Using Guitar to Play Synths ?

[Proboscis]

Hello Everybody !

Wondering if there is any way to play guitar and have the notes trigger synthesizer rack extensions, or at least some way to have my playing captured in the sequencer ? Since Reason introduced pitch correction, I thought that may be the answer, but unfortunately that becomes a mess, since I guess the intention of that feature is to process vocals only.

I've seen some audio to device tutorials, but they are more focused on using synth FX, or in the case of Thor, the built n sequencer. I have been trialing JamOrigin's MIDI guitar, in standalone mode, so this isn;t really what I'm after - although even in standalone mode it's not very accurate and picks up a lot of random notes. Basically it's a mess.

[spencer335]

I've had pretty good luck with JamOrigin MIDIGuitar. You can dial down the sensitivity and reduce the noise - and you may find it better playing slower and simpler parts.

[guitfnky]

yes, JamOrigin MIDI Guitar 2 is where it’s at. you need to learn decent technique—a lot of stuff you take for granted that you can do playing guitar (strumming muted strings for percussive effect, being a prime example) will not translate well. and muting strings that you might otherwise leave ringing is important. and as spencer says, you’ll want to fiddle with the settings to see what works best for you.

I find that playing MIDI instruments that have very fast attacks doesn’t work very well, but if you’re playing pads, or strings, or anything like that, you can have some really good results. the thing you need to worry about when recording the MIDI is that you will almost undoubtedly need to do some cleanup. I find that it’s not terribly difficult or time consuming—just a matter of finding the (usually obvious) stray notes and deleting them.

as for using it in standalone mode—unfortunately that’s the only option if you want to actually record MIDI into Reason right now...you need to set up a MIDI loopback to do that, if you haven’t already. it’s pretty straightforward if you follow the instructions on the JamOrigin website.

I’m working on a song now where I played an Addictive Keys Rhodes solo with it, and it’s heavenly—so expressive, and it really makes the song. can’t wait to actually release it (unfortunately, it’s part of an album that probably won’t be done until next year).

anyhoo, good luck!

[boingy]

...- although even in standalone mode it's not very accurate and picks up a lot of random notes. Basically it's a mess.

There is no way to soften the blow. The reason you think that MIDIGuitar is a mess is because your guitar playing is a mess!
How do I know? Because mine is too!

We bash away at our guitar and like what we hear but, actually, our accuracy is not so great so we are catching other strings, not quite muting strings and generating other artifacts that we can't really hear because they are being drowned out by the main stuff we are playing. Guitars generate long resonant notes that cover up small errors. It's one of the reasons the instrument is so popular and easy to learn. If you ever watch a pub "singalong" piano player you'll see them making lots of use of the sustain pedal - same thing. They are "smearing" the notes to cover the errors!

JamOrigin MIDIGuitar is as good as it gets. For me it performs better than the hardware solutions. If you want to trigger staccato or short synth sounds then you need to improve your technique or get good at editing. If you are lazy like me then you can get great results with longer sounds like strings and pads. I love driving Omnisphere from the guitar. My endless and pointless noodling can fill imaginary (tripped-out) stadiums. "Thank you, thank you. This this next one is longer than a Rick Wakeman solo..."

On a more serious note, if you want to improve your fretboard accuracy, MIDIGuitar will tell you the cold, brutal truth.

[Last Alternative]

I wish I had Matthew Bellamy’s (Muse) midi guitar That’s the real McCoy but you gotta be rich.

[PeterP]

...- although even in standalone mode it's not very accurate and picks up a lot of random notes. Basically it's a mess.

There is no way to soften the blow. The reason you think that MIDIGuitar is a mess is because your guitar playing is a mess!
How do I know? Because mine is too!

We bash away at our guitar and like what we hear but, actually, our accuracy is not so great so we are catching other strings, not quite muting strings and generating other artifacts that we can't really hear because they are being drowned out by the main stuff we are playing. Guitars generate long resonant notes that cover up small errors. It's one of the reasons the instrument is so popular and easy to learn. If you ever watch a pub "singalong" piano player you'll see them making lots of use of the sustain pedal - same thing. They are "smearing" the notes to cover the errors!

JamOrigin MIDIGuitar is as good as it gets. For me it performs better than the hardware solutions. If you want to trigger staccato or short synth sounds then you need to improve your technique or get good at editing. If you are lazy like me then you can get great results with longer sounds like strings and pads. I love driving Omnisphere from the guitar. My endless and pointless noodling can fill imaginary (tripped-out) stadiums. "Thank you, thank you. This this next one is longer than a Rick Wakeman solo..."

On a more serious note, if you want to improve your fretboard accuracy, MIDIGuitar will tell you the cold, brutal truth.

This is the harsh truth and exactly my experience as well.

But, it is not that hard to "clean up" your playing if you do a bit of focused practicing. Shouldn't take more than a week or so to see significant improvements.

[gdm41]

I recently picket up this programm https://migic.com/
Works fine, but it has its limitations, no slides or vibrato. But for me its ok, hence its not too pricey.

[eiresurfer]

I have Jam Origin Midi Guitar as well. It is a bit of a battle to get good results, but I find the results and (more often than not) the mistakes can often result in some very interesting sounds.

I've read that you can get cleaner midi if you lightly wrap a cotton hair band around the very top of the neck on the first fret, as it helps to mute some of the accidental notes. Anyone tried this?

[Proboscis]

Thanks for the responses so far - I was fearful that this thread would be buried under all the Reason 11 posts.

As to the suggestion that my playing is a mess, that's true But I'm trying to find a way to play that doesn't trigger notes even with the slightest of palm touches. Plus it's hard for me play unmuted, since I usually bash chug out high-gain stuff. I guess I'll keep trialing the standalone JamOrigin device, of which I'm using Viking as a synth (I don't have very many VSTs, but a lot of Rack Extensions, which I can't sync to the MIDI Guitar software. Part of me was hoping there was some way to use Reason with some Audio to CV magic, but I guess that's not the case.

I've started working on building a very interesting patch for guitar playing in Reason, using only free RE's and VST, so hopefully I can share that with this forum when/if it's complete

[guitfnky]

Thanks for the responses so far - I was fearful that this thread would be buried under all the Reason 11 posts.

As to the suggestion that my playing is a mess, that's true But I'm trying to find a way to play that doesn't trigger notes even with the slightest of palm touches. Plus it's hard for me play unmuted, since I usually bash chug out high-gain stuff. I guess I'll keep trialing the standalone JamOrigin device, of which I'm using Viking as a synth (I don't have very many VSTs, but a lot of Rack Extensions, which I can't sync to the MIDI Guitar software. Part of me was hoping there was some way to use Reason with some Audio to CV magic, but I guess that's not the case.

I've started working on building a very interesting patch for guitar playing in Reason, using only free RE's and VST, so hopefully I can share that with this forum when/if it's complete

based on your “slightest of palm touches” comment, it sounds like the sensitivity and gate settings in MIDI Guitar 2 need to be tweaked.

one trick I’ve used if you want to trigger more percussive instruments is to record using a sound with a slower attack, cleaning up the MIDI, and then swapping out the instrument with your preferred one. obviously you don’t get the benefit of instant feedback on your playing, but in these cases, I find that’s actually beneficial, because it prevents you from getting distracted by false triggers.

[KarmaFunkarma]

FWIW, what I'm going to comment on here is a software only perspective. Midi guitar using hardware is a whole other discussion. So...

1. Make sure your audio interface input level is set so your guitar signal is super clean (keep it in the green)
2. In Midi Guitar 2, set the noise gate level to at around 50% or even higher
3. Set the Midi Guitar 2 gain control to around 10 o'clock
4. Play very cleanly

NOT TURNING THIS INTO A R11 THREAD (but)...
If you upgrade to R11, then run the rack as a vst plugin inside of a plugin host where you can add a noise gate and limiter in front of MidiGuitar2. A clean, "tight" guitar signal helps greatly!

I record using MidiGuitar2 in my main DAWs (Ableton Live and Logic). For playing live, I use GigPerformer (which is awesome in every way - gigperformer.com).

Here's my best signal chain for getting good tracking (using my live setup as an example)...
** Guitar >> Audio Interface >> GigPerformer In >> Noise Gate plugin (set to catch "string touches") >> Brickwall Limiter plugin (set to catch hard peaks) >> MidiGuitar2 plugin >> VSTi of choice (This is where you'd plug in Reason Rack VST) >> 2nd Brickwall Limiter plugin (to catch peaks) >> Other effects plugins if desired (i.e. reverb, etc.) >> GigPerformer Out >> Audio Interface Out.

Even hardware midi guitar (like the fantastic Fishman TriplePlay) require you play less like a "guitarist" and focus on being super clean. With software like MidiGuitar 2, you have to play clean and make sure it is seeing as clean of a signal as possible.

Hope this helps.

[123repeater]

or If you want to be cheap you can do this

[boingy]

Incidentally, you can sweet talk the Jam Origin dev guy into giving you a trial of the VST if you ask nicely on his forum. It's not included as standard in the trial (I've no idea why!). Of course, that doesn't help you if you only have Reason as your VST host because of the lack of support for MIDI VSTs in Reason.

I also concur with the above comments about a clean signal. I get best results with the single coil bridge pickup on my Strat, with the tone set to "tinny". The other end of the scale is the neck humbucker on the Les Paul - definitely worse but still usable.

I must admit it had never occurred to me to pre-process the audio before it gets to the Midi Guitar plugin. A bit of EQing and gateing might, indeed, help. What has occurred to me is to buy a very cheap guitar and remove two or three strings from it and just noodle around on the remaining ones!

As for the Fishman I trialled it toe to toe with MIDI Guitar and MIDI Guitar just edged it in terms of me finding it easier to get the sounds I intended. It wasn't a perfect trial because I only had about 30 minutes and it was not my guitar (the action was a little too low for me) but I have no regrets about buying the software especially as I don't really have much appetite for adding hardware stuff to my treasured Strat!

[Proboscis]

1. Make sure your audio interface input level is set so your guitar signal is super clean (keep it in the green)
2. In Midi Guitar 2, set the noise gate level to at around 50% or even higher
3. Set the Midi Guitar 2 gain control to around 10 o'clock
4. Play very cleanly

Thanks for those tips. I've been thinking about this situation a lot in the past day, and realized two things. First, the guitar I have been using to trial MG2 has very dirty sounding pickups - it was designed to be marketed to the metal/rock market of players. Plus, when I use a high gain amp simulator, it's very noisy with electrical hum if I'm sitting at my studio desk. This noise is not perceptible at all when playing clean, but I guess it's still there, and may be why I'm getting accidental triggering, even when I tried fooling around with the input knob. Later today I'll use another guitar with single coil pups and see how that behaves. It's probably also worth experimenting with my interface's input signal to see if I can find a sweet spot.

NOT TURNING THIS INTO A R11 THREAD (but)...
If you upgrade to R11, then run the rack as a vst plugin inside of a plugin host where you can add a noise gate and limiter in front of MidiGuitar2. A clean, "tight" guitar signal helps greatly!

A great suggestion - however I see only two items of value in the upcoming release, that being the automation and the MIDI muting. Since I feel that these are things that should be a long overdue fix rather than a feature, it's unlikely I'll be upgrading. Which I'm fine with. My last upgrade was from 6.5, a free transition to 7, then an upgrade to 10, which represented incredible value for 130 bones. Therefore I'm content to wait for 12 or 13, since there's plenty for me to make music with already. Of course that may change if I push the button on MG2, since I'll be able to use all of my Rack Extension synths and FX

Even hardware midi guitar (like the fantastic Fishman TriplePlay) require you play less like a "guitarist" and focus on being super clean. With software like MidiGuitar 2, you have to play clean and make sure it is seeing as clean of a signal as possible.

There never seemed to be a very big takeup of the tripleplay in the guitarist community, and I always wondered if it performed as well as they claimed.

Have any readers of this thread used both the fishman pickup and JamOrigin's MG2, and if so, can speak of their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other?

Something else I am hoping to have as a feature in a guitar > MIDI plugin is to be able to have string bends recorded in the Reason sequencer as pitch wheel automation, since I want to start making music that has a lot of subtle vibrato that is natural on a fretboard but very hard to replicate with a pitchwheel, since it's a small fraction of a semitone

[Proboscis]

Of course, that doesn't help you if you only have Reason as your VST host because of the lack of support for MIDI VSTs in Reason.

Oh wait... what!? That suddenly brings this line of inquiry to a crashing end. For music, I only use Reason, as I have very few VSTs to warrant using another DAW. I was hoping I could unlock all of my Rack Extension instruments and samples to use in a new way, since I'm no good at playing keyboard.

That's a damn shame.

[boingy]

Of course, that doesn't help you if you only have Reason as your VST host because of the lack of support for MIDI VSTs in Reason.

Oh wait... what!? That suddenly brings this line of inquiry to a crashing end. For music, I only use Reason, as I have very few VSTs to warrant using another DAW. I was hoping I could unlock all of my Rack Extension instruments and samples to use in a new way, since I'm no good at playing keyboard.

That's a damn shame.

There is a workaround, probably documented somewhere better than I can describe. It's a bit of a faff but you can install virtual MIDI ports on your PC. Use the Jam Origin standalone to send the MIDI notes to a virtual port then select that virtual port as an input to Reason, so Reason thinks the MIDI notes are coming from outside the box.

[KarmaFunkarma]

Have any readers of this thread used both the fishman pickup and JamOrigin's MG2, and if so, can speak of their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other?

Something else I am hoping to have as a feature in a guitar > MIDI plugin is to be able to have string bends recorded in the Reason sequencer as pitch wheel automation, since I want to start making music that has a lot of subtle vibrato that is natural on a fretboard but very hard to replicate with a pitchwheel, since it's a small fraction of a semitone

I own both and have also owned midi guitar gear by Axon, Roland and Yamaha over the years.

The Fishman was developed by András Szalay. He's the GOAT when it comes to midi guitar controllers (he also developed the Axon and indirectly the Yamaha).

Simple comparison...
The Fishman dances circles around MG2 in every possible way. It is the best midi guitar controller hardware ever IMO. The Axon's were fantastic and the Fishman is the next step in that evolution. The downside is it still requires a hexaphonic pickup (though it being wireless is great compared to the 13 pin cable of something like Roland).

MG2 works with any guitar but does not track as well, period. It also is weaker on bend tracking compared to the Fishman.

So, that's the tradeoff...
Fishman = hardware + great performance
MG2 = no hardware + good performance

[Proboscis]

Re: Boingy - Over the years I've tried to get all sorts of loopbacks, MIDI jacking and all other manner of black magic for routing between software, and had no success. Whether it's beyond the scope of my limited technical understanding, or a problem with how my PC handles audio, I don't know. Perhaps I shall investigate this option again. Thanks for the suggestion.

Re: Karmfinkarma - Your contribution is very valuable, since you have a wealth of experience with various Guitar>MIDI systems. Does the Tripleplay work with Reason, or are the same limitations present as mentioned before (in that it won;t handle MIDI VST - I guess the question is, will it recognize the receiving dongle as a MIDI Controller, or do you need to virtual route the signal out of a proprietary Fishman application?)

In my region, the Fishman is very expensive, around the price of two weeks rent. So I would really need to find a retailer with a good returns policy if the thing doesn't work for me.

[Proboscis]

OK I'm getting somewhere with LoopMIDI. Also just discovered the EMI device (had no need for this previously). I can get notes into the sequencer

but

I get a "MIDI Input is about the Overflow" warning then the LoopMIDI app crashes.

That's something else I will troubleshoot, as I have no idea what it means.

edit - getting some nasty signal through the virtual routing, which is not coming from the guitar, as I switched to an inactive input on my audio interface.

MIDInoise.PNG (17.72 KiB) Viewed 6993 times

[guitfnky]

Re: Boingy - Over the years I've tried to get all sorts of loopbacks, MIDI jacking and all other manner of black magic for routing between software, and had no success. Whether it's beyond the scope of my limited technical understanding, or a problem with how my PC handles audio, I don't know. Perhaps I shall investigate this option again. Thanks for the suggestion.

it’s really not hard to set up. I mentioned before JamOrigin has setup steps right on their website. it’s under Reason setup, or something similar, as I recall. doesn’t take long, and works just fine in Reason, even though it’s not running “in” Reason.

honestly, the hardest part about it is remembering that you can’t click the X button at the top right of the standalone app the way you would a plugin, since it will obviously shut the whole app off. can’t tell you how many times I’ve done that.

as for Fishman, or any other hardware solution, the biggest downsides are cost and installation. I was looking hard at the Roland GK pickups and the Triple Play, when I stumbled onto MIDI Guitar 2—and I’m glad I did—I was floored by the performance, for one, especially since it’s got to figure everything out with a single audio source, instead of one for each string. anyway, it saved me between two hundred, and five hundred bucks. obviously, if you need it for live use, that complicates things.

[Proboscis]

it’s really not hard to set up. I mentioned before JamOrigin has setup steps right on their website. it’s under Reason setup, or something similar, as I recall. doesn’t take long, and works just fine in Reason, even though it’s not running “in” Reason.

Hi, and thanks for your continued comments. As per my post above, I've worked out the LoopbackMIDI. My previous attempts to get it working, and failing, was due to PC issues and certain other software I use to force override settings on the way it handles audio. Not worth going into detail on this thread, but that was the cause of my previous failed attempts with virtual routing.

Back to the issue at hand - I'm, at a loss as to why I'm getting garbage signal into the EMI (per the earlier sequencer screenshot). This is what is being recorded as soon as I trigger an input value, before the virtual router crashes due to an overload.

Time to do some troubleshooting, and while I don't expect to find a solution (I have no idea about the MIDI protocol in a technical capacity), at the very least I can eliminate possible failure points.

As this thread probably doesn't get a lot of visitors due to the title, apart from guitar players, I hope its OK with you guys if I repost this specific issue to a new thread to catch a wider audience, since it's no longer really about guitars anymore.

[guitfnky]

it’s really not hard to set up. I mentioned before JamOrigin has setup steps right on their website. it’s under Reason setup, or something similar, as I recall. doesn’t take long, and works just fine in Reason, even though it’s not running “in” Reason.

Hi, and thanks for your continued comments. As per my post above, I've worked out the LoopbackMIDI. My previous attempts to get it working, and failing, was due to PC issues and certain other software I use to force override settings on the way it handles audio. Not worth going into detail on this thread, but that was the cause of my previous failed attempts with virtual routing.

Back to the issue at hand - I'm, at a loss as to why I'm getting garbage signal into the EMI (per the earlier sequencer screenshot). This is what is being recorded as soon as I trigger an input value, before the virtual router crashes due to an overload.

Time to do some troubleshooting, and while I don't expect to find a solution (I have no idea about the MIDI protocol in a technical capacity), at the very least I can eliminate possible failure points.

As this thread probably doesn't get a lot of visitors due to the title, apart from guitar players, I hope its OK with you guys if I repost this specific issue to a new thread to catch a wider audience, since it's no longer really about guitars anymore.

you don’t need the EMI device...that’s probably got something to do with why you’re seeing garbage data. EMI sends MIDI out of Reason to external hardware.

http://www.jamorigin.com/docs/daw/#toggle-id-12

find the Reason setup instructions there. the instructions are under the before 9.5 section (not sure why they felt the need to add other version sections, as the instructions are the same for all versions, if you’re trying to record MIDI into Reason).

basically the first step is to get your loopback installed and working. sounds like you’ve already done this. next, open the MIDI Guitar 2 app <<in standalone mode>>—this is critical! you never need to open it as a VST in Reason. at this point, you don’t even have to have Reason open.

in MIDI Guitar 2, you set the MIDI output to your loopback, whatever that’s named.

now you can open Reason. in Reason, under Preferences, set up the loopback as an input keyboard device. then you’re done. add an instrument to the rack, and select it in the sequencer—you should now be able to play your synth/instrument with the guitar!

you may need to change some of the audio input settings in MIDI Guitar 2—you should at the very least make sure the sampling frequency and buffer/latency settings match what you have set in Reason.

I just found this video, which shows how it’s done:

pretty simple, and again, no need for an EMI device.

[jetpilot00]

I have had the Fishman Triple Play for a couple of years. It is at my apartment studio right now but I will try to get some samples as soon as possible. It’s really, really good.

-JP

[rudiarii]

I would go for the TRipleplay ....it's an awesome bit of kit..

[Proboscis]

Does TriplePlay work nicely within the Reason platform, without the need for virtual cables etc ? And does it register pitch bends and hammer ons/pull offs at a decent playing speed ? That's really going to be the big sell point for me. It's not something I can consider right now, but maybe Santa will leave one under the xmas tree in a few months

Re - guitfnky

You have been most helpful. I don;t know why I thought the EMI played a part. But I've got it running using your suggestions. Not without other issues though. One, in that there are driver conflict issues (I know about the 'play in background' option, it's of no help - this problem is exclusive to my end though, there's a lot of weird things and overrides that happen since windows10), but I can at least disable Reason, or in another settings configuration turn down the volume as there are massive latency issues in monitoring. I'm still getting an extraordinary amount of signal 'noise' regardless of input gain settings, and irrespective of which of my guitars I use.

After many hours, I'm about to give up. But that's not to say I dont appreciate the tips in this thread. Thanks again to everyone.