MusicRadar review of Reason 11

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PeterP
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Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

03 Oct 2019

This might be one of the first reviews popping up.

https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/reas ... -reason-11

Yonatan
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03 Oct 2019

Interesting they take the Scenic RE as a "pro" when it in fact only comes in Suite package.

dezma
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03 Oct 2019

The sequencer changes are wrapped up in 2 sentences, 1 of them being we will not use it anyway :puf_bigsmile:
Scrolling down, the article about the midi cat is way more interesting

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Loque
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03 Oct 2019

The resonance to the Reason Rack shows one thing IMO: They all used Reason in the past and they all loved it and appreciate it is coming back.

No RS need to deliver in the near future. From what i read, hires GUI, VSTs in the Reason Rack, better MIDI support. Than if they improve the sequencer ppls might want to start with a instrument directly in Reason and gamble around and may stay in Reason if they feel, that they can work in there.

I smell some sound packages coming with Reason inside to other DAWs, as long as RS finds a way to protect their intelectual property...
Reason12, Win10

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Boombastix
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03 Oct 2019

Loque wrote:
03 Oct 2019
The resonance to the Reason Rack shows one thing IMO: They all used Reason in the past and they all loved it and appreciate it is coming back.

No RS need to deliver in the near future. From what i read, hires GUI, VSTs in the Reason Rack, better MIDI support. Than if they improve the sequencer ppls might want to start with a instrument directly in Reason and gamble around and may stay in Reason if they feel, that they can work in there.

I smell some sound packages coming with Reason inside to other DAWs, as long as RS finds a way to protect their intelectual property...
Yeah, I really hope they see that it is a benefit to them (RS) and the user if there is a work-flow that makes sense using both Reason as a DAW and another DAW. The folks that are "coming back" will unlikely dump their DAW, but be very happy now to use the Rack inside their DAW of choice. If you only use Reason as a DAW, well you don't need the Rack Plugin, but that is a separate category of users.

But the users who buy the Rack Plugin, will they buy more stuff from RS, 1yr from now, 3yrs from now? After maybe buying some CV devices, what else would they buy?
Seasoned users probably have enough synths, and there is nothing that stands out as a must have. Would they buy Players, well not that much for now, since you cannot get the Midi out. And if you want to sequence your favorite drum machine, iZotope or Kontakt or Sonic Charge, etc, well you cannot since the Rack won't accept those VSTs.

And one year from now, when the new users think about maybe upgrading to Reason 12, well, why would they? The sequencer is probably getting a few more features, and it is fun to use Reason, but would they dump their DAW of choice? I don't think so, so most, if not all, new users will then have to think: Can I use Reason AND my current DAW in my work flow. Well, not really. If you have thousands of dollars worth of VSTs, you obviously want to use them efficiently in you work flow. But then there is no good way to transition a project from Reason to their DAW of choice, since the Rack cannot have VSTs inside. So if you want to start a project in Reason, you cannot use REs and VSTs together. And the user will reach the conclusion that the R11 upgrade was great, but there is no need to upgrade to R12 and so on, as the work flow using Reason DAW and another DAW is too crippled. Nobody wants to sit and re-build their FX chain for each track.

So, my conclusion is: RS will not sell future upgrades to the users coming back for the Rack Plugin - this is a one time sales opportunity, they way it is now. If they want these new users to consider future upgrades they must create an interest to use the Reason DAW. Lot's of people use two DAW tools. MPC with something, Machine with something, any DAW and finish in Protools etc. Very common. So how do they do this: They need to make it easy to start in Reason DAW and move it to another DAW.

Rack Plugin Midi out and hosting VSTs is a great step in that direction, that should be very difficult to do. To me that sounds like a low hanging fruit.
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Loque
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03 Oct 2019

Boombastix wrote:
03 Oct 2019
...So, my conclusion is: RS will not sell future upgrades to the users coming back for the Rack Plugin...
Well, i am not sure about this. They obviously got it happen, that "old" users already came back, even it is "only" for the rack plugin ;)

Who knows, what the future will bring. A VST host inside the rack and a scalable GUI would probably make few guys buy another upgrade. Not sure, if they need another FX or synth too. But seeing the flagship synths in VST-land, there is still room for little goldnuggets like Grain - which were a lot of ppl asking for as a VST...
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Boombastix
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03 Oct 2019

Loque wrote:
03 Oct 2019
Boombastix wrote:
03 Oct 2019
...So, my conclusion is: RS will not sell future upgrades to the users coming back for the Rack Plugin...
Well, i am not sure about this. They obviously got it happen, that "old" users already came back, even it is "only" for the rack plugin ;)

Who knows, what the future will bring. A VST host inside the rack and a scalable GUI would probably make few guys buy another upgrade. Not sure, if they need another FX or synth too. But seeing the flagship synths in VST-land, there is still room for little goldnuggets like Grain - which were a lot of ppl asking for as a VST...
Yes, coming back for v11, but what would entice an Ableton or Cubase etc user to continue to upgrade to R12?

If RS adds the VST hosting to the Rack a year from now, well, all new users will have found their work-flow in their DAW of choice mixing the Rack plugin with VSTs - they loose valuable time to get them to explore the RS DAW. And once that ship has sailed, it will be much harder to get users to break their work-flow using the Rack plugin. But if it was done now, there is more opportunity to get new Rack Plugin users to also look at the DAW for it fun factor and use it as an idea starter.

Now with Rewire gone there is also less incentive to use the Reason DAW if you mostly use another DAW. Maybe AAF support can be a Rewire replacement together with the already existing midi export?
So: AAF export
VST inside the Rack Plugin
Midi out from the Rack Plugin


Then I think the opportunity to get the new users to actually use the DAW is much better and RS can sell future upgrades to them - for the benefit of everyone.
With those three things collaboration and studio work will be so much easier for Reason users and on par with other major DAWs. Reason talks so much about colabs, and there is Abelton link, but at some point you need to bring it together in a studio, you need those three things to make it work in an easy way. How else would you go about it?
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EnochLight
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03 Oct 2019

Props/Reason Studios have spent the better part of 8 years trying to coax users of other DAW into making Reason their primary with 6.0 (OK, maybe 6.5, but still). I feel at this point, they've done all they could to try and get people to use Reason as their DAW. Let's face it: they will ALWAYS be behind the curve with the main sequencer.

I'm glad Reason 11 has coaxed a lot of old time users or ex-users to upgrade or buy again, but I'm curious to know if RS will be able to continue the momentum with 11.x updates, and eventually (hopefully) 12 and beyond? They're now selling to 2 different and distinct groups at the same time.
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joeyluck
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03 Oct 2019

Boombastix wrote:
03 Oct 2019

Now with Rewire gone there is also less incentive to use the Reason DAW if you mostly use another DAW. Maybe AAF support can be a Rewire replacement together with the already existing midi export?
So: AAF export
VST inside the Rack Plugin
Midi out from the Rack Plugin


Then I think the opportunity to get the new users to actually use the DAW is much better and RS can sell future upgrades to them - for the benefit of everyone.
With those three things collaboration and studio work will be so much easier for Reason users and on par with other major DAWs. Reason talks so much about colabs, and there is Abelton link, but at some point you need to bring it together in a studio, you need those three things to make it work in an easy way. How else would you go about it?
If the Reason Rack Plugin included VST support inside the Rack, would they necessarily need MIDI out? I would think then the cleaner workflow approach would be to then just add Players to VSTs inside the Rack. But I do think drag and drop MIDI clips (or export to...) from the Rack would be handy still. But realtime routing of MIDI out to other plugins outside of the Rack might be less necessary if it supports VST?

[EDIT] Well I guess it gets a bit different for those using the AU version of the Rack in Logic or the AAX version...with other AU/AAX plugins that can't be loaded in the Rack...at least yet...

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hurricane
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03 Oct 2019

Boombastix wrote:
03 Oct 2019

Yes, coming back for v11, but what would entice an Ableton or Cubase etc user to continue to upgrade to R12?
There is no way they give away midi out for free.
So that, and resizeable rack extensions in R12.
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diminished
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03 Oct 2019

hurricane wrote:
03 Oct 2019
There is no way they give away midi out for free.
I'm betting my Monopoly millions they are.
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QVprod
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03 Oct 2019

hurricane wrote:
03 Oct 2019
Boombastix wrote:
03 Oct 2019

Yes, coming back for v11, but what would entice an Ableton or Cubase etc user to continue to upgrade to R12?
There is no way they give away midi out for free.
So that, and resizeable rack extensions in R12.
Nobody outside of Reason 7 is paying an upgrade for just midi out and resizable GUI for the rack plugin. I think RS is smarter than that.

Notice though, it’s not called Reason Rack plugin 11. There might not be an upgrade path planned.

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hurricane
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03 Oct 2019

QVprod wrote:
03 Oct 2019
I think RS is smarter than that.
And you're basing this on what exactly lol?
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bxbrkrz
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03 Oct 2019

Sonicstate, in their latest video, R11 was positively well received. I don't believe any of them will switch their DAW of choice any time soon, but some will at least upgrade happily (my perception).
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Proboscis
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03 Oct 2019

QVprod wrote:
03 Oct 2019
Nobody outside of Reason 7 is paying an upgrade for just midi out and resizable GUI for the rack plugin. I think RS is smarter than that.
You think so huh ? Reason Studios as of 2019 has only one target. To make as much money as possible. There is no allowance for music makers taken, since the company is not a music related business. How are people completely overlooking this ? Your precious Propellerheads is GONE. Reason is now nothing more than a corporate asset in transition to another buyer, with the intention to maximize profit during that interim period. There is no long term plan for Reason and the development of functionality unless it can turn a buck for minimal financial input.

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QVprod
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03 Oct 2019

Proboscis wrote:
03 Oct 2019
QVprod wrote:
03 Oct 2019
Nobody outside of Reason 7 is paying an upgrade for just midi out and resizable GUI for the rack plugin. I think RS is smarter than that.
You think so huh ? Reason Studios as of 2019 has only one target. To make as much money as possible. There is no allowance for music makers taken, since the company is not a music related business. How are people completely overlooking this ? Your precious Propellerheads is GONE. Reason is now nothing more than a corporate asset in transition to another buyer, with the intention to maximize profit during that interim period. There is no long term plan for Reason and the development of functionality unless it can turn a buck for minimal financial input.
Maximizing profit requires putting out a product people think is worth buying. Adding those two things to a plugin will not generate much sales on it’s own.

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zoidkirb
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03 Oct 2019

How does any vst company keep making a profit after the initial sale is over? Hd/resizable gui, midi out, vst in rack will get some people to update, and get others to buy in the first place. They will think of something. That's before you even get to the micro transaction/re ecosystem which people will get addicted too. They really have done a good job streamlining the whole shop system.
Last edited by zoidkirb on 04 Oct 2019, edited 1 time in total.

Proboscis
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04 Oct 2019

QVprod wrote:
03 Oct 2019
Maximizing profit requires putting out a product people think is worth buying. Adding those two things to a plugin will not generate much sales on it’s own.
Reason as a rack is a brilliant development for attracting NEW customers. There is a whole future profit cycle that comes with that for those people that fall in love with the 'back of rack' concept and start wanting to buy rack extensions, many of which are developed by third parties paying a 30 commission to Reason Studios, for doing nothing but hosting them in their webstore. Fast profit and easy profit. Neither of those benefit the long term existing users. They (Propellerhead coders) didn't just knock this up over a few months, they would have been sitting on it for years, strategically biding time for the sell out to make future profitability seem like an attractive option for a buy out. So too with the repackaged refills. The Propellerhead OGs will have profited greatly from all of this as their ;long game' paid off, the current owners will profit greatly from this too, both now and also when they flog the company off as just another business transaction. The only two losers here are the existing users, since they are not the focus (there is no reason for us to be either. Lifetime value has reached it's end for most), and the eventual buyers of Reason Studios, who will see an incredible growth spurt, but at some point realize that it was a well orchestrated 'one shot'.

I'm just here shaking my head that people still think 'Reason Studios will do what's best for us'. It's completely off the mark.

Carpainter
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04 Oct 2019

Proboscis wrote:
03 Oct 2019
You think so huh ? Reason Studios as of 2019 has only one target. To make as much money as possible. There is no allowance for music makers taken, since the company is not a music related business. How are people completely overlooking this ? Your precious Propellerheads is GONE. Reason is now nothing more than a corporate asset in transition to another buyer, with the intention to maximize profit during that interim period. There is no long term plan for Reason and the development of functionality unless it can turn a buck for minimal financial input.
This has been the case since the introduction of Rack Extensions, when they started locking new instruments behind a paywall instead of including them in the updates. The fact there was a decade-long gap between Thor and Europa while they sold new synths in their shop should have clued people in to their intentions. Meanwhile, they saddled Reason with a burdensome DRM scheme that negatively impacts performance and treats their customers like potential thieves.

Propellerhead can get away with phoning in their updates and charging their customers extra for the good stuff because no other DAW developer has stepped up to the plate and created a viable alternative to Reason's rack. Many of us hold our noses and use Reason simply because we're in love with Reason's modular UI. Other attempts at modularity in the software space don't look much better than Buzz Tracker circa 1998.

PeterP
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04 Oct 2019

Boombastix wrote:
03 Oct 2019
But the users who buy the Rack Plugin, will they buy more stuff from RS, 1yr from now, 3yrs from now? After maybe buying some CV devices, what else would they buy?
I think those users will treat Reason just like they treat NI Komplete or Arturia V Collection today. Maybe skip a version or two but upgrade when enough new effects and instruments have been added.

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Boombastix
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04 Oct 2019

joeyluck wrote:
03 Oct 2019
Boombastix wrote:
03 Oct 2019

Now with Rewire gone there is also less incentive to use the Reason DAW if you mostly use another DAW. Maybe AAF support can be a Rewire replacement together with the already existing midi export?
So: AAF export
VST inside the Rack Plugin
Midi out from the Rack Plugin


Then I think the opportunity to get the new users to actually use the DAW is much better and RS can sell future upgrades to them - for the benefit of everyone.
With those three things collaboration and studio work will be so much easier for Reason users and on par with other major DAWs. Reason talks so much about colabs, and there is Abelton link, but at some point you need to bring it together in a studio, you need those three things to make it work in an easy way. How else would you go about it?
If the Reason Rack Plugin included VST support inside the Rack, would they necessarily need MIDI out? I would think then the cleaner workflow approach would be to then just add Players to VSTs inside the Rack. But I do think drag and drop MIDI clips (or export to...) from the Rack would be handy still. But realtime routing of MIDI out to other plugins outside of the Rack might be less necessary if it supports VST?

[EDIT] Well I guess it gets a bit different for those using the AU version of the Rack in Logic or the AAX version...with other AU/AAX plugins that can't be loaded in the Rack...at least yet...
Also, different users, different work-flows, so a few well thought out options is a good idea. But the VST midi thing is actually two separate things. VST midi out from the VST place holder, second is, midi out from the Rack Plugin itself.
In order of priority I would say:
1. VSTs inside the Rack Plugin (just like a normal Combinator)
2. Midi out from the VST place holder (might as well make it work in both for the full DAW rack/Combinator as well as the new Rack Plugin so you still can move freely between DAWs and get to use VST midi devices)
3. Send to "Track" could certainly be a drag n drop like Scaler. The Rack Plugin should be able to read the host DAW locators and just generate a midi clip that long, and then you just drag it out.
4. Midi out from the Rack Plugin, i.e. to send midi into the other DAW. ( I agree this may be a lower priority if #1-3 is implemented). But someone else might chime in with an opinion here. I can see those who will never use Reason as a DAW, but want to use a Player in the other DAW and just route midi like any VSTs midi device and not being forced to bring in an instrument. And this is required if you are going to use, say, Ableton's built in midi tools to manipulate the midi the Rack Plugin spits out.
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EdGrip
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04 Oct 2019

Boombastix wrote:
04 Oct 2019

Also, different users, different work-flows, so a few well thought out options is a good idea. But the VST midi thing is actually two separate things. VST midi out from the VST place holder, second is, midi out from the Rack Plugin itself.
In order of priority I would say:
Agree with all of this. Other companies make VST hosts-within-hosts, so it's doable. A way to get midi clips out would be good - midi out would be more versatile.

I would love to be able to CV between instances of the Rack - open up two or three side-by-side and drag CV cables between them. There are mastering VSTs that communicate inter-instance, so I think it may be possible? Admittedly that's a bigger can of worms.

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QVprod
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04 Oct 2019

Proboscis wrote:
04 Oct 2019
QVprod wrote:
03 Oct 2019
Maximizing profit requires putting out a product people think is worth buying. Adding those two things to a plugin will not generate much sales on it’s own.
Reason as a rack is a brilliant development for attracting NEW customers. There is a whole future profit cycle that comes with that for those people that fall in love with the 'back of rack' concept and start wanting to buy rack extensions, many of which are developed by third parties paying a 30 commission to Reason Studios, for doing nothing but hosting them in their webstore. Fast profit and easy profit. Neither of those benefit the long term existing users. They (Propellerhead coders) didn't just knock this up over a few months, they would have been sitting on it for years, strategically biding time for the sell out to make future profitability seem like an attractive option for a buy out. So too with the repackaged refills. The Propellerhead OGs will have profited greatly from all of this as their ;long game' paid off, the current owners will profit greatly from this too, both now and also when they flog the company off as just another business transaction. The only two losers here are the existing users, since they are not the focus (there is no reason for us to be either. Lifetime value has reached it's end for most), and the eventual buyers of Reason Studios, who will see an incredible growth spurt, but at some point realize that it was a well orchestrated 'one shot'.

I'm just here shaking my head that people still think 'Reason Studios will do what's best for us'. It's completely off the mark.
You haven't disagreed with me at all. New customers still have to see the product as worth buying. And even if Verdane is gearing up for a RS sale, I don't know why people think companies are dumb. If RS gets a new owner I'm sure they will have done research into what caused profit increases to make an informed decision on future profitability and whether that direction is sustainable. Either way, I'm personally unbothered. I buy a product when I feel it has value to me, not because I feel a need to"support the company".

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