WHY are you thinking of changing DAW? (if you are)

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
Popey
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Joined: 04 Jul 2018

Post 01 Sep 2019

Andy wrote:
31 Aug 2019
Probably figure they will teach Propellerhead a lesson by threatening to switch. This behavior appears with pretty much every new version of Reason.
I would be surprised if people thought threatening to switch would make a huge difference as r11 is announced already but perhaps people are thinking it may influence point updates. I am trialling a new daw now but my reasoning is more about protecting my investment in re's and ensuring long term legacy for using reason rack. No one knows for sure how the rack vst will go in regard to sales etc but it seems to have created a buzz on other sites so my guess is that it is likely to generate a lot of sales. I am assuming that people who purchase the vst rack will want to be able to use massive etc with the players devices so there will be development required on the vst, there is then going to also be more opportunity to sell re's so I believe it is also likely reason studios will concentrate on new devices and then there is also the reason daw itself that people expect to be improved all within a fairly small company. It is this that makes me wonder where reason will head in the future. There is also the potential for the investors to sell if large increases in short term revenue makes reason attractive enough for others to show interest and return profits on their investment. So basically fear of the unknown future has led me to trial a new daw and I am currently finding it very easy to work with. I can see myself purchasing the daw and using this along with reason 11 but who knows if I will then get future reason versions or re's, only time will tell.

Yonatan
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Post 01 Sep 2019

I hope more will also try out Reason as a DAW.
When thinking of the buzz about Rack as plugin, it is quite a good way to be considered by other music creators, together with change of name and logo.

For me, I hope that this marketing focus on Reason, getting some broader attention, was behind the launching and not the dooms day predictions on what it all really means for Reason onward, the end of it all.
Reason for all Seasons

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antic604
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Post 01 Sep 2019

electrofux wrote:
31 Aug 2019
Catblack wrote:
30 Aug 2019


I had wanted to to a separate post here with speculation on how Remote would work in the new VST. I think you (Reason devs) are missing a huge opportunity here. Although implementing Remote may slow the VST perhaps?

But no having it, and leaving out is the worse sort of usability nightmare. I know there are other VST plugins out there (like guitar pedalboard sims) that let you add things in and move them around, but I don't know if there's anything as flexible that will stack up devices like the reason rack.

I had been thinking that Reason VST would implement Reason devices in Remote and then let the community update for the Rack Extensions (like the BCR2000 or the Nektar series here.) So there'd be one official Remotemap and then one bigger unofficial...

...but that's why I was going to start a speculation thread. Because just thinking about how it would have to work... I can see that not implementing it at all might seem like the easiest solution. But I fear that in practice the user is going to have to set up (in their DAW) each combinator individually and there won't be any benefits (like grouping controls into pages) that the Remote system gives.

And so I suspect that the VST is going to be a major pain in the arse to control via midi. I'm looking forward to trying it out and seeing for myself. But I don't have much hope.

The exception to this is midi controllers that are using something like Novation's Automap or that new Nekatar interface -- which take the names exposed to the VST and map them to your device or computer screen. But for anything else... I'm seeing this as possibly a nightmare to use.

(And apologies for replying in this thread, I'm not changing DAW, but I will probably try another DAW or two and see what I've been missing out on.)
Since the announcement of the VST Rack i am really digging into the remote scripting abilities of other Daws. In the end it will come down to what the VST Rack exposes to the DAW and how it does that. How does the Rack handle multiple devices of the same type, how can you differenciate between them, how can you differenciate a Rack that has Europa in it and one that has Antidote (in Remote you can simply add a scope item, havent seen the possibility in other DAWs), how does it handle very high numbers of parameters (eg you load 4 Kongs and 4 Redrums), does it expose everything that has a remote item, if not which ones are exposed and what has the order of the devices has to do with it, what is the device that you want to control and what are only side/support devices?
Implementing Remote would circumvent alot of headaches. But there would also be other things to consider, as to what acutally is the selected device in a Rack that Remote has to act on (it is tied to the selected track in Reason but there is no such connection in other DAWs). There would be a need for additions to Remote and that seems to be a no go for years now. But even as it is it would help with locking codecs.
You're really overthinking it guys, or have been using nothing but Reason all your life. Rack VST is just that - a VST like Serum or Reactor and it exposes all the internal parameters to the host DAW. What you can do with those depends entirely on that DAWs controller scripting abilities and there's nothing Reason Studios (yuck, what a name...) can do about it.

All I know it's a breeze in Bitwig and I can do with Rack VST everything that I can with the rest of VSTs.
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Yonatan
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Post 01 Sep 2019

I will try the Rack plugin with Logic and I might test it with AbLive etc to see which feels a best combo. But with that said, I will probably still go Reason standalone most of the time.

AbLive often gets compared with Reason but a bit unfair as a lot of work in Reason REs and in the DAW is about visual user interface, making it compelling both in functions and for the eyes. ABLive has none of that extra mile whatsoever, they have a standard look and rest they can focus on the functions of the DAW.

I guess many love Reason much for its visual feel of the Rack. So all those will be happy switching DAW, getting the eye candy while latest midi/audio functions in more up-to-date DAWs. In the meantime I hope Reason as a whole DAW develops further in its own right, as it has the capacity for being a Master and not only being a Slave. To do both well is an art.
So I hope that RS listens not merly to those voices that now seem to say that Reason as a workstation could as well get retired. I feel I have to give voice to not abandon Reason as DAW or its sequencer or quitting on implementing new creative steps in its workflow. Not so extra massive things needs to ve done as some seem to say, but just focus on the ones that will benefit the wholeness.
The best is already inside, just needs a bit of this and that to tie take it to next level.
Using Blocks live would be one cool thing.
It would be such a waste not to build upon this.
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Zac
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Post 01 Sep 2019

Andy wrote:
31 Aug 2019
Probably figure they will teach Propellerhead a lesson by threatening to switch. This behavior appears with pretty much every new version of Reason.
I pretty much agree with what Popey said above^^

Now that I can access my REs via R11 Intro's VST in another DAW it's time for me to learn a DAW that has better MIDI implementation so I can use MIDI VSTs etc. The whole players thing and its use to get notes to track gives me the impression that they aren't going to open up MIDI like other DAWs do.

The workflow upgrades in R11 really just felt like crumbs to me so I'm going to hedge my bets now and learn another DAW. That way if R12 is disappointing for me too, I'm already comfortable with another DAW.

But fingers crossed R12 will be what I want and I can upgrade from R11 Intro to R12 full.
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ortxedys
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Post 01 Sep 2019

Andy wrote:
31 Aug 2019
Probably figure they will teach Propellerhead a lesson by threatening to switch. This behavior appears with pretty much every new version of Reason.
Seriously.. I usually don’t bother but a lot of people in this community love to compare features that other DAW’s have (yet they don’t use) and love to point out why Reason is “failing”. I simply see it as buyers remorse on their end. I’ve been happy with Reason from the moment I decided to hop on board. Yes, I have tried other DAW’s out of fearing the Reason way might not be the “way” in the past. But in the end I always came back because it simply works for me the best and there’s certain key features that are better implemented in Reason compared to its counterparts.

electrofux
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Post 01 Sep 2019

antic604 wrote:
01 Sep 2019
electrofux wrote:
31 Aug 2019


Since the announcement of the VST Rack i am really digging into the remote scripting abilities of other Daws. In the end it will come down to what the VST Rack exposes to the DAW and how it does that. How does the Rack handle multiple devices of the same type, how can you differenciate between them, how can you differenciate a Rack that has Europa in it and one that has Antidote (in Remote you can simply add a scope item, havent seen the possibility in other DAWs), how does it handle very high numbers of parameters (eg you load 4 Kongs and 4 Redrums), does it expose everything that has a remote item, if not which ones are exposed and what has the order of the devices has to do with it, what is the device that you want to control and what are only side/support devices?
Implementing Remote would circumvent alot of headaches. But there would also be other things to consider, as to what acutally is the selected device in a Rack that Remote has to act on (it is tied to the selected track in Reason but there is no such connection in other DAWs). There would be a need for additions to Remote and that seems to be a no go for years now. But even as it is it would help with locking codecs.
You're really overthinking it guys, or have been using nothing but Reason all your life. Rack VST is just that - a VST like Serum or Reactor and it exposes all the internal parameters to the host DAW. What you can do with those depends entirely on that DAWs controller scripting abilities and there's nothing Reason Studios (yuck, what a name...) can do about it.

All I know it's a breeze in Bitwig and I can do with Rack VST everything that I can with the rest of VSTs.
We are not overdoing it because we are used to Remote which is just a great way to program remote controllers and in many ways superior to the VST world. And Rack VST will not be like other Vsts because there can be ALOT more stuff that it is supposed to report to the DAW. I really hope they dont make any compromises there. I expect them to give us top notch integration because VST 3.0 offers alot but it must be implemented.

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antic604
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Post 01 Sep 2019

electrofux wrote:
01 Sep 2019
We are not overdoing it because we are used to Remote which is just a great way to program remote controllers and in many ways superior to the VST world. And Rack VST will not be like other Vsts because there can be ALOT more stuff that it is supposed to report to the DAW. I really hope they dont make any compromises there. I expect them to give us top notch integration because VST 3.0 offers alot but it must be implemented.
I'm sorry, but yes - you're overthinking it. Rack VST is just that - a Reason rack in VST format, which means all you have access to is parameters of the devices within (and last I checked I saw ~4000 automatable perameters in Rack VST hosted in Bitwig). Every DAW has their way of accessing VST parameters and that is what you'll have to use. There's nothing Props can - or really, should
- do. You won't be able, or have to, control Reason's transport, mixer, etc. It's just devices and their parameters.
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Boombastix
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Post 01 Sep 2019

ortxedys wrote:
01 Sep 2019
Andy wrote:
31 Aug 2019
Probably figure they will teach Propellerhead a lesson by threatening to switch. This behavior appears with pretty much every new version of Reason.
Seriously.. I usually don’t bother but a lot of people in this community love to compare features that other DAW’s have (yet they don’t use) and love to point out why Reason is “failing”. I simply see it as buyers remorse on their end. I’ve been happy with Reason from the moment I decided to hop on board. Yes, I have tried other DAW’s out of fearing the Reason way might not be the “way” in the past. But in the end I always came back because it simply works for me the best and there’s certain key features that are better implemented in Reason compared to its counterparts.
Well, reality is YouTubers drive marketing for DAWs and VSTs companies and these "influencers" are important. That is why NI brings 8 or 10 of them over to Berlin to hang out etc and they get a ton of videos out of it. In the last 1-2 years fewer and fewer YouTubers make Reason videos consistently, and some of the most consistent ones have changed DAWs. Now there is almost none left that showcases Reason together with the style of music they are interested in, FL Studio and Abelton on the other hand dominate this space. Maschine/Cubase/Studio 1 get their share too.
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Andy
Posts: 57
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Post 01 Sep 2019

Boombastix wrote:
01 Sep 2019
ortxedys wrote:
01 Sep 2019


Seriously.. I usually don’t bother but a lot of people in this community love to compare features that other DAW’s have (yet they don’t use) and love to point out why Reason is “failing”. I simply see it as buyers remorse on their end. I’ve been happy with Reason from the moment I decided to hop on board. Yes, I have tried other DAW’s out of fearing the Reason way might not be the “way” in the past. But in the end I always came back because it simply works for me the best and there’s certain key features that are better implemented in Reason compared to its counterparts.
Well, reality is YouTubers drive marketing for DAWs and VSTs companies and these "influencers" are important. That is why NI brings 8 or 10 of them over to Berlin to hang out etc and they get a ton of videos out of it. In the last 1-2 years fewer and fewer YouTubers make Reason videos consistently, and some of the most consistent ones have changed DAWs. Now there is almost none left that showcases Reason together with the style of music they are interested in, FL Studio and Abelton on the other hand dominate this space. Maschine/Cubase/Studio 1 get their share too.
I must say I cannot stand this “influencer” nonsense but I get that many people do listen to them. Reason Studios can do the same by inviting these “influencers” as well. Its not like these people are loyal to any brand.

2chris
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Post 01 Sep 2019

What sucked me into Reason 1.0 was the instruments and UI. It made sense to me and I was productive. When they had the whole record fiasco I was done and switched to Live and never looked back. It taught me early on to never be loyal to a company, be loyal to your needs and value. Version 10 finally brought me back because of the great instruments, promo price, and not requiring a USB key by having online authorization.

I don’t regret buying a license and using it. It’s great. I’ve made songs I enjoy in it, and I often make loops I bring into Live. Reason can be frustrating, but it’s more fun than frustrating. This update is cool for me because I prefer Live, and eventually I’ll use it as a plugin. I don’t expect much from RS as a daw because they need more programmers and focus. That’s not happening when they can make more money selling stuff al a carte. The team they have are smart and talented people, and I love their instruments. Realistically, there are only a few devs that can beat them on instruments (NI, Xfer, Uhe, Synapse, Spectrasonics). The fact you get those instruments competitive with companies doing only that, a daw, interesting ui if not a little dated on resolution, great fx, and interesting content - you guys are being hard on the team behind the product.

The main reason I won’t use it as my main DAW is that I find it hard to be organized, it’s missing features I rely on like freeze and audio editing/quick warping, clip launching, and the sequencer needs more than what 11 has added IMO. Those aren’t deal breakers toward being happy with it and making great music and recognizing the immense talent of the developers.

My suggestion is if you are serious about your music where it’s part of your job, you must have multiple DAW’s and support people working in many environment. Props are leaders in this and Rewire shows that. This is the next step. Which second DAW to consider depends on people you work with, and things you need for your workflow.

If you do EDM you need Ableton Live to work with people probably if you want to share tracks, and it’s workflow is the best in the business. It’s a classic example of how more features don’t equal the best daw. Many have more features, but I wouldn’t replace them. I bought Cubase 10, and while I like it so far, it’s way more feature rich but clunkier. Part of that is knowing a daw, and part of it is just having to menu dive.

If you’re on a Mac, Logic makes a ton of sense. It’s instruments besides Alchemy are a weakness, and Reason will be a formidable pairing with it once support. It has serious sequencing options, great audio recording and metering, and it comes with a lot of cool plugins.

If you want the best recording features on a cross platform basis, consider Cubase or Studio One. Similar to how many of the Ableton guys left to make Bitwig, a lot of the Cubase team left for Presonus. They are similar programs, with Cubase having more features for midi by far, and Studio One focusing more on Audio/recording by chasing some of the Protools crowd and features. I liked both but I added Cubase because I got it so cheap in the anniversary sale, and because I value the midi features over audio features.

Finally, it you want a daw more similar to the base ideas of Reason to get making music quickly with good instruments consider Live, Bitwig, and FL Studio. Live is my favorite DAW, but Bitwig is going toward a modular approach, has plugin sandboxing, and some other great things while also running on Linux. If you know Live you can pick it up quickly. FL Studio personally isn’t appealing to me, but it does some things awesome. You get lifetime updates, they have some decent synths/tools/FX, the ui has finally improved, and the piano roll and midi features are actually great.

So consider another daw because you can find a deal and you like the workflow or instruments in another DAW. Do don’t it because you are angry at a company making a business decision that makes sense for them to expand into giving great instruments within other environments.

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Oquasec
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Post 01 Sep 2019

Using Reason as a vst inside FL Studio will never change for me.
I'm fine with it being like that.
Producer/Sound Designer.
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FL & Reason 11.

Nielsen
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Post 01 Sep 2019

I recently added Logic to my collection because Reason doesn't support VST 3.0. I know there are workaround application for this, but I try to avoid potential headaches like that.

This doesn't mean I have switched DAW, but rather that one supplements the other. This probably becomes even more true when I can justify upgrading Reason, and thereby get access to the Reason Rack Plugin (also waiting for AU compatibility). Anyway, between Logic and Reason I prefer the workflow of the latter. It just ignites a creative spark that Logic doesn't in the same way.

exxx
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Post 02 Sep 2019

It doesn't seem normal to appeal to automation updates as regular updates in 2019.

Yonatan
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Post 02 Sep 2019

Reason lack the most when doing a more dounting task or recording/producing for others with many audio and midi tracks and editing work. I still think Reason has better layout but it just lack many functionalities.

It is ok when you play with it in limited tracks by youselves, coming up with ideas and you can build onto that, but then at a later stage, it kind of hits the wall of limitations. You can reach the goal with it and many workarounds, but if you often do more full productions for others, the slow update rate to workflow functions, gets really inhibiting.

But the good side of it is that it is doable to implement many of these not too big fixes that bring Reason much higher than the individual fixes per se. But good gods that in the meantime we now can get the flexibility of using our well known RE in other workstations whenever needed it. Dream is still to one day do it all in Reason. Might be naive but it just has that ordered layout that apeals to my mind.
Many other daws feels cluttered and not always intuitive, with some exception.
So it is good that RS think through an extra time before adding in whatever however. To keep it streamlined and intuitive. But some functions are just workflow savers and need be added.
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Boombastix
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Post 02 Sep 2019

2chris wrote:
01 Sep 2019
If you want the best recording features on a cross platform basis, consider Cubase or Studio One. Similar to how many of the Ableton guys left to make Bitwig, a lot of the Cubase team left for Presonus. They are similar programs, with Cubase having more features for midi by far, and Studio One focusing more on Audio/recording by chasing some of the Protools crowd and features. I liked both but I added Cubase because I got it so cheap in the anniversary sale, and because I value the midi features over audio features.
I got Cubase in the crossgrade sale and will start to work learning it with Reason as a VST. That will be fantastic. Being able to work with vocals is important to me. I think Cubase beats Studio One in that department. Cubase Variaudio is built on Zplane, so it sounds great. Studio One requires a Melodyne upgrade and a separate Audio align upgrade to match that, I think that is around $400 extra. But I agree that Cubase feels a bit daunting as it has so many features. I will take time to master, but hey, for fast workflow just throw in a Rack :D
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mcatalao
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Post 02 Sep 2019

guitfnky wrote:
28 Aug 2019
because Props are implying I should.
No. Actually you're implying they're implying you should.

electrofux
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Post 02 Sep 2019

antic604 wrote:
01 Sep 2019
electrofux wrote:
01 Sep 2019
We are not overdoing it because we are used to Remote which is just a great way to program remote controllers and in many ways superior to the VST world. And Rack VST will not be like other Vsts because there can be ALOT more stuff that it is supposed to report to the DAW. I really hope they dont make any compromises there. I expect them to give us top notch integration because VST 3.0 offers alot but it must be implemented.
I'm sorry, but yes - you're overthinking it. Rack VST is just that - a Reason rack in VST format, which means all you have access to is parameters of the devices within (and last I checked I saw ~4000 automatable perameters in Rack VST hosted in Bitwig). Every DAW has their way of accessing VST parameters and that is what you'll have to use. There's nothing Props can - or really, should
- do. You won't be able, or have to, control Reason's transport, mixer, etc. It's just devices and their parameters.
I am not talking about transport or the Mixer as they won't be present in a Rack. But you can easily rise above 4000 automatable paramters in a Rack- thats nothing for complex Combinators with a couple of Thors (1 Kong has 1400 parameters, 1 Thor 400). Not that you need all of them but you might need the very last. And in VST 3.0 there are options to help organising parameters that can or cannot be implemented like:

Logical parameter organization

The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus.

or

VSTXML for remote controllers

Remote controllers for audio and MIDI software applications have become increasingly popular. With VSTXML, VST3 offers far more flexible control of VST plug-ins by remote controllers. Using the knobs and faders on the control surface, parameters can be recorded, renamed and edited in many ways. Parameters that cannot be edited can be routed for display purposes to the control surface, for example to show Gain Reduction on compressor.

I tried the VeeSee VSV Rack Plugin (it is VST 2 only) and it implements 10000 not named parameters. 10000 is good but might not be enough. Not named probably because it is dynamic which parameters are there. I also wasnt able to tweak the parameter and it shows up which probably needs a named connection, the other way around worked but it was guesswork. Now this is a community developed Plugin so Props will do it better but it shows how stuff could be implemented.

All i am saying Rack VST is not like any other VST and how they implement it will have impact on wether it is a half done job or a very good one.

scratchnsnifff
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Post 02 Sep 2019

I will never permanently switch. But I got ableton suite because I mainly wanted to try it out for live DJ’ing

So now this Reason update should by all means let me use my Re’s like distillery and my other air raid audio products :D


I love music technology!
I get that most people stick with one platform in this neck of the woods, but as a hardcore reason user that has mildly branched out, I’m glad to report that there is nothing wrong with having a second platform


The two definitely compliment each other, luckily the new update will allow such an easy way to pull up my RE collection


Hopefully the update allows multiple instances and refills

I love me Rex player :D
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antic604
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Post 02 Sep 2019

electrofux wrote:
02 Sep 2019
Logical parameter organization

The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus.
Well, perhaps it's a Reason thing, then. In Bitwig, if I want to automate something I touch the control with my mouse and it pops up to the top of the list - I don't have to look for it, even if there are 4k parameters. If I want to assign a knob or slider I right click the parameter, chose "map to MIDI" (or something like that), move the knob / fader and done.

I don't really see a need for any particular scripting for Rack VST.
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electrofux
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Post 02 Sep 2019

antic604 wrote:
02 Sep 2019
electrofux wrote:
02 Sep 2019
Logical parameter organization

The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus.
Well, perhaps it's a Reason thing, then. In Bitwig, if I want to automate something I touch the control with my mouse and it pops up to the top of the list - I don't have to look for it, even if there are 4k parameters. If I want to assign a knob or slider I right click the parameter, chose "map to MIDI" (or something like that), move the knob / fader and done.

I don't really see a need for any particular scripting for Rack VST.
If you only use your mouse or can live with the equivalent of Reason remote override system then you dont need a script. But if you want to utilize an advanced Midi Controller like Push, Launpad Pro what have you then you are reliant on a proper VST 3.0 implementation or all you get is a mess. I am talking remote control mainly and not automation.

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reddust
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Post 02 Sep 2019

I'm personally not thinking about changing my DAW and will stay with Reason for now. The upcoming update opens the door to work with a second DAW, which might be interesting and a reason why some people are now talking about other DAWs more than before.

I've been thinking of making some use of Ableton Live myself because I used to work on that DAW years ago and I liked it, but at that point it had some limitations I didn't feel comfortable with. I don't know what the standpoint of those limitations these days is, but as far as Reason covers most of my needs I'm not thinking too much about this.

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guitfnky
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Post 02 Sep 2019

mcatalao wrote:
02 Sep 2019
guitfnky wrote:
28 Aug 2019
because Props are implying I should.
No. Actually you're implying they're implying you should.
no. actually, I’m outright saying they’re implying I should.

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Zac
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Post 02 Sep 2019

guitfnky wrote:
02 Sep 2019
mcatalao wrote:
02 Sep 2019


No. Actually you're implying they're implying you should.
no. actually, I’m outright saying they’re implying I should.
Agreed. I was always good at picking up on lecturer's hints about what might be on exam papers. And after watching and reading all the props said in the R11 announcements I picked up that implication.

I know MattiasHG said in his blog that development of the DAW will continue but that sounded like a fart in a hurricane to me.
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antic604
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Post 02 Sep 2019

electrofux wrote:
02 Sep 2019
If you only use your mouse or can live with the equivalent of Reason remote override system then you dont need a script. But if you want to utilize an advanced Midi Controller like Push, Launpad Pro what have you then you are reliant on a proper VST 3.0 implementation or all you get is a mess. I am talking remote control mainly and not automation.
I use Push2 and Akai Mpk Mini Mk2 with Bitwig and scripting is done on the DAW level, not the plugin level - thus is universal for whatever plugins (or native devices) I need to use. I don't have to have separate scripts form NI, Waves, Arturia, Fabfilter, etc. in the same way I won't need it for Reason Rack VST.
Bitwig 3 // Reason 10 // Cubase Pro 10 @ Lenovo Y730 15'' i7-8750h
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

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