Anyone still find subtractor irreplaceable?

[enossified]

Europa and others have the same bugs. Only Thor is clean!

Monotone also has the proper monophonic analog EG retriggering behavior. After Thor got it right, I was disappointed that Europa didn't. It's amazing how few softsynths do this right. None of the ones in Logic do it correctly, yet all of u-He's synths do, even the free Tyrell. In Ableton Live, only Analog does it correctly. Etc.

[Harmen]

and you can even take the screws out of this one,..

[Mataya]

Europa and others have the same bugs. Only Thor is clean!

Monotone also has the proper monophonic analog EG retriggering behavior. After Thor got it right, I was disappointed that Europa didn't. It's amazing how few softsynths do this right. None of the ones in Logic do it correctly, yet all of u-He's synths do, even the free Tyrell. In Ableton Live, only Analog does it correctly. Etc.

What happens with envelopes in those synth's? I couldn't understand earlier. Release never stops the sound if it's long or what?

tx
M

[Loque]

Monotone also has the proper monophonic analog EG retriggering behavior. After Thor got it right, I was disappointed that Europa didn't. It's amazing how few softsynths do this right. None of the ones in Logic do it correctly, yet all of u-He's synths do, even the free Tyrell. In Ableton Live, only Analog does it correctly. Etc.

What happens with envelopes in those synth's? I couldn't understand earlier. Release never stops the sound if it's long or what?

tx
M

The envelops do not fully reset to 0. I created once a ticket for Europa, because i wanted to use those nifty envelopes to control other things. I think the ticket creation is now nearly a year in the past. Never created one for Subtractor, because i do not have much hope...

[kinkujin]

I don't know about irreplaceable but being relatively new to Reason (in particular in the time I can dedicate) I start with Subtractor. Like others I find it great for bass. I like the layout, even I can understand it. I imagine I'll move on to other synths in the suite for most things, but once I understand the cpu demands I may end up returning to subtractor. It has aged well in my opinion.

[Mataya]

Got it. Thanks.

[WarStar]

Subtractor was always on my back burner production wise until not that long ago. Now for subs and 808s it's my go to. Watched a tutorial by Mode Audio for a nice 808 patch and now it's definitely my go-to. So clean and easy to control and the release works perfectly.

[Flandersh]

Subtractor was one of the reasons I upgraded to Reason 11, as it has a sound that battle many of my other VSTi's for given purposes (have yet to find a synth that can replace it). So to have it as a rack VST is awesome.

[Oquasec]

It's good for music. For those willing to learn all of reason you will actually be very occupied with the 3 starter synths.
Props did a very good job with the whole layout

[seqoi]

Subtractor is a very old softsynth but it can sound surprisingly solid in certain applications. It works particularly well for bass, even basic leads, and pads it can do a decent job. It definitely isn't the cleanest sounding synth. It has some of the qualities we used to associate with "bad" digital, aliasing, grainy etc, but that probably adds to some of its character.

+1000 Exactly my thoughts.

I still use malström and Subtractor most of my time despite owning all the latest bell and whistles.

[groggy1]

I was going to poke fun of the folks using subtractor, but then I realized my favorite go-to synth is Korg Legacy M1 (a pcm synth only a synthpop star from the 80s could love)

[Oquasec]

honestly subtractor is a lot like sytrus or something when you use the CV ports at the back.
Propellerhead made sure they made a great manual on the f1 section that shows what the controls are.
The CV system is one of the many timeless things I can think of in music production :]

[kinkujin]

"It's good for music."

HAHAHA Perfect!!!

[selig]

The envelops do not fully reset to 0.

That's a feature, not a bug…
Isn't this (non-zero reset) how every analog envelope works (and for a few decades how every synth worked), and isn't this the more desirable functionality?

I personally do not like a full reset to zero, especially on patches with long release, but maybe that's all the years I spent playing analog synths.

If no choice is given, I always prefer non-return to zero. But maybe there are times when one would prefer a return to zero envelope so ideally the options should probably be there for both functionalities.

[Loque]

The envelops do not fully reset to 0.

That's a feature, not a bug…
Isn't this (non-zero reset) how every analog envelope works (and for a few decades how every synth worked), and isn't this the more desirable functionality?

I personally do not like a full reset to zero, especially on patches with long release, but maybe that's all the years I spent playing analog synths.

If no choice is given, I always prefer non-return to zero. But maybe there are times when one would prefer a return to zero envelope so ideally the options should probably be there for both functionalities.

I wrote in my preceding post,that some would call this "analog"

Yea, might be ok, but not if you want to control something else with the envelope and there is still an audio open or a gate will not trigger. My workaround was to change the offset a little bit...

[xboix]

I use Subtractor much less since Monotone landed.

[selig]

That's a feature, not a bug…
Isn't this (non-zero reset) how every analog envelope works (and for a few decades how every synth worked), and isn't this the more desirable functionality?

I personally do not like a full reset to zero, especially on patches with long release, but maybe that's all the years I spent playing analog synths.

If no choice is given, I always prefer non-return to zero. But maybe there are times when one would prefer a return to zero envelope so ideally the options should probably be there for both functionalities.

I wrote in my preceding post,that some would call this "analog"

Yea, might be ok, but not if you want to control something else with the envelope and there is still an audio open or a gate will not trigger. My workaround was to change the offset a little bit...

Before we called it "analog" we just called it "the way envelopes work"…

The biggest issue for me, especially if using the envelope for other applications, is the huge potential discontinuity that can be created. For example, if the release stage is still very high when you receive another trigger, regardless of any time constant settings there will be an instant drop down to zero which creates a click or pop.
This would also be bad for ducking applications, so maybe I'm having a brain fart but I can't think of a situation where you would prefer a RTZ envelope - not sure I understood your example above.

[Loque]

I wrote in my preceding post,that some would call this "analog"

Yea, might be ok, but not if you want to control something else with the envelope and there is still an audio open or a gate will not trigger. My workaround was to change the offset a little bit...

Before we called it "analog" we just called it "the way envelopes work"…

The biggest issue for me, especially if using the envelope for other applications, is the huge potential discontinuity that can be created. For example, if the release stage is still very high when you receive another trigger, regardless of any time constant settings there will be an instant drop down to zero which creates a click or pop.
This would also be bad for ducking applications, so maybe I'm having a brain fart but I can't think of a situation where you would prefer a RTZ envelope - not sure I understood your example above.

I controlled a continuous oscillators loudness that always produced a sound and it never went to full silence.

Using the envelope as a gate wont work either.

Controlled fx won't go to full signal.

Now, if that is combined, the problems add themself and a sound becomes louder and stays forever. Than i switched to Thor and used its envelopes.

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

If they ever made a hardware Subtractor it would sell like hot cakes.

[Proboscis]

I use the default 'bass guitar' patch on almost everything, because it's a nice clean never-ending signal, and I often automate the pitch wheel to change notes so there's zero attack, creating a smooth and seamless low-end backdrop for whatever I lay on top of it.

[miscend]

[Mattvank]

Is it ,,normal´´ that the filter amount is never zero?
And in R11, Subtractors GUI looking now more HD or tricky me my eyes?

[Neo]

Still a fan, though I use MONOTONE more these days.
Subtractor Surely inspired by..

Capture.JPG (52.96 KiB) Viewed 1020 times

Tronam - It’s funny to hear you mention the Nord Lead during the Subtractor introduction. Fun fact, they were both coded by the same fellow, Peter Jubel. He’s still the main coding guru at Reason Studios to this day, behind most of the synths and algorithms like pitch correction and granular synthesis.

[selig]

Having said that, having recently purchased Legend, I think I may be using Subtractor less. Legend really is soooooooo good.

I haven’t heard a better-sounding traditional synth Rack Extension (or stock device) than The Legend. nothing comes close, IMO. Subtractor is better to use in the background, to augment other stuff, but if you need sounds that will hold up in center stage, The Legend is way more appropriate.

Legend is a Mini Moog model, right? If you want "traditional" Oberheim/Arp/Serge/Sequential etc sounds, Legend isn't going to give you acceptable results, right? Even among traditional synths, the sound pallet is wide…

[guitfnky]

I haven’t heard a better-sounding traditional synth Rack Extension (or stock device) than The Legend. nothing comes close, IMO. Subtractor is better to use in the background, to augment other stuff, but if you need sounds that will hold up in center stage, The Legend is way more appropriate.

Legend is a Mini Moog model, right? If you want "traditional" Oberheim/Arp/Serge/Sequential etc sounds, Legend isn't going to give you acceptable results, right? Even among traditional synths, the sound pallet is wide…

I’m very much a layman when it comes to synths, so when I say “traditional”, it may not mean what it does to someone more familiar. as such, I don’t know the answer to either of those questions. I meant in the very broad sense of typical “old school” synth designs, where they’re not trying to do a particularly modern take on anything (e.g. wavetables, weird filter/modulation options, etc.). I could be wrong, but it seems like both Legend and Subtractor fit into that category.