The Echo in Reason 11 sounds different ??? Bug?

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seqoi
Posts: 378
Joined: 12 Aug 2017

Post 27 Nov 2019

Tell me i am wrong. Please load this patch in The Echo if you have reason 9 or 10. Feed short drums in it like 909 and 808 RimShot. Kepp paying attention on decaying delay, how they are (in lack of better description), murky, dark-ish and faded out. (in a good way).

Save project.

Load project in 11. Try to feed it now. Listen carefully feedback as it starting to fade/filter out...It is sounding MUCH different in a bad way. Decaying delays are completely different like they are loosing way too much sync then in Reason 9 or 10 causing all my projects i did over years - to sound different... :shock:

Just tell me i am wrong and i am doing something weird but it's not sounding same here...this for me is unacceptable...Why would they make device different sounding after so many years.
TheEcho-Patch.zip
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ShelLuser
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Post 27 Nov 2019

Hmm.. first, no offense, but that's definitely not a favorite preset of mine ;) The initial delay makes it kind of awkward to play this, at least for me.

Anyway, I loaded up Kong, then this patch and I picked the Classic 808v3 as my Kong patch. I don't have Reason 11 (anymore) so I can't compare but something did get my attention.. When I play the BD Tone 5 I don't hear any dark-ish or murky sounds. A rather bright and in my opinion somewhat unnatural sound. However, when I try a higher pitched sound (in my example the hi-hats or LoTom Cong) then I do get the effect you described.

Thing is: this does make me wonder what sounds you used with this preset and if those could have been of influence here?
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seqoi
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Post 27 Nov 2019

ShelLuser wrote:
27 Nov 2019
Hmm.. first, no offense, but that's definitely not a favorite preset of mine ;) The initial delay makes it kind of awkward to play this, at least for me.
Non taken but no offense to you - this is not thread about whether you like this preset or not. It's not intended to be anyone favorite preset. Purpose is to reveal difference in sound between different Reason versions. Do you like it or not that's not the issue here.

Or whether you would use it or not. Btw that preset is actually from Reason factory library. Maybe only tweaked just a little - feedback increased that's all. So don't judge me on that.

Since you don't have Reason 11 you can't help me. But thanks for your attribution i really mean it.

eh one more thing. Darkish, murky etc. that's just my subjective buzzwording (i am not native English so it's hard to me). Ignore that.

If you ever get access to R11 - it's all about does it sound different to previous version or not? In my case it sound VERY different.

reggie1979
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Post 27 Nov 2019

Unfortunately I don't have 11 so I can't do this. Hopefully some lovely chaps will do the comparison you asked and we can determine if there is a bug or not.

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selig
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Post 27 Nov 2019

How did you test?
I loaded your patch into R10 and used a simple kick from ReDrum (default kit), then exported the audio. Did the exact same thing in R11. Then loaded both audio files back into Reason and honestly cannot tell ANY difference between them at all.
But wait, you may ask: Do they cancel? No, because the patch uses Wobble and the LFO. But they come as close as one would expect to come considering the patch in question.

Observations: the "offset R" is at a triplet setting while the main delay is at a dotted 8th, so the two delays will never line up and will always sound "out of sync" IMO.

To answer your final question, no. Reason has never changed the way any device sounds over the years (without providing a "compatibility" switch or similar), a hallmark of their approach and something they go out of their way to enforce even on Rack Extensions from third party developers.
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reggie1979
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Post 27 Nov 2019

I might be picking up 11 today, I have a 90 buck GC coupon and then I can test.

Steedus
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Post 27 Nov 2019

I think Mattias said something about them having to re-work some older code to get things working in the new Rack, although he seemed to suggest this was more for the non-RE devices (which I believe The Echo is an early RE), but I suppose it's possible during all that some minor thing changed to affect the sound of that device?

seqoi
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Joined: 12 Aug 2017

Post 27 Nov 2019

Selig i am not speaking about phase cancelling. I am aware of that. Forgive me my english is not first language. Let me try to explain again. Run Reason 10.

Example. Load clean session. Add Echo to FX Return. Load my Patch into it. Now add Redrum into session. Add kick/rimshot only to step 1. Now in redrum change 16 steps from 32.

Press play. Your kick should play every second bar (since we increased steps from 16 to 32). I intentionally increased steps from 16 to 32 so that we can hear/test out not initial sound od the Echo but that decaying sound.

Ok so now while kick is playing enable your Send 1 in main mixer and set it to -2dB. So now every time Kick play in, it will feed into aux/and The Echo. See my screenshot.

Now listen not initial sound of the Echo. Listen these sounds which are (sorry it's hard to me to explain) not initial but rather decaying ones. Like ones which should go into self oscillation so to speak. The ones which appear when Redrum comes to steps from 16 to 32. I am speaking about sounds which gradually appear in the Echo after few two or three initial seconds passed by.

Now remember how these are sounding. Save patch. Load it into 11.

They are sounding way different and washed out in 11. Like filters in Echo in V11 are different and they spread and goes out of sync in different timing when compared to Reason 9 and 10.

Steedus thanks that could be a hint.

I will try to make some sound samples but i won't be able to do them for at least 13 days since i just moved on the road.
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seqoi
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Post 28 Nov 2019

And lastly please guys - i am not claiming anything revolutional i just wanted to ask here for help in confirmation. Remember it could be i am doing something terribly wrong and it's user error case. It's just that i noticed my projects sound different in R11 and i pinpointed it to Echo Feedback and timings. Whic for me sounds different in R11

Talk soon (i won't be able to answer maybe)

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Boombastix
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Post 28 Nov 2019

Steedus wrote:
27 Nov 2019
I think Mattias said something about them having to re-work some older code to get things working in the new Rack, although he seemed to suggest this was more for the non-RE devices (which I believe The Echo is an early RE), but I suppose it's possible during all that some minor thing changed to affect the sound of that device?
Yep, they said old code was re-worked and they had to fix a bug in Kong just recently. So, even if this one is not a bug, keep your eyes open we have to assume there can be something in any old device.
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selig
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Post 28 Nov 2019

seqoi wrote:
28 Nov 2019
And lastly please guys - i am not claiming anything revolutional i just wanted to ask here for help in confirmation. Remember it could be i am doing something terribly wrong and it's user error case. It's just that i noticed my projects sound different in R11 and i pinpointed it to Echo Feedback and timings. Whic for me sounds different in R11

Talk soon (i won't be able to answer maybe)
Best to export both R10 and R11 versions as audio, then anyone here can compare the two files and see if they really are different.
That's what I did, and didn't notice anything. If you're actually talking about the very softest part of the decay, then not sure how it could make your songs sound different, since that part of the decay would be masked by just about everything else.
Even so, I didn't notice any difference on the decay…
Happy to repeat my test if you have additional information to add, but otherwise things sound the same when I did the test, and comparing the audio files confirmed this.
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miscend
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Post 28 Nov 2019

I don't have access to Reason 11 maybe you can share some audio for those of us still on 10?

seqoi
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Post 29 Nov 2019

selig wrote:
28 Nov 2019

Best to export both R10 and R11 versions as audio, then anyone here can compare the two files and see if they really are different.
That's what I did, and didn't notice anything. If you're actually talking about the very softest part of the decay, then not sure how it could make your songs sound different, since that part of the decay would be masked by just about everything else.
Even so, I didn't notice any difference on the decay…
Happy to repeat my test if you have additional information to add, but otherwise things sound the same when I did the test, and comparing the audio files confirmed this.
Thank you for your report. Can you post samples? Asking because it won't be at least 11 days until i could post samples. And again focus not on initial resulting delays from feedback (these sounds right). Focus on what comes after initial delay.

I would once again appreciate if people refrain from judging this specific preset and asking me how would i hear this or that. It's not the point. I mean if i tell you that i hear difference i get the impression that you are trying convincing me that i should not because it's low in volume. This is not cool. When you say me i should not hear difference because sound is same i can understand that, that was my inital question and issue.

But when you try to convince me i should not hear it because it's masked yadayada it's not cool because i need then to describe you my workflow and to present you my health document and whatnot.

I mean what if i told you that i am automating aux send and relying on those dispersed sound and that i even increase gain on them by automating volume etc.etc. I mean there is a lot of scenarios where i would need to hear or increase these sounds especially when i am making FX sounds. Dub techno and other dub genres is all about making cool oscillating delays etc. Many genres use it.

Long story short - there is no right or wrong way to make music and judging this preset, or how should it be noticeable or not is NOT the point of this thread. Please once again.

exxx
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Post 29 Nov 2019

What I say is strange, but loading the same patch from a different daw will sound much cleaner.

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Loque
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Post 29 Nov 2019

exxx wrote:
29 Nov 2019
What I say is strange, but loading the same patch from a different daw will sound much cleaner.
Yes. It sounds strange...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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selig
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Post 29 Nov 2019

seqoi wrote:
29 Nov 2019
…Long story short - there is no right or wrong way to make music and judging this preset, or how should it be noticeable or not is NOT the point of this thread. Please once again.
Apologies if I somehow offended with my response, just tying to help.
Again, best if you could post audio examples, especially of exactly how you're using this and hearing the difference (which I didn't get from your initial post). Lots of folks here are happy to help!
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seqoi
Posts: 378
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Post 30 Nov 2019

selig wrote:
29 Nov 2019
Apologies if I somehow offended with my response, just tying to help.
Again, best if you could post audio examples, especially of exactly how you're using this and hearing the difference (which I didn't get from your initial post). Lots of folks here are happy to help!
Thank you you are very helpful. No ofence taken i just wanted to try to tell other not to derail thread in to something unrelated. I'll try to post more in a week after i get back.

Like i said maybe i am wrong. Not thinking that i am wrong in sound difference, it is different (for me) but maybe i am doing something weird in R11.

Talk soon have a great weekend.

Btw i just ordered another R11 Suite (for another location, multiple computer which need to work at the same time). I feel like a child with new toys. Weeeeee :D

chaosroyale
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Post 01 Dec 2019

You understand what a null test is? It is a scientific and objective way to prove what you are saying.

If what you say is true, it will be easy to do a null test and show the results on Reasontalk.

Until then, your posts are completely worthless and nobody should believe anything you say.

*I guarantee this joker will not do a null test.
exxx wrote:
29 Nov 2019
What I say is strange, but loading the same patch from a different daw will sound much cleaner.

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Loque
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Post 01 Dec 2019

chaosroyale wrote:
01 Dec 2019
You understand what a null test is? It is a scientific and objective way to prove what you are saying.

If what you say is true, it will be easy to do a null test and show the results on Reasontalk.

Until then, your posts are completely worthless and nobody should believe anything you say.

*I guarantee this joker will not do a null test.
exxx wrote:
29 Nov 2019
What I say is strange, but loading the same patch from a different daw will sound much cleaner.
Check the users post and you will notice it seem to be a troll...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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selig
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Post 01 Dec 2019

Just wanted to be fair, so I repeated all the tests and made sure to let the feedback totally die out. I did two versions, one with the original preset for The Echo, and a second with no modulation (wobble and LFO). I did the "no mod" version so I could perform a null test.
Again as before, I'm hearing no difference. And this time since I had a "no mod" version, the null test was perfect. As far as I'm concerned there's absolutely no difference between The Echo in version 10 and version 11.
Selig Audio, LLC

reggie1979
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Post 01 Dec 2019

Yeah, I don't think the person is trolling in any way, but it may be hard to prove. Sorry to all..............

seqoi
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Post 02 Dec 2019

What the hell ? Sorry guys, whoever seems i am trolling feel free to mute me. To those which insinuate i am trolling - get some life instead of spending and correcting people on online forums. Nice way to discredit and marginalize my efforts to solve my issues. Loque, fact that i am not agreeing with you in past does not make me or my issues "troll". Thanks.

Muted for second time and this time permanent. Not nice. If you think am trolling why do you post in my thread about issues? That's really weird behavior. You follow people which you claim are trolls.

You guys attacked me when :
- i posted about Red Rock oversampling issues (which developer later confirmed and fixed - it's there in their changelog),
- and most of people here attacked me when i pointed out Red Rock is stealing graphical interfaces on some of his products. I posted clear examples and that was absolutely true and later was changed by developer - he himself changed graphical interfaces on all his creations i reported here. So you see after all your mud i had to carry on my back - developer himself get their stuff together and fixed it. Thanks for that.

If you see my history you will see i repeat this constantly. Whenever i question or (god forbid) criticize something in Reason, people attack me and tell me i am troll. My only logical explanation is that these people are fairly young and they can't act their behavior right.

Selig - thanks for your time. I am aware anyone time spent is actually a big FAVOR to me for free. Also your results comes with heavy weight since you are also a developer (i have all your products apart from Selig Coloring EQ which i simply don't find fit my workflow). So your results comes with weight. Thanks again.

I will still check my findings when i get home from Budapest. I will definitely post here.

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avasopht
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Post 02 Dec 2019

Just a thought, but there could be a difference in how Reason is playing back live and exporting, resulting in the output showing no differences while it could be different while played back live.

Also check to make sure you have the same settings in both (sample rate, whether plugin render matches audio interface buffer size, default project has same mixer settings such as whether the MBC is switched on).

See if you can make a clear recording of both versions.
---

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Loque
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Post 02 Dec 2019

seqoi wrote:
02 Dec 2019
What the hell ? Sorry guys, whoever seems i am trolling feel free to mute me. To those which insinuate i am trolling - get some life instead of spending and correcting people on online forums. Nice way to discredit and marginalize my efforts to solve my issues. Loque, fact that i am not agreeing with you in past does not make me or my issues "troll". Thanks.
As i said in the past, you seem to have some "problems"...I (and others) never talked to you and about you...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

seqoi
Posts: 378
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Post 02 Dec 2019

avasopht wrote:
02 Dec 2019
Just a thought, but there could be a difference in how Reason is playing back live and exporting, resulting in the output showing no differences while it could be different while played back live.

Also check to make sure you have the same settings in both (sample rate, whether plugin render matches audio interface buffer size, default project has same mixer settings such as whether the MBC is switched on).

See if you can make a clear recording of both versions.
Thanks. Good points. My sample rate is always same. On "live" mixing and on exporting. It's always 44khz. Today when googling about my issue i stumped on to something which actually was not mentioned at all in this thread (but luckily for me i was being called a troll for expressing my issues). I can't test until i get home.

But apparently Reason 11 (and possibly 10.4 i can't recall) have new setting in Preferences which can improve VST performance but can alter sound and it timings. I have completely forgot for that change in Reason preferences. It's under Reason Audio preferences. Apparently it can cause different sound and to tell you honestly i am not sure did i switched that on or maybe this is ON by default in R11 installation? But i swear i haven't altered anything in Reason preferences. So maybe this new setting is resulting that i hear different sound.

I want to repeat that i am NOT sure is this what is causing what i reported above (different timings/sync in sound when compare R10 to R11) but i will check it out once when i get back. Thanks again.

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