for discovery, accidental inspiration, unexpected results. You might just use it to trigger hats and program your own kicks and snares in Drum SEQ. Totally fine if it's not something that interests you but people who can (and do) program their own beats can still find interesting, imaginative ways to use something like this.
But I know what beat / rhythm my music needs. I make (as far as electronic music goes) old skool house music so I know what sounds I need, what rhythm it's gonna have and the bpm so this device (no offence) will not be of any use to me. As much as it's a good and useful device, as stated over and over and over again on this forum, Reasons functionality is what's the most important thing. If Reason Studio's spent all the time and manpower improving Reasons core functionality, people (including myself) would be well happy.

These types of things should be just included in the shop as 'something you can buy if that's what you're after' and updates should be things that improve the daw. Just don't get it.
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.82 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
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chimp_spanner
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20 Feb 2020

reddust wrote:
20 Feb 2020

Haha, nice to see how we come from the same world and took the same path, I used to play extreme metal many years ago too and also got sick of its often lack of emotional content - of course with some exceptions. But I am with you that I like music these days more because of the emotional impact and the story behind a composition rather than just showing how good someone can play an instrument. My guitars stay in the case for months these days and I also prefer using sampling and software tools.

Talking about emotional impact I prefer doing things myself exactly because of that, because I try to pay attention to each part of a composition and I think I can reach my goal in a more accurate way if I do it by myself, but I can understand not everyone can do this or have the time or motivation to do it, I do myself use players sometimes or automate effects but I try to have the control over what they do all the time. That's why I guess I am not a friend of letting a software AI do the work for me because it feels a little bit like playing lottery, the device might bring up something interesting but might be not while I mostly know what I want. Saying this, I could imagine this device as a source for inspiration too in case you reach some point where you don't know how to go further with your track.

Either way, I think the problem for most Reason users here is that after a rather disappointing R11 major update we expected more DAW improvements in this minor update instead of a new device that isn't ever free for R11 owners. <-- Edit: my bad, I've heard it is actually free for R11 owners
Tell me about it - there's a thick layer of dust on my guitars. Actually makes me feel bad. Just every time people ask me when I'm making a new album I'm like "yeah that's cool but I just heard Machinedrum for the first time and wanna make that" :lol:

Doesn't mean I won't return to it. The DOOM soundtrack got me hyped for guitars again, but even then it's probably because it has that hybrid/electronic approach.

I really don't want anyone to get me wrong; there's absolutely merit to hand-placing things for a specific purpose or effect. A lot of the time with Players I'll use them to spit out something kind of interesting, print to MIDI, then move it about. I guess the generative stuff is tied in a lot to RS's's's (and I'd imagine Mattias's's) love of modular hardware. One thing I find interesting about that stuff is that kind of...'ghost in the machine' effect. Things just emerge out of the chaos or out of algorithms and it can be equally satisfying. One of my favourite electronic artists is Jon Hopkins. Was listening to Immunity the other day and I wondered how much of what was going on was deliberate, vs a clock jittering or something feeding back; not a deliberate choice, but the result of choices made in the way things are connected and triggered.

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Creativemind
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20 Feb 2020

Steedus wrote:
20 Feb 2020
Looks really fun, I’m glad it’s included as a free update, though personally I’m still sitting this version out.

To the people crying about the sanctity of ‘I only want to make the beat as I hear it in my head’, I’m sorry but stop being so pretentious and go have some fun like the rest of us.
What are you talking about? if you make a certain kind of music like I do, you know what beat and rhythm (ok, can vary but within a certain range) you're making. Seems to me Reason Studio's just want Reason to be a toy and not a serious daw. Have fun? I would if features were included in Reason that help me get from A to B quicker and make the whole experience more streamlined and then the song that I'm trying to make was finished quicker.
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.82 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
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madmacman
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20 Feb 2020

Creativemind wrote:
20 Feb 2020
I would if features were included in Reason that help me get from A to B quicker and make the whole experience more streamlined and then the song that I'm trying to make was finished quicker.
You have five (!) DAWs in your signature. So what‘s the problem? Use what fits your needs.

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reddust
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20 Feb 2020

Steedus wrote:
20 Feb 2020
To the people crying about the sanctity of ‘I only want to make the beat as I hear it in my head’, I’m sorry but stop being so pretentious and go have some fun like the rest of us.
Haven''t you thought some people might have fun by creating their own beats? Come on, don't be so pretentious :lol:

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Creativemind
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20 Feb 2020

madmacman wrote:
20 Feb 2020
Creativemind wrote:
20 Feb 2020
I would if features were included in Reason that help me get from A to B quicker and make the whole experience more streamlined and then the song that I'm trying to make was finished quicker.
You have five (!) DAWs in your signature. So what‘s the problem? Use what fits your needs.
Yes and I'm contemplating just switching full time now to Reaper with Reason 10 rewired. Possibly Cakewalk By Bandlab. The only things missing from those daw's are sounds. That's where Rewire comes in. I don't think I can justify spending £100 on upgrading just to use Thor, Combinator, Dr.Octo.Rex, Kong and ReDrum in another daw, just rewire with 10.4.
Last edited by Creativemind on 20 Feb 2020, edited 1 time in total.
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.82 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
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EdGrip
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20 Feb 2020

I think maybe it helps to think of generative tools like this as "letting go of control".

It's easy to get to thinking that if a machine is making a drum pattern, or generating a sequence of notes, or even if you've used a ready-made drum loop, it's not your music. Nah.

We'll skip past the Amen break and the other great "ready made drum loops" of history - how about Acid? Lots of those 303 patterns are random, or semi-random. The pattern isn't what's important in the track, or the performance. The 303 is burbling out the same pattern, while the musician experimenting with sound design, is playing the filter and envelope, playing other drum machines and synths, and making a compelling whole.

"But ma composition!" So? Beethoven composed the MIDI, but you don't get to hear it until a room full of other minds and muscles and instruments - whom Beethoven doesn't control - brings the MIDI to life.

You are always watching the computer play the video game. It just invites you to have input over very specific elements of the experience. Perhaps you're thinking of coding a game from scratch, and then playing it. Or coding a DAW.

It's all decision-making, and deciding where to give up control. Even the Aphex Twin/Squarepusher/liquid d&b drum programming pissing contest stuff is decision making. (Don't get me wrong, I love that stuff. But I will never program drums like that, because I cba.)

EdGrip
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20 Feb 2020

One chaos/control convergence I enjoy is making - one way or another - semi-chaotic sounds, and then snipping the best/most compelling/most surprising bits and pieces out of the chaos and working with them.

I never got into metal, beyond Metallica - especially the more complex and/or shouty-screamy stuff. It always just felt like pantomime angerz and emotionz, but weirdly empty of actual emotions. Like punk if punk was joyless and leaden.

I'm sure I'm wrong. :)

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dioxide
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20 Feb 2020

The new Player is a poor device. Randomisation can be fun, and Redrum and Matrix have been capable of this for almost 20 years. That's longer than some people in this forum have been alive.

My main genre is acid and some of that uses randomisation as a starting point. It's usually a starting point though, and something that you need to control and edit into something useable.

I need to be able to edit things not just twist a knob to get another variation. For that I have Cmd-R on Redrum or Matrix. That feature already exists. The new device is like divination or a Jackson Pollock painting. A perfectly valid way to work but unlikely to get you the results you need 99.9% of the time.

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chimp_spanner
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20 Feb 2020

EdGrip wrote:
20 Feb 2020
One chaos/control convergence I enjoy is making - one way or another - semi-chaotic sounds, and then snipping the best/most compelling/most surprising bits and pieces out of the chaos and working with them.

I never got into metal, beyond Metallica - especially the more complex and/or shouty-screamy stuff. It always just felt like pantomime angerz and emotionz, but weirdly empty of actual emotions. Like punk if punk was joyless and leaden.

I'm sure I'm wrong. :)
I guess Metal is (or can be) more about energy than emotion? Like, when it tries to sound aNgErY, that's when I find it a bit cheesy/cringe. But when it's like a sense-assault/overload or has something interesting or satisfying to listen to, then I'm all about it. Car Bomb, Meshuggah, Loathe, Gojira. They're "cool" (IMO). Straight up metuuuuul, not so much my bag!

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lowtom
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20 Feb 2020

I believe some people are missing the point in having some imperfect fun when making music.
I've been on the other side where I made everything from scratch, up to the point where I was obsessed of owning every bit of process and had to make my own groove machine in Reaktor to keep my mind calm.
This perfectionist and control obsessed mindset led me to the moment when I hated everything in the process of music making and almost dropped it.

Then I felt in love in randomness. I like to generate ideas randomly with the power of machines we have (personal computers) and choose the best ones. It reminds a little of create digging back when I was a DJ. I choose only best ideas or those that I can alter a little bit to make them fit into desired composition.

I think BeatMap is nice random idea generator. I already found use for it in my live setup.
As I'm mostly working inside Reason with pattern devices, I will definitely feed DrumSeq and Sequences players with whatever output BeatMap will generate.
:reason: :refill: :re:

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Creativemind
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20 Feb 2020

MattiasHG wrote:
20 Feb 2020

We released Reason 11 five months ago, it included a lot of improvements for the DAW users
Sorry But 6 features isn't a lot for a major update at £100-110. It's a third the software price and those features weren't exactly thorough or were quite basicly implemented as well.

Where were the multiple curve types for both the automation and crossfades? Where were the note displays on the notes and piano keys in the midi editor and the one of the main things I wanted with the showing of the midi notes wasn't just to see which midi notes were being played by the notes drawn in the sequencer but to see which note lane in the midi editor my midi controller key was pressing in the midi editor as well.
:reason:

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Ottostrom
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20 Feb 2020

lowtom wrote:
20 Feb 2020
I believe some people are missing the point in having some imperfect fun when making music.
I've been on the other side where I made everything from scratch, up to the point where I was obsessed of owning every bit of process and had to make my own groove machine in Reaktor to keep my mind calm.
This perfectionist and control obsessed mindset led me to the moment when I hated everything in the process of music making and almost dropped it.

Then I felt in love in randomness. I like to generate ideas randomly with the power of machines we have (personal computers) and choose the best ones. It reminds a little of create digging back when I was a DJ. I choose only best ideas or those that I can alter a little bit to make them fit into desired composition.

I think BeatMap is nice random idea generator. I already found use for it in my live setup.
As I'm mostly working inside Reason with pattern devices, I will definitely feed DrumSeq and Sequences players with whatever output BeatMap will generate.
I've had this mindset as well and it really doesn't help with making music.
Nowadays I have fun while doing it, and you can definitely hear that in the results.

Steedus
Competition Winner
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20 Feb 2020

reddust wrote:
20 Feb 2020
Steedus wrote:
20 Feb 2020
To the people crying about the sanctity of ‘I only want to make the beat as I hear it in my head’, I’m sorry but stop being so pretentious and go have some fun like the rest of us.
Haven''t you thought some people might have fun by creating their own beats? Come on, don't be so pretentious :lol:
It's more the outrage that such a device would dare be in existence in the first place. It's like some people see a device like this and have an existential crisis of "oh heavens, but what will become of my art *faints*". If you make your own beats, nothing's changed.

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guitfnky
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20 Feb 2020

chimp_spanner wrote:
20 Feb 2020
EdGrip wrote:
20 Feb 2020
One chaos/control convergence I enjoy is making - one way or another - semi-chaotic sounds, and then snipping the best/most compelling/most surprising bits and pieces out of the chaos and working with them.

I never got into metal, beyond Metallica - especially the more complex and/or shouty-screamy stuff. It always just felt like pantomime angerz and emotionz, but weirdly empty of actual emotions. Like punk if punk was joyless and leaden.

I'm sure I'm wrong. :)
I guess Metal is (or can be) more about energy than emotion? Like, when it tries to sound aNgErY, that's when I find it a bit cheesy/cringe. But when it's like a sense-assault/overload or has something interesting or satisfying to listen to, then I'm all about it. Car Bomb, Meshuggah, Loathe, Gojira. They're "cool" (IMO). Straight up metuuuuul, not so much my bag!
it's refreshing to know there are others who've come to a similar place with appreciation, even though we're from different backgrounds. I grew up loving the more artsy angles of alt rock, punk rock, and a bit of metal, I guess. for a long time I too turned up my nose at anything electronic, because "all you have to do is push some buttons". it took a long time, but eventually I bought an electronic album (Fischerspooner's #1, if you must know), and was blown away by how intricate, chaotic, and beautiful it could be. that was about when I realized it doesn't matter how you're making your music--the decisions you make along the way are what make it either 'good', 'bad', or somewhere in between.

I'm with you on straight "metal" though. it seemed more pretentious and obsessed with image than anything else. it's also why I still can't listen to a lot of classic prog to this day, even though modern prog is by far my favorite. but for me, it's always been about the emotional journey than the technical ability--that's never really impresssed me too much. but if you can build something huge out of a seedling that's tiny and beautiful...that speaks to me. that's what good prog is, to me; a sense of scale, and taking the listener on a journey through different emotions.


incidentally, I listened to a bit of what you came up with using the new player, and could immediately hear some of your prog background influence in even that 'generated' beat. the constant ride or crash (or open hat?) that kept the pulse going stuck out to me (in a very cool way).

as far as using generative or assisting tools, it's all in the decisionmaking I mentioned earlier. if they add something weird, unexpected, and most importantly something that sounds *good*, then who can argue with the results? I work similarly to you and reddust, I think, in that regard. I'll reach for them and see what happens, but ultimately, it's my ears that make the final decision.

anyhoo, I'm rambling now. time to go make some music. :D
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

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miscend
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20 Feb 2020

dioxide wrote:
20 Feb 2020
The new Player is a poor device. Randomisation can be fun, and Redrum and Matrix have been capable of this for almost 20 years. That's longer than some people in this forum have been alive.

My main genre is acid and some of that uses randomisation as a starting point. It's usually a starting point though, and something that you need to control and edit into something useable.

I need to be able to edit things not just twist a knob to get another variation. For that I have Cmd-R on Redrum or Matrix. That feature already exists. The new device is like divination or a Jackson Pollock painting. A perfectly valid way to work but unlikely to get you the results you need 99.9% of the time.
I've not found the CMD-R random function to musically useful. I'm sure you can print the midi output of Beat Map to the sequencer for finer editing? AFAIK Beat Map doesn't use randomisation, it uses an algorithm that's tuned for drums, so the results should be much more useful.

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Jagwah
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20 Feb 2020

MattiasHG wrote:
20 Feb 2020
...we're doing things that will definitely make the core Reason DAW users very happy. :)
Happy tears!

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