Be honest: What were you 100% sure would be in V11 but didn't make the cut?

[Timmy Crowne]

This is a weird question.

It's weird because I don't honestly believe that any meaningful change will happen because so little of it does. Worse than that, I have no reason to believe anyone working on this program has the training required to write the changes people want or need.

It's almost like hobbyists cobbling together this weird thing for other hobbyists, but not really knowing what they're doing because they've never had to know in the past.

So, if that outlook qualifies, I would say that I 100% expected the same stuff as before to be sold again, but with possibly minor changes that address very old bugs that should never have made it into production. They legally have to do something, no matter how small, to constitute a new product. Even if that's taking existing code and duplicating it into "new" devices, like the rack version of Master Comp. Users already paid for that. They don't need to buy it again.

You have to get your head straight about the game so far. These aren't product updates, they're a donation drive. This is a periodic crowdfunding campaign that houses, feeds, and clothes a very small support team. The nominal price of $129 pays for that, not for vast sweeping changes. It's just too cheap to fund anything more than that.

As much as I hope you’re wrong, it’s increasingly difficult to make a case for an alternative. I’ve read quite a few of your posts and your logic is sound. I don’t think the devs are purposely holding back content (that would be really bad for business) but it does seem that their team just doesn’t have the resources to efficiently develop the software.

If we consider the history of Reason, features like audio-recording, MIDI-out and VST all showed up years after the devs swore they wouldn’t do it. Maybe their initial stubbornness was because those features just seemed too daunting for them at the time. And maybe that’s why so many issues go unaddressed now.

It’s obvious that they can’t make ALL users happy, but it’s puzzling that literally DOZENS of practical, ingenious broad-based feature suggestions have been ignored. I hope this new push will generate enough profit for them to be able to employ more talented engineers and raise Reason to its potential.

[boingy]

This is a weird question.

It's weird because I don't honestly believe that any meaningful change will happen because so little of it does. Worse than that, I have no reason to believe anyone working on this program has the training required to write the changes people want or need.

It's almost like hobbyists cobbling together this weird thing for other hobbyists, but not really knowing what they're doing because they've never had to know in the past.

So, if that outlook qualifies, I would say that I 100% expected the same stuff as before to be sold again, but with possibly minor changes that address very old bugs that should never have made it into production. They legally have to do something, no matter how small, to constitute a new product. Even if that's taking existing code and duplicating it into "new" devices, like the rack version of Master Comp. Users already paid for that. They don't need to buy it again.

You have to get your head straight about the game so far. These aren't product updates, they're a donation drive. This is a periodic crowdfunding campaign that houses, feeds, and clothes a very small support team. The nominal price of $129 pays for that, not for vast sweeping changes. It's just too cheap to fund anything more than that.

As much as I hope you’re wrong, it’s increasingly difficult to make a case for an alternative. I’ve read quite a few of your posts and your logic is sound. I don’t think the devs are purposely holding back content (that would be really bad for business) but it does seem that their team just doesn’t have the resources to efficiently develop the software.

If we consider the history of Reason, features like audio-recording, MIDI-out and VST all showed up years after the devs swore they wouldn’t do it. Maybe their initial stubbornness was because those features just seemed too daunting for them at the time. And maybe that’s why so many issues go unaddressed now.

It’s obvious that they can’t make ALL users happy, but it’s puzzling that literally DOZENS of practical, ingenious broad-based feature suggestions have been ignored. I hope this new push will generate enough profit for them to be able to employ more talented engineers and raise Reason to its potential.

If you could be a fly on the wall at PH HQ I'm pretty sure you'd find that there are a handful of features that were intended to be in R11 that are not quite finished or stable enough. The release date is not set by the devs. It is set for marketing reasons to hit a season or a date that is beneficial to sales (Autumn, Black Friday, Christmas, whatever). At some point someone has to make the call and decide which features are ready for Sept 25th. In the meantime development of the other stuff continues and will find its way into a subsequent point release, along with the inevitable bug fixes. They probably froze the R11 features a month or two ago to allow time for testing and marketing stuff. It's always a race against time. And, yeah, PH have a very small development team compares to the big players. PH is not a big company.

[Last Alternative]

You’re probably right, boingy (I hope). After all, I think partly, most of the discord stems from obvious mistakes they made deciding to ship it too early and the next update will make amends. Fingers crossed

[dezma]

And, yeah, PH have a very small development team compares to the big players. PH is not a big company.

I get that, however we are customers so once in a while we can be critical on what we get as returns for our money.

In my personal case:

I've had it with the waiting. Being a long time user since R3, I was very happy to see VST and I wanted to replace my clumsy Live + Reason rewire setup for years now with reason only. I kept having the naive idea reason would eventually catch up. It's still not capable of doing (again for me personally) the most basic things such as //ontopic// sample drag n drop to VST, automation of Avenger VST, autosaving a file and sequencer track folders and this point in time is where I'll be looking if alternatives can provide me a better workflow. Sad thing is I'll probably need to upgrade to have the rack VST.

That and the fact they launch suite while I did pay several 100's for:

Polar
Umpf
Parsec
Complex-1
Quad note

Look at the Rob Papen explorer bundle pricing model, having 2 RP products gives you 40%, 3 will give you 60%, 4 a whopping 80%. Yeah, more administration but it tells us customers, hey we appreciate your loyalty over the years and here you get more of our great products for a serious discount. That's quite the opposite of being spit in the face.

[danc]

The whole focus seems to be so lopsided... my own personal fly on the wall PH product review meeting recording is this...

NEW BOSS #1 - 'Hello gents (oh and yes.. lady - thanks Harriet for your new logo). I.... sorry we... yes WE are on a mission to find new customers... I... sorry WE... have this amazing idea to serve a whole new audience with Reason embedded in popular DAWs. We will give these people the Reason rack in a VST'

(he's ignorent to the fact that it won't be all DAWS as it's VST3)

He continues... 'It's our crown jewel - so let's open the doors and have a (money) party'.

SIDE-KICK BOSS #2 - 'Great idea.'

(He thinks but doesn't say... I'll eventually see some return on my 1.7% shares)

He continues... 'We better stock up our RE collection to serve them. As they'll love to access our SSL look-alike (silently thinks - but certainly doesn't sound like) amazing mixing desk.'

From across the room a measly worker dares to speak, instead he timidly puts up his hand... side-kick boss #2 nods and lets him speak.. Big Boss is happily using his phone ignoring anyone's thoughts on his amazing idea ('I speak - you listen' is his life-long mantra).

OLD LOYAL DEVELOPER (history: he joined cus he loves (or should I say could soon be 'he once loved') Reason) - 'What about our loyal users that have stuck with us through thick and thin... even with our diabolical CPU munching execution of VSTs.'

(thinks - thankfully they listened to me and gave me the time to fix it)

He continues.. 'Some of our loyal users have been with us for 18 years (yes - Reason 1 was 2001). Why are we taking the piss out of them... giving them 4 top of the tree 'asked for' sequencing features. Have you not looked at Reasontalk and seen that the wish list is actually much LONGER than 4 (oh sorry - 6) amends. More like 50 much required requests.'

BOSS #1 retorts..
'What's the least we can do to keep them quiet for another 1 or 2 years. Make a bit of easy money! Yes - let the Bl**dy idiots continue to support us. I've been told they're easily pleased. They seem to love to keep giving us money. So let's feed them some halfhearted titbits.'

Back to me...
Ggggrrr..

It's the first ever time ever where I'm questioning getting an update on day one of release. I'm being asked to give them 129 (Euros/Dollars or whatever) and for me I'm getting 6 sequencing improvements - 2 of which aren't exactly essential (zoom and show notes in key edit).

Yes I'm being offered some additional REs - namely putting the channel strip EQ, Dynamics and Bus compressor into REs... however... I am really well stocked with stunning VSTs to do this from Kilohearts, Izotope, Fabfilter, Melda, Brainworxs etc etc. I hardly believe I will be swapping Pro-Q3 for Channel EQ!

[dezma]

The whole focus seems to be so lopsided... my own personal fly on the wall PH product review meeting recording is this...

Sounds like a little dramatization of the actual meeting minutes, it made me smile however.

A little bit like top gear's reconstruction of the peugeot roadmap (completely offtopic ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQugEZOrZSc

[danc]

The whole focus seems to be so lopsided... my own personal fly on the wall PH product review meeting recording is this...

Sounds like a little dramatization of the actual meeting minutes, it made me smile however.

A little bit like top gear's reconstruction of the peugeot roadmap (completely offtopic ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQugEZOrZSc

I'll take that as a compliment.

Around about November this year I will be dreading the letterbox going clank... and my copies of Sound on Sound and Music Tech and Computer Music and Future Music dropping on the floor. The unison of opinion in all these magazines will be this..

Reason 11
A new Rack VST that every DAW user out there didn't realise they needed.. and most likely never will want.
For the people that actually care - here you go, here's 4 measly improvements that took PH about 2 weeks to write. And 8 of those days was QA.'
Rating: WTF - 1 out of 10.

How about I send out a Press Release to them all, so that they can cut-n-paste it direct into their review. Save them the effort of installing it and trying it out.

[loopeydoug]

First of all, Reason is still the most creative software I've ever used. I still love it. And, yes, you can love something and want to see it get stronger, despite its fumbles. I don't use other DAWs because I don't like other DAWs. I never cared about VST support or being able to use Reason in Fruity Loops(I'd rather be forced to beatbox while getting waterboarded, personally).

I've hoped for a new Combinator for years, to no avail. With 11, I was a blank slate though. No expectations or hopes left. In light of VST support and now Other Daw support, it's fairly clear what the intended path is, moving forward. We can expect frenzied RE development in the coming year. It would appear this may be a big shot in the arm for the company. Regardless, I wish the Reason team and all the devs the greatest sense of success, whatever that means to them. And if they are truly committed to this money>signature creativity path, they'll unveil a clip launcher in Reason 12(not that I care about having one). Just rip the bandaid off and move on already(which is how I felt about VST implementation in 9.?/10).

Please excuse my offtopic rambling. I don't comment much, so I allow myself a rant here and there.

[deigm]

The nominal price of $129 pays for that, not for vast sweeping changes. It's just too cheap to fund anything more than that.

Reaper has a 2 man team and updates basically weekly with features out the wazoo. And it cost next to nothing, I love reason and will continue to use it as my only DAW, but I wont be upgrading this time around. As someone who has no use for a VST3 rack I just cant see why I'd pay $129 for almost nothing. Hopefully they come hard with workflow features in a point update. That I'd pay for.

[Wobbleburger]

I was really hoping for some kind of overhaul on the file explorer situation.

[boomer]

Markers at the very least which seems very easy to implement.

To me it is unbelievable that markers are still missing. They should have been added back with Record. Is there another DAW in the world that doesn’t have them ?

[reggie1979]

They think blocks covers markers, or at least I'm pretty sure that is a main reason.

I'm surprised they didn't do the graphic updates so many were asking for. And of course, VST3 seems to big a big priority for many.

[Goriila Texas]

Makes you think because many at PH are musicians that they must use something else for a DAW. I mean if they actually use Reason these simple things would irritate them too and would quickly get fixed years ago. I bet most use Live including the project manager Matthias.

Markers at the very least which seems very easy to implement.

To me it is unbelievable that markers are still missing. They should have been added back with Record. Is there another DAW in the world that doesn’t have them ?

[parma]

Makes you think because many at PH are musicians that they must use something else for a DAW. I mean if they actually use Reason these simple things would irritate them too and would quickly get fixed years ago. I bet most use Live including the project manager Matthias.

To me it is unbelievable that markers are still missing. They should have been added back with Record. Is there another DAW in the world that doesn’t have them ?

Yep. It's really disheartening to see that the product manager for Reason seems to prefer working with Live's DAW capabilities.

[JunctionArsonist]

This is a periodic crowdfunding campaign that houses, feeds, and clothes a very small support team. The nominal price of $129 pays for that, not for vast sweeping changes. It's just too cheap to fund anything more than that.

I think this is a reasonable assessment. I don't think it is fundamentally wrong for Propellerhead to do it either. I'm inclined to make my donation of a few hours of my salary so that my favourite software is supported. I bet many people aren't in the same financial situation as me, so the proposition of making a donation is less attractive because there is plainly no value.

My hope is that if the reason dev team and the entire company is reading this ongoing drama, they are keeping a cool head. There is a community of people here who will continue to support development, and we understand that prioritizing a reason plugin can drive revenue which may in turn fund some of the things the community wants.

[Goriila Texas]

Makes you think because many at PH are musicians that they must use something else for a DAW. I mean if they actually use Reason these simple things would irritate them too and would quickly get fixed years ago. I bet most use Live including the project manager Matthias.

Yep. It's really disheartening to see that the product manager for Reason seems to prefer working with Live's DAW capabilities.

[parma]

01-sm-n.2b512841936c.png (251.49 KiB) Viewed 2622 times

In this picture from the Reason 11 announcement, which is the main creative product being used?

[VariableX]

01-sm-n.2b512841936c.png

In this picture from the Reason 11 announcement, which is the main creative product being used?

Yeah - doesn't look good does it. Especially with that grey Visual Basic looking monstrosity in the background.
However, I still prefer to use R10 as my main DAW and if R11 brings in the new customers it will be good for the company.

[parma]

01-sm-n.2b512841936c.png

In this picture from the Reason 11 announcement, which is the main creative product being used?

Yeah - doesn't look good does it. Especially with that grey Visual Basic looking monstrosity in the background.
However, I still prefer to use R10 as my main DAW and if R11 brings in the new customers it will be good for the company.

That grey Visual Basic monstrosity started after Reason and has become *the* DAW for modern electronic music producers in the meantime. Finally got crossfades in Reason though, so

[Re8et]

Snapshots

[Jagwah]

Garlic bread

[Jackjackdaw]

I was 100% sure they weren't going to make Reason as a VST! I thought it would be a massive sequencer overhaul, maybe replace the tutorial window with the sequencer toolbox with a ton of new workflow features and a shiny new hi res GUI. These were the no brainers.

I'm not bothered though, The synths and the players are my draw, the VST thing is right up my street.

[motuscott]

Audio punch in.
Am I the only one recording instruments live?

[plaamook]

Markers at the very least which seems very easy to implement.

Actually, yeah. With all the improvemnets they made, markers should have been in there.

[Jackjackdaw]

Audio punch in.
Am I the only one recording instruments live?

Maybe... I used to exist solely in the Iive instrument realm. I never met anyone using Reason to lay down tracks!