Do Propellerhead (RS) owe their loyal customers anything?

[dvdrtldg]

As far as i can see, the concept of "rewarding" customers for their "loyalty" has its origins in cheap loss-leading marketing gimmicks (e.g. "loyalty" cards that they give you once you've handed over your email address)

Suckers bought into it, and now think there's some sort of actual moral obligation involved - i.e. that the more stuff you buy from a company, the more you're demonstrating noble and rewardable human qualities, rather than just buying stuff from a company

[seqoi]

Suckers bought into it, and now think there's some sort of actual moral obligation involved - i.e. that the more stuff you buy from a company, the more you're demonstrating noble and rewardable human qualities, rather than just buying stuff from a company

Well said +1

[Sorped]

No, they don't owe us anything. We pay for what they have put out, not what they are going to put out. So you can never be owed anything, what you pay for is what you get.

[thx]

LOL what is up with this drama? If you're feeling neglected, then welcome to life. If you're upset cause old things give way to new things, then, welcome to life. Folks moan about the company actions but it's their own form that got the PUF shut down. I would have shut it down too. As for Props, the newer versions and strategies, all of them, are absolutely necessary, are being clinically executed, and for many old-timers are the stuff of our dreams. Big up Mattias!

[reggie1979]

LOL what is up with this drama? If you're feeling neglected, then welcome to life. If you're upset cause old things give way to new things, then, welcome to life. Folks moan about the company actions but it's their own form that got the PUF shut down. I would have shut it down too. As for Props, the newer versions and strategies, all of them, are absolutely necessary, are being clinically executed, and for many old-timers are the stuff of our dreams. Big up Mattias!

It's just another pissing war. No, I'm right........no I'M RIGHT. Rinse and repeat.

[Last Alternative]

Propellerhead doesn’t owe me anything. They aren’t making me wanna stick around either.

[BigPictureSound]

No, they don't owe us something. If i am unsatisfied, i just don't buy it.

But... I appreciate it to be treated with special care and commit this with locality.

I think there are 2 types of product in the world... something that is used by anyone and everyone... like a toothbrush... and there are other things which have a much smaller group of people that want and use it... like a DAW.

If you lose one tooth brushing customer.. you are likely to quickly gain a new one.

However... with a specialist product like Reason.. you can't be so confident that losing one customer will naturally gain one. There simply aren't enough DAW enthusiasts (and professionals) out there. Yes there is a lot of us... but it isn't a vast market.

I think with Reason, the Props team should take care of their user community... nurture them... and show some consideration with a steady improvement of the product that takes into consideration of the community's requests. For me at least, I feel like I'm being treated like I bought a tooth brush, with a dismissive 'don't care' attitude.

I realise that the Props are a business and they need to make money and so need to focus their attention on where the money is. Just a shame that it's at the expense of caring for their core community.

I hesitate to be contrary, but perhaps you will agree that your analogy is akin to buying a toothbrush for what it is, but wanting to change it to what you think would make it better but getting disappointed they won’t listen.

If you want to talk about a product evolving, well, the same toothbrush that cleaned your teeth perfectly fine yesterday will also clean them perfectly fine tomorrow. The same for any DAW. In Reasons case, it is still capable of creating chart toppers today as it was yesterday.

If you don’t like the toothbrush, well, you can get a new one, but unlike the toothbrush- Reason lets you demo it before purchasing

[danc]

I think there are 2 types of product in the world... something that is used by anyone and everyone... like a toothbrush... and there are other things which have a much smaller group of people that want and use it... like a DAW.

If you lose one tooth brushing customer.. you are likely to quickly gain a new one.

However... with a specialist product like Reason.. you can't be so confident that losing one customer will naturally gain one. There simply aren't enough DAW enthusiasts (and professionals) out there. Yes there is a lot of us... but it isn't a vast market.

I think with Reason, the Props team should take care of their user community... nurture them... and show some consideration with a steady improvement of the product that takes into consideration of the community's requests. For me at least, I feel like I'm being treated like I bought a tooth brush, with a dismissive 'don't care' attitude.

I realise that the Props are a business and they need to make money and so need to focus their attention on where the money is. Just a shame that it's at the expense of caring for their core community.

I hesitate to be contrary, but perhaps you will agree that your analogy is akin to buying a toothbrush for what it is, but wanting to change it to what you think would make it better but getting disappointed they won’t listen.

If you want to talk about a product evolving, well, the same toothbrush that cleaned your teeth perfectly fine yesterday will also clean them perfectly fine tomorrow. The same for any DAW. In Reasons case, it is still capable of creating chart toppers today as it was yesterday.

If you don’t like the toothbrush, well, you can get a new one, but unlike the toothbrush- Reason lets you demo it before purchasing

The REASON from yesterday as you say is FULLY capable making a chart topper. A few weeks ago... I personally signed to a dance record label and have 4 tracks (deep-house/house/tech-house/D&B etc.) launching this side of Christmas on all the usual platforms - including the big ones. All created in REASON, mixed in REASON... mastered in REASON. No other DAW has been involved.

I have no plans to find another tooth brush! Reason's my tooth brush. It's a capable beast... keeps my teeth gleaming white!

Just sometimes - you want the features that other tooth brushes have. Kind of grass is greener. Then you think about it. And you realise you are happy with what you have.

[Proboscis]

When I upgrade, or buy rack extensions, they are purchased for what they are at the time. I don't expect Toyota to upgrade my car if they release a model variant with new features later on. By all means there is disappointment at the developers of Reason dragging their feet on things that I would like to see, and of which are standard in other DAWs, but Propellerhead haven't failed on their delivery of a software doing everything they claim it to do. Don't like what's on offer? - then don't upgrade.

[Boombastix]

If you know consumer law then you will understand that they do have to deliver what they promise. If Toyota tells you that a car has a V6 engine bla bla bla, you buy it, but a couple of months later you open the hood and see it is only a 4-cyl. That is obviously a problem - then Toyota owes you a V6 engine, because they said that is what you bought.

I know one instance where Reason has not delivered on a promise and that is VST midi. They advertise you can use your favorite VSTs but that is impossible with your favorite VSTs that require midi routing.
So, yeah there is that, and the new rack won't fix it either.

But anything that is stated in the manual, you cannot really say they owe you something. You can of course wish for more, but your wish and them owning you are two different things.

[ColdBeast254]

I have no plans to find another tooth brush! Reason's my tooth brush. It's a capable beast... keeps my teeth gleaming white!

Just sometimes - you want the features that other tooth brushes have. Kind of grass is greener. Then you think about it. And you realise you are happy with what you have.
[/quote]



My sentiments exactly! I like the track btw. Sounds good!

[boingy]

I know one instance where Reason has not delivered on a promise and that is VST midi.

VST midi is something that I really, really want but I don't remember them promising it.

[reggie1979]

EDIT, was trying to be funny but failed.

[Yonatan]

When I upgrade, or buy rack extensions, they are purchased for what they are at the time. I don't expect Toyota to upgrade my car if they release a model variant with new features later on. By all means there is disappointment at the developers of Reason dragging their feet on things that I would like to see, and of which are standard in other DAWs, but Propellerhead haven't failed on their delivery of a software doing everything they claim it to do. Don't like what's on offer? - then don't upgrade.

This is a bit simplified. The upgrade is not merely "what you see is what you get".
Buying Reason full license from nothing, then y
one better think the package is worth the dime.

But upgrades, we do expect more in point updates but that part is totally a hidden door that may or may not deliver.
It is quite obvious objectively that standard upgrade as of now as a mainly Reason 10 DAW user, is lacking (but that can be changed) . It may be of great value for a person thinking it will be worthwhile.. But the objective worth is not there coming from R10 if not already on another DAW, then 129 for saving a huge RE collection, may be beyond in value.

So we are sure of that bug fixes will be adressed in point updates but what other stuff might come is kept in the shade.
And in your way of approaching it, RS has no obligation at all to add anymore than announced for R11?
But that is not true as point updates workflow improvements and new stuff is praxis and become standard in the DAW ecosystem.

Off course RS cannot be expected to act as Logic x, as they have been adding things to that version many years now. But Apple is another pie.

But Reason can be compared to Ablive etc.
Despite the different in amount of users. But also the other daws can be found cracked, while Reason is more protected, so all its users are paying the bill. Ablive x amount of free passangers, but it still have enough legal licenses as many do see enough value in it.

My point was really the point updates system, that takes the softare apart from a bicycle or a car or a pair of trousers.

The debacle about a not enough upgrade for certain users, has its logic to it as the R11 is an evolving not finished product, so its a kind of subscription, so people use their voice as users and loyal consumers, to also impact the development and direction of the year or years ahead. Look how they added things to the 3 Mixer devices. That was not done automatically, but in a dynamic discussion in this forum.
We all know we cant have all little things we want in our own way, but if many users do say what would mean a different for their music making and mixing experience workflow, it will mean something to RS to listen and contemplating it.

Do RS owe us anything? Yes, in a way they are because of how the DAW business is structured and that they in the end is dependent on the loyalty of the users in a market where there are many other options, some for free.
And we as users are equally dependent on RS for updating and putting their skills and work into lifting the Reason to new heights. And keeping it up to date with computers OS etc.

We are interrelated. They do need us and we do need them as long as we all put our trust and see the good potential and creative value of the Reaon platform as a workstation and production tool.

If you meet your match and partner with someone, either as a band or as a spouse, you made that connection at a certain time. But the magical factor to the equation is Evolution. If you evolve in a certain way and then your partner refuse to evolve along or take a qiite different direction, there will be some scratching on the head and the harmonic days of the past may not be there. Either that so called crisis are tackled and you find a new depth and common goal and commitment or you better go different paths.

Likewise with someones relation with tools. We always loves a tool that has helped us expand and express our selves, but there may come a time where a Daw dont match your need or pace or direction.
Then appears a bit of crisis and how we handle such are quite different. Some start to scream and hate their tool, others try to invent new ways using it, and some may just silently find themselves another Daw.
And later if the original Daw take a giant leap forward in evolution, many might abandon their newer tools, or at least switch back a while.

If we now can go back and forth between different Daws then we might do so now easier than ever.
Some just stick with one and some switch Daws more often, depending on the latest cool feature or tool. We are just different. So the different voices, demands and needs.

That is all fine. What is not good is when it gets too toxic and dependent in an unhealthy way, where all ones happiness is projected and dependent on if we get feature X or not.
Best dynamic evolution is a middle ground where users and developer push and inspire eachother to evolve and realise their inner potential as much as possible.

[seqoi]

This is a bit simplified. The upgrade is not merely "what you see is what you get".

In fact it is exactly like it. It is exactly what you see is what you get. You are making it complicated.

But upgrades, we do expect more in point updates

That's core of problem - people expect something. And when it's not delivered they organize piss and hate party (not talking about you).

Note i am not pointing out you as a bad example and no disrespect is intended. Quite the contrary. Your opinion is valuable as much as mine is no more no less - even if i don't agree with you we are the same at the end of a day.

To me it's quite simple. I buy Reason in the moment. In that moment i bought it for all features it was shipped for. I pay company money and they deliver me product.

Later that product evolved. Is it to my liking or not it's subjective (to me) but company doesn't owe me or my workflow demands. They don't need to respect my own sensibilities.

I paid what i saw i am getting and i did get that - hence "what you see is what you get" is true.

It also just happens that i like Reason 11 features and i will upgrade to suite. I see it as a tremendous value. Mind you if it happened that i don't like new update i can :

a- still use my product
b- wait for better upgrades in the future (but any rational person would stick to A and work from there)

Happy music making

[danc]

This is a bit simplified. The upgrade is not merely "what you see is what you get".

In fact it is exactly like it. It is exactly what you see is what you get. You are making it complicated.

But upgrades, we do expect more in point updates

That's core of problem - people expect something. And when it's not delivered they organize piss and hate party (not talking about you).

Note i am not pointing out you as a bad example and no disrespect is intended. Quite the contrary. Your opinion is valuable as much as mine is no more no less - even if i don't agree with you we are the same at the end of a day.

To me it's quite simple. I buy Reason in the moment. In that moment i bought it for all features it was shipped for. I pay company money and they deliver me product.

Later that product evolved. Is it to my liking or not it's subjective (to me) but company doesn't owe me or my workflow demands. They don't need to respect my own sensibilities.

I paid what i saw i am getting and i did get that - hence "what you see is what you get" is true.

It also just happens that i like Reason 11 features and i will upgrade to suite. I see it as a tremendous value. Mind you if it happened that i don't like new update i can :

a- still use my product
b- wait for better upgrades in the future (but any rational person would stick to A and work from there)

Happy music making

Agree with A and B.

I think the frustration is the years and years and years we have to wait to see progression. Reason seems to progress at a snails pace, relative to other DAW platforms.

I know all the arguments - PH can work at whatever pace they want. They can decide or not decide to add the features. They can instead go off and make other things. It's all up to them. They owe us nothing.

It's just frustrating... as Reason is SOOOOOO close to being a perfect tool. I will continue to use it - and just have to do a few things in a way that isn't optimal nor friendly.

[Proboscis]

This is a bit simplified. The upgrade is not merely "what you see is what you get".

To each their own, but I buy products for what they are. Not what they aren't. The company has no obligation to follow up on point releases, ever. They have made no claims that if you buy in to Reason 11 you will get feature 'x' later on.

Don't like it, don't buy it. It really is that simple. I'm not upgrading, for I don't see enough compelling features and additions. Nobody is forcing me to upgrade. It won't revolutionize the way I write or produce music.

[Yonatan]

This is a bit simplified. The upgrade is not merely "what you see is what you get".

To each their own, but I buy products for what they are. Not what they aren't. The company has no obligation to follow up on point releases, ever. They have made no claims that if you buy in to Reason 11 you will get feature 'x' later on.

Don't like it, don't buy it. It really is that simple. I'm not upgrading, for I don't see enough compelling features and additions. Nobody is forcing me to upgrade. It won't revolutionize the way I write or produce music.

Ok, so if RS released an 11.1 with some bug fixes and an Plugin update around middle of November, and then in Mars, they release R12, you would think that is totally legit and makes sense?
There is always some praxis and standards even if they are not imprinted in a sheet of paper. Well, they could do that, but is it common sense to release a new upgrade less than a year after a release?
Common sense would be to inform users if there is any drastic new ways than we come to expect, that they now have a new praxis.
I agree with you that as a consumer, I do best in not expecting more than what is being announced for R11, except some bug fixes.
But imagine the reactions among users who did expect some form of extra at least at some point update?
And the upgrade cycle generally lasts at minimum 1 year until a new upgrade is taking place.
The confusion now with name change and logo change and so on, is that again we don´t really know what to expect onwards.
Theoretically, R12 could come in April. So this RS owe users nothing is a bit too simplified. This is not a used car market.

[WarStar]

They don't owe us anything but it would be a great idea to occasionally reward long time users with something. Let's say you make the minimum cut off with users that have upgraded at least 3/4 times after their initial Reason purchase? It's more to ensure continued use by long time users... But as I said they don't owe us anything but it would be a great PR marketing gesture to us long time Reason users.

[seqoi]

They don't owe us anything but it would be a great idea to occasionally reward long time users with something.

Why?

Tell me when was the last time someone rewarded you with something because you bought something/anything from them and you are using that?

Where do you find logical base for that way of thinking?

I won't do car analogy here because it's being done over and over.

I am buying fresh bread from a single resource for the last 20 years. He sell me bread, i pay it and use it. Why should he reward me for using his product for years?

Aren't we both i as a buyer and he as a seller - exhausted goods at our initial sale point?

Meaning he get my money for selling me product, i give him my hard earned money but i get satisfaction of eating good product and not being hungry.

I don't understand why he need to reward me. Ok bread is every day usage. Disposable.

But i haven't seen anyone being rewarded by Samsung because person is using Samsung fridge for more then a decade.

Why it should be different with software?

[MrFigg]

Whether they do or not we’re still not going to get anything. Since the “Rewards” fiasco I’ve just accepted the fact and moved on with my life.

[O1B]

No such thing as 'Customer Loyalty" as far as I an tell... The Customer can DO what HE or SHE wants.

There's "Customer RETENTION"....... there's "BRAND Loyalty"...

... nothing about "owing"....

The next American Cycle of such Fundamentalism to the aberrations of "Customer Loyalty" kicks into high gear Soon.

I recommend a set of these

[Timmy Crowne]

The problem with rewards programs is that all of the supposed savings to the customer would translate to lost profits for the business, which will almost definitely be recouped elsewhere. Every business has an incentive to set their prices at whatever level the market will bear, while simultaneously creating the illusion that they aren’t doing exactly that. The only reason they set up rewards programs is because we fall for the trick.

Infomercials do this all the time. “Order now and get two PantsMagnets for the price of one, just $19.95... but wait- there’s more! As a gift to our loyal customers, we’re throwing in a pair of PantyBellums for the special lady in your life! But that’s not all, we’re covering free shipping too! A $300 value, all yours for $19.95!”

No. It’s a $20 value because that’s what most potential customers are willing to pay. And the shipping cost is in the price. If they actually sold it at $300, hardly anyone would buy.

Credit card companies do this when they offer you 1% cash back after making 23% on your money.

Macy’s does this by selling everything at an absurdly inflated markup all year, just to bring prices down to an only slightly inflated markup once a year. And people will trample each other for the “sale.”

RS is doing this when they offer Reason Suite for $249, which means the 16 bundled RE’s are priced at $120 altogether. It’s tempting to think it’s an amazing value, but if those devices were still selling well at their original price points, there would be no reason for RS to devalue them so heavily. They would literally be pricing their own money away. Those devices are worth an average of $7.50 each. Not that they’re bad devices, but people just aren’t buying them anymore.

tl;dr There is no free lunch.

[boingy]

I recommend a set of these

Nope, not seeing anything to do with music in that picture.

[reggie1979]

I hope that none of you work in customer service (or at least I don't have to run into you needing something)