Audio Output Meter (bottom bar) VS. VU Big Meter (Top in The Rack)

[Busta US]

Can someone please explain to me the difference between those 2 ? The Output Meter in the bottom bar is not clipping, I've put a Limiter with a ceiling. But the Big VU Meter above the mastering chain is clipping 4 dbs. But if I put a ceiling on the Limiter so that the big meter stays at 0db my song sounds low.

Thanks for any help guys

[selig]

Can someone please explain to me the difference between those 2 ? The Output Meter in the bottom bar is not clipping, I've put a Limiter with a ceiling. But the Big VU Meter above the mastering chain is clipping 4 dbs. But if I put a ceiling on the Limiter so that the big meter stays at 0db my song sounds low.

Thanks for any help guys

Big Meter is last, and so more dependable IMO.
How do you know it's clipping by 4dB, there are only clip lights on the Big Meter, with no indication of the amount of clipping.
As for your other questions, a song that's clipping is doing "hard limiting", so while it will distort harshly it will also be "louder".
Where are you inserting the limiter, and how is it set (and what limiter are you using)?

The main difference between the two is the "Master Meter" (bottom right on Big Mixer) is showing the "Master Output" of the mixer, while the Big Meter is showing the Hardware Interface output (final output of all of Reason). Thus, if you insert a limiter between the Master Output jacks and the Hardware Interface jacks, the Master Meter will know this and cease showing clipping (because it is no longer the last device in the signal path). I work this way, and that's why I rely on the Big Meter as the last word on output levels. Make sense?

[Djstarski]

The meter your probably looking at it the VU metering type which give you average volume. That meter will go into the red . The other metering type is peak . When you lowered the average meter your track will sound low . Plus 3 dB on the VU meter is not a bad thing necessarily. This can be confusing when you don’t understand .

[Busta US]

Can someone please explain to me the difference between those 2 ? The Output Meter in the bottom bar is not clipping, I've put a Limiter with a ceiling. But the Big VU Meter above the mastering chain is clipping 4 dbs. But if I put a ceiling on the Limiter so that the big meter stays at 0db my song sounds low.

Thanks for any help guys

Big Meter is last, and so more dependable IMO.
How do you know it's clipping by 4dB, there are only clip lights on the Big Meter, with no indication of the amount of clipping.
As for your other questions, a song that's clipping is doing "hard limiting", so while it will distort harshly it will also be "louder".
Where are you inserting the limiter, and how is it set (and what limiter are you using)?

The main difference between the two is the "Master Meter" (bottom right on Big Mixer) is showing the "Master Output" of the mixer, while the Big Meter is showing the Hardware Interface output (final output of all of Reason). Thus, if you insert a limiter between the Master Output jacks and the Hardware Interface jacks, the Master Meter will know this and cease showing clipping (because it is no longer the last device in the signal path). I work this way, and that's why I rely on the Big Meter as the last word on output levels. Make sense?

Selig! So happy you took your time to answer this as I am also using your Selig Gain in the master Have a look at the Big VU meter at the top, it's going on the red to even +6dbs sometimes, but your Selig Gain sais Im at 0, and the Audio Output Meter is not going in the red

Untitled6.jpg (380.97 KiB) Viewed 2433 times

[Busta US]

The meter your probably looking at it the VU metering type which give you average volume. That meter will go into the red . The other metering type is peak . When you lowered the average meter your track will sound low . Plus 3 dB on the VU meter is not a bad thing necessarily. This can be confusing when you don’t understand .

Aaah OK I see thank you so much for the info So I should click on "Peak" instead on the VU meter, which is what I just did and it is at 0 red, does that mean it's clipping? Or it just means it's at 0db?

[Busta US]

Thus, if you insert a limiter between the Master Output jacks and the Hardware Interface jacks, the Master Meter will know this and cease showing clipping (because it is no longer the last device in the signal path). I work this way, and that's why I rely on the Big Meter as the last word on output levels. Make sense?

Makes totally sense. But I'm afraid I'm still not sure how to insert the limiter like you described. Does my illustration show what you describe? I put the limiter at the end of the master chain basically. Is that what you mean?

[Djstarski]

The meter your probably looking at it the VU metering type which give you average volume. That meter will go into the red . The other metering type is peak . When you lowered the average meter your track will sound low . Plus 3 dB on the VU meter is not a bad thing necessarily. This can be confusing when you don’t understand .

Aaah OK I see thank you so much for the info So I should click on "Peak" instead on the VU meter, which is what I just did and it is at 0 red, does that mean it's clipping? Or it just means it's at 0db?

Yes , the red LED lights to the far right are clip indicators. Which can mean your track may be going over the 0 dB by a few dB , but it won’t show you by how much your going over by . Selig gain Rack Extension will let you know . Hope this helps

[Busta US]

Aaah OK I see thank you so much for the info So I should click on "Peak" instead on the VU meter, which is what I just did and it is at 0 red, does that mean it's clipping? Or it just means it's at 0db?

Yes , the red LED lights to the far right are clip indicators. Which can mean your track may be going over the 0 dB by a few dB , but it won’t show you by how much your going over by . Selig gain Rack Extension will let you know . Hope this helps

OK gotchu thank you for the info. The weird thing is that as you can see in the illustration selig gain is showing me 00 peak and not over while the Peak Meter is touching the red. Is is the way I set things up maybe ?

EDIT: I rewired everything and nothing is peaking anymore, it was actually a mess in the master chain but I only showed the first few racks

[Djstarski]

Yes , the red LED lights to the far right are clip indicators. Which can mean your track may be going over the 0 dB by a few dB , but it won’t show you by how much your going over by . Selig gain Rack Extension will let you know . Hope this helps

OK gotchu thank you for the info. The weird thing is that as you can see in the illustration selig gain is showing me 00 peak and not over while the Peak Meter is touching the red. Is is the way I set things up maybe ?

EDIT: I rewired everything and nothing is peaking anymore, it was actually a mess in the master chain but I only showed the first few racks

I'm glad you was able too solve your problem .

[selig]

Selig! So happy you took your time to answer this as I am also using your Selig Gain in the master Have a look at the Big VU meter at the top, it's going on the red to even +6dbs sometimes, but your Selig Gain sais Im at 0, and the Audio Output Meter is not going in the red

OK, there's a little crazy stuff happening in this setup. You've lowered your ceiling with Krotos, then raised it right back up again with Selig Gain. General rule of thumb is to have your limiter as absolute LAST in the signal path. This is especially true if adding dither with your limiter, as once you've added dither it's important no further processing of any kind should take place.

Understanding signal flow is important too, which is why I put my limiter between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface. This is because the Master Fader comes AFTER the Master Inserts, so if you put a limiter with dither in the inserts you can no longer use the Master Fader to fade out etc.

Also, a common mistake is to see red LEDs in the meter and assume this means "clipping". On the Big Meter you can adjust "VU Offset" and remove the red LEDs if they bother you, it's a user adjustable setting. Remember that VU is an "average" level, not an absolute level as Peak is. The average level of a signal can be as much as 20 dB or MORE below the peak level. So even when VU shows a relatively low level, the actual (peak) level may be MUCH higher.

My approach is to use VU + Peak mode exclusively so I can see BOTH average and instantaneous level. Additionally, the difference between VU and Peak level is called the Crest Factor, and is a very good indication of loudness. When I export from Reason I tend to set my levels so the peak is just below 0dBFS (Clipping), and the average/VU is around -12dBFS or so. If mixing a pure acoustic recording I'll shoot for a higher crest factor (higher than 12dB), and if mixing a very aggressive type track I'll go lower (6-9dB) for a totally crushed sound.

For your setup, try leaving the ceiling just below 0dB, maybe even just -0.5dB, then get rid of the Selig Gain that's AFTER the limiter. Instead, use the Selig Gain before the limiter to determine the level coming into the limiter (I aim for peaks around -6 to -3dBFS). That way if you ever need to send your track to a mastering engineer, you can bypass your limiter and you'll have a mix that is safely below 0dBFS/clipping and within the levels most mastering engineers request, and all without having to make ANY adjustments to your levels. Hopefully this all makes sense, but please ask for clarification on any point if I'm not being clear or speaking too much jargon!

[Busta US]

Selig! So happy you took your time to answer this as I am also using your Selig Gain in the master Have a look at the Big VU meter at the top, it's going on the red to even +6dbs sometimes, but your Selig Gain sais Im at 0, and the Audio Output Meter is not going in the red

OK, there's a little crazy stuff happening in this setup. You've lowered your ceiling with Krotos, then raised it right back up again with Selig Gain. General rule of thumb is to have your limiter as absolute LAST in the signal path. This is especially true if adding dither with your limiter, as once you've added dither it's important no further processing of any kind should take place.

Understanding signal flow is important too, which is why I put my limiter between the Master Outputs and the Hardware Interface. This is because the Master Fader comes AFTER the Master Inserts, so if you put a limiter with dither in the inserts you can no longer use the Master Fader to fade out etc.

Also, a common mistake is to see red LEDs in the meter and assume this means "clipping". On the Big Meter you can adjust "VU Offset" and remove the red LEDs if they bother you, it's a user adjustable setting. Remember that VU is an "average" level, not an absolute level as Peak is. The average level of a signal can be as much as 20 dB or MORE below the peak level. So even when VU shows a relatively low level, the actual (peak) level may be MUCH higher.

My approach is to use VU + Peak mode exclusively so I can see BOTH average and instantaneous level. Additionally, the difference between VU and Peak level is called the Crest Factor, and is a very good indication of loudness. When I export from Reason I tend to set my levels so the peak is just below 0dBFS (Clipping), and the average/VU is around -12dBFS or so. If mixing a pure acoustic recording I'll shoot for a higher crest factor (higher than 12dB), and if mixing a very aggressive type track I'll go lower (6-9dB) for a totally crushed sound.

For your setup, try leaving the ceiling just below 0dB, maybe even just -0.5dB, then get rid of the Selig Gain that's AFTER the limiter. Instead, use the Selig Gain before the limiter to determine the level coming into the limiter (I aim for peaks around -6 to -3dBFS). That way if you ever need to send your track to a mastering engineer, you can bypass your limiter and you'll have a mix that is safely below 0dBFS/clipping and within the levels most mastering engineers request, and all without having to make ANY adjustments to your levels. Hopefully this all makes sense, but please ask for clarification on any point if I'm not being clear or speaking too much jargon!

I can't thank you enough for your in-depth explanation <3333

I'm going to have to read your great explanation several times in order to get all that Reason jargon

But regarding your last paragraph, do you think this is a "healthier" setup ? Please assure me I am not clipping haha (btw the filter on the top of the master is meant for the Mixer's Bus Compressor's external sidechain, I dunno that bus compressor is great but for my heavy bass music I needed a low-pass filter to keep some of the bass uncompressed, but regardless the Bus Compressor is turned off for this song I just wasn't feeling it)

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PS : (Ok regarding VU/PEAK I thought u meant VU + Peak together but you did write "exclusively" so I'm assuming you meant you use VU only, check the signal, and then use "peak", and check the signal)

[selig]

Yes, that looks better - the clip lights are probably from something you did earlier. Try clearing/resetting them to make sure there is no longer any clipping (there shouldn't be with this setup unless your master fader is above unity).

[chaosroyale]

Hey mate, quick technical heads up: If you are trying to stop the compressor overreacting to bass-heavy music, you need a HIGH-PASS filter for your sidechain. A low pass will actually make it worse, because there will be comparatively more low frequencies in the sidechain.

Try using a gentle HP filter (say 6 or 12dB per octave) around 200Hz and see how that works for you. You can use one of the free RE filters or even just stick the MCLass EQ low-shelf on -18dB with minimum Q (*important) for a similar effect.

a HP knob on the sidechain is common on VST comps, and is something Reason Studios really needs to add to the Master Buss and the plugin. It's an easy thing to do and speeds up workflow dramatically. Right now it is an ugly mess implementing this on the Master Buss, and as many threads here show, lots of users can't figure it out without introducing latency or feedback etc.

But hey, it wouldn't be Reason without the tedious and uneccessary workarounds, right?

low-pass filter

[selig]

Hey mate, quick technical heads up: If you are trying to stop the compressor overreacting to bass-heavy music, you need a HIGH-PASS filter for your sidechain.

Great catch!

Here's how I setup my master insert and mastering chain (3 images):

[Busta US]

Yes, that looks better - the clip lights are probably from something you did earlier. Try clearing/resetting them to make sure there is no longer any clipping (there shouldn't be with this setup unless your master fader is above unity).

The clipping that you see is everytime the Kick hits, does that mean I should lower the kick ? I like the way it sounds as it is when I reduce it until there is no peaking it sounds punchless and lost in the mix

[Busta US]

Hey mate, quick technical heads up: If you are trying to stop the compressor overreacting to bass-heavy music, you need a HIGH-PASS filter for your sidechain. A low pass will actually make it worse, because there will be comparatively more low frequencies in the sidechain.

Try using a gentle HP filter (say 6 or 12dB per octave) around 200Hz and see how that works for you. You can use one of the free RE filters or even just stick the MCLass EQ low-shelf on -18dB with minimum Q (*important) for a similar effect.

a HP knob on the sidechain is common on VST comps, and is something Reason Studios really needs to add to the Master Buss and the plugin. It's an easy thing to do and speeds up workflow dramatically. Right now it is an ugly mess implementing this on the Master Buss, and as many threads here show, lots of users can't figure it out without introducing latency or feedback etc.

But hey, it wouldn't be Reason without the tedious and uneccessary workarounds, right?

low-pass filter

Oh yes that's true thx for noticing this!! I bypassed it on this specific setting but I'll make sure it's on high pass mode from now on

Yes I see what you mean, I had to look up how to do that on Reason and I was lucky to stumble upon a tutorial about this technique

[Busta US]

OK, sometimes all you need is a fresh goodnight sleep to figure things out . I lowered Selig Gain to -4.8db and nothing is clipping anymore, even without the Limiter.

Thanks again so much for your help <3

[chaosroyale]

For troublesome peaks with kicks, here is a quick thing that can help in a lot of cases -

Put a soft clipper like the Reason Maximizer or the Venn audio FreeClip VST on the Kick channel individually, *do not actually use the limiter, just the clipper* and work with the gain before and after so that it just shaves off a tiny bit of the peak without changing the overall sound. Try 1 or 2 dB of clipping for starters. This will reduce peak levels and clipping on the master Buss.

Note; it will also have an effect on peak compressors on the drum buss after the kick, so pay attention to the sound there too, but in most cases this is a pretty safe technique, in fact it may even improve your drum buss compression because the comp does not over react to the kick each time.

OK, sometimes all you need is a fresh goodnight sleep to figure things out . I lowered Selig Gain to -4.8db and nothing is clipping anymore, even without the Limiter.

Thanks again so much for your help <3

[Busta US]

For troublesome peaks with kicks, here is a quick thing that can help in a lot of cases -

Put a soft clipper like the Reason Maximizer or the Venn audio FreeClip VST on the Kick channel individually, *do not actually use the limiter, just the clipper* and work with the gain before and after so that it just shaves off a tiny bit of the peak without changing the overall sound. Try 1 or 2 dB of clipping for starters. This will reduce peak levels and clipping on the master Buss.

Note; it will also have an effect on peak compressors on the drum buss after the kick, so pay attention to the sound there too, but in most cases this is a pretty safe technique, in fact it may even improve your drum buss compression because the comp does not over react to the kick each time.

OK, sometimes all you need is a fresh goodnight sleep to figure things out . I lowered Selig Gain to -4.8db and nothing is clipping anymore, even without the Limiter.

Thanks again so much for your help <3

Thank you so much for the tip! I'll definitely give that a try