WHY are you thinking of changing DAW? (if you are)

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
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Zac
Posts: 1447
Joined: 19 May 2016

Post 28 Aug 2019

Biolumin3sc3nt wrote:
28 Aug 2019
Zac wrote:
28 Aug 2019


You sound angry?

I buy R11 Intro with my account and sell my full R10 license. I can use all of my REs (very many) in R11 Intro and in the Reason VST in my new DAW. And yes, Antic was right, I want to use MIDI VSTs in my new DAW because I can't use them in Reason.

Is this OK with you?
I absolutely misread your post by a mile!

Got back from Intensive Care this afternoon and Yeah I was upset with the World in general.

Please forgive Me!
Hey man, sorry to hear that. Hope you get better soon and no worries, I'd be upset after being in IC!
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reggie1979
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Post 28 Aug 2019

Right on guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!

itspeaking
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Joined: 25 Jun 2019

Post 28 Aug 2019

With the entire rack available as a VST, I might consider selling my license as well and just going Intro version, but I am hard pressed to replace that SSL console.

Gain, eq, filters, dynamics all ready to go. Took a look at Logic’s mixer and, yeah, want a compressor? Got to load it. Want a low pass? Load it. High pass. Load it. You get the point..

Everything I need to mix is already to go without needing templates (which is never a one-size fits all), or loading a million plugins causing over-head issues. I think this is why I will continue to mix in Reason and also made me realize I am not overly-enthusiastic about this update or it’s timing (less than a few months after I just bought into Reason as a new users).

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Faastwalker
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Post 28 Aug 2019

I'm not. But it got me thinking. Is it wise to have a couple of options on the go? Like maybe your bread & butter, go to, get the job done, stable, fun, not going anywhere anytime soon DAW ................ and Reason. Reason's future just feels on edge to me. It's like a politician - you just don't know what the f**k is going to happen next anymore! There's some questionable decisions with the platforms direction, the failing support for RE, the failed venture into hardware, the partnership with the venture capital vultures, Ernst calling it a day, dropping Propellerhead in favor of 'Reason Studios' (??!!). I'm sure other common DAWs are beset with their own issues & dramas. But why does something like Ableton Live feel like it will be here longer than I am & Reason makes me feel a bit uneasy & concerned for the immediate future? :(

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Reasonable man
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Post 28 Aug 2019

Maybe i picked up the R11 video wrong but i dont think so ....but the Daw dosn't seem to be going anywhere. They have no plans for it to be competitive therefore less people (professionals) are going to use it which means the less relevent it actually is going to be.This is going to be very important in the future.
They're changing the perception of their own Daw as a starter or sketch pad for when you use a real Daw. I honestly thought they were going to add the features that were missing but i relly dont think they are now. Either its not cost effective or they dont have the resourses or they have hit sdk or coding brick walls where its maybe not even possible to implement the changes that reason needs to be competitive (even though i was under the impression they were doing well .. maybe not)
I had to use Rewire twice when i had to use logic (cracked version) when i first started production cause of the mp4 video feature that reason dosn't have. i hated it and i knew that if i had to do that again i would just write/use the instruments i needed from reason and just bounce the audio stems into the video daw (logic) and save myself a full day. This seems seamless to me as if things were slighly out of time they could be fixed by editing the audio later. What people dont mention about Rewiew is that it was/is a cpu killer. I feel the same about the rack vst ..i'd rather use the instruments that come with a different daw and save up for Native Instruments as that is going to be a safer more relevent and compatable way forward.
Reason is now going to be competing with the like of N.I and i just cant see how thats going to work out for them .....quite happy to be proved wrong here but expecting newbies to buy reason for the rack vst , learn the wiring for the rack ,then buy the Re's that they need to fill the rack (cause they sure as hell wont be loading up subtarctors) ..etc when all that time they can just use native intruments and their own vst already!
And the comapany are giving up their identity and competitiveness and i think ultimatley relevence for this ? Its more than odd.
Sorry i didn't men to bore everyone who actaully read this post by repeating myself again but maybe if you use the analogy of a singer songwriter who is a good singer and lyricst but they're knowlede of music is just lacking a little bit . Do you correct this by knuckling down and improving your knowlwdw/weakness? or do you say no ..i'l find a collaborator to write the music for me ..from now on i'm a singer/lyricist only.
Maybe business is all about playing to your strengths and completley illiminating your weakness . I feel the business plan is to phase out the DAW (Reason vst only needs a rack/combi) and become a a sort of N.I for 3rd pary developers who make Re's with lots of ins/out son the back.

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Boombastix
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Location: Bay Area, CA

Post 28 Aug 2019

This is how I see it:
  • Failing support for RE - they launched the new SDK with the Gorilla Engine, made Umpf and more with it. The Ujam Bass players are made with it. Loopmasters two VSTs are made with it. I think the RE dev support is probably stronger than ever. Plus RE dev's may now get new markets to sell to, user of other DAWs using the new Rack VST.
  • The HW and Europa on the Web stuff - I have no #¤%&@$ idea why they did that when they really need to spend resources catching up - agree seems like a bad diversion.
  • Ernst leaving after 25-ish? years, well the time will eventually come and he needs to sell it to someone. Probably also the reason why they had to ditch Allihopa that was bleeding money - a good thing - fever diversions.
  • New name - just a new CEO just putting his stamp on it - very normal, means nothing more than that. The old logo was iconic, nobody cares about Presonus/Cubase/Abelton's logo, nobody will care about the new logo - but not a deal breaker
  • They need to work on R11 Rack VST and fix the issues that has been pointed out.
  • They probably need to ditch part of their focus group or "early testers" so new features are 100%, not 85% and only half usable. That is a job for the CEO. So we got nice automation curves, can we save them auto clips and load them up in another song? If not...then that's why they need different focus group to tell them those obvious things.
  • The new CEO also must figure out how Presonus Studio 1 who also needed to catch up is able to churn out around 40 updates for 4.0, another 40 for 4.1 another 40 for 4.5 (approx) - that was an impressive catch up. But PH does around 20% (?) of that. Question is why, and how can PH be on par
  • They probably need to make the Rack VST low cost to get new users into the platform who will start to buy REs, thus attracting new developers to make more REs. Sure $99 isn't bad, since you get Europa, Thor and so on, but I'm thinking a Rack VST only (no sequencer) for $49 with a handful of REs to justify the price. I mean most entry level DAWs come bundled for free, should be easy to figure out the right packaging/price point
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fretshot7
Posts: 300
Joined: 02 Apr 2018

Post 28 Aug 2019

Well I have started my free trial of Studio One.
Been in it for a few hours now, so can't say too much it does look like the dog fkn bollox but then so does Reason.

electrofux
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Joined: 21 Jan 2015

Post 29 Aug 2019

I am already looking into Bitwig as it has a pretty good remote scripting API which is really important to me and i love Reason for the Remote SDK. Now that i have looked into how other DAWs do it, i have to say Remote is just great even though it is lacking some stuff that the others have (like remoting next to all system commands, the Sequencer and the Browser). But when it comes to remote controlling devices it is gold.
My hopes though for using the Bitwig API to control the Reason VST Rack in nearly the same manner as in Reason with Remote are not high.
But wait and see what items/parameters turn up in the Bitwig device window when i first load a fully loaded Rack with an equivalent of a couple of thousands remote items, some double because of double devices. How do you distinguish them, how do you distinguish different Racks. There are alot of questions. At least it showed all 1k or so parameters of the Avenger Plugin.
For the VST Rack they need to do a very good job in that area. EG the way he described how it works with Ableton (like turning a know in the Rack and then the parameter shows up in Ableton) is already bound to a 128 parameter restriction, though the Ableton API is deep and something might be hidden there. But with Ableton the whole API is hidden from the users as opposed to Bitwig.
Matthias also already mentioned no Midi Out which is a bummer as it means no Midi To track (again) for all the cool Reason Sequencers.

I would be happy if you load a Rack and it shows all parameters that are currently available as remote items even if there are alot, names them if there duplicates and you have a means to distinguish different Racks so that you dont have to switch maps when you load a Rack with Antidote or one with Europa. And Midi Out of course. I think THEN i would switch but would come back if Reason had a Clip Launcher itself.

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jetpilot00
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Post 30 Aug 2019

I left Reason for a few years while I had really young kids. I ended up getting Studio One v3.5 in 2017 specifically for the dedicated hardware support, not Reason. However, I found out that no matter how integrated the Faderport 16 is, Studio One isn’t Reason.

Now, two years later, I am more creative and have a hell of a lot more fun with Reason. Studio One is great....but it’s not Reason.

My setup now is a Panorama P6 at my apartment studio and a P1 with an 88 key keyboard in my home studio with UAD interfaces and the Plugin Alliance subscription and I couldn’t be happier. Here’s why:

I think I fully understand the Reason Studios’ business model. Decisions can not be as dynamic as some of you might want. A company like Reason Studios can’t possibly be expected to perform software changes at a pace that much bigger companies can do it. I have accepted that the features I need already exist in Reason and anything else added just makes it better. I have quit searching for what, I thought, I might want and realized that, for me, it was more important to learn, and use, what I know best.

I started this journey in 1991, when I was 21, with hardware and have since used Cakewalk, Pro Tools, Cubase, Sonar, Live and Reason. I am now almost 50 and feel like I’ve wasted so much time chasing features and the “it” factor.

My goal now is to submit the most kick-ass, hard rock music I can muster for anyone that would like to hear it and it’s going to be done 100% in Reason. I understand that my opinion is just one of thousands and we all work differently but we all want to have fun. I’m having more fun in Reason now than I have ever had.

No matter your journey, it should always be fun.

-JP
***If life is a song, I've just passed the guitar solo.***

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Kilsane
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Location: Villeneuve saint Georges - France

Post 30 Aug 2019

Hi,

I do not change DAW, I already have FL Studio and Ableton live, I could just now load my RE and ReFille preferred elsewhere.

In my opinion, the sequencer of reason is enough for me, it does what it has to do and does it well, there is just some small function that could be added (I specify for my use).
Have a good day everybody

fretshot7
Posts: 300
Joined: 02 Apr 2018

Post 30 Aug 2019

Yeah i don't think im gonna get a 2nd DAW anymore. Been trying Studio One and its really good, but I prefer Reason and what's the rush? I think ill stick to R10.... maybe get R11 if there is deals later down the line but as it stands there isn't much in there to make me part with the upgrade price. I was content with R10 that doesnt have to change because R11 comes out.

denoise78
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Joined: 09 Sep 2015

Post 30 Aug 2019

Because I use very often external hardware in my path and in Reason there is no latency compensation for external hardware (like the External Instrument device in Ableton). Pretty basic stuff!

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Catblack
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Post 30 Aug 2019

MattiasHG wrote:
28 Aug 2019

No MIDI Out in the first version, but it's definitely being considered. Remote is not present, for VSTs DAWs generally handle hardware and MIDI control. You can automate parameters via the host, it works differently in every host and we're not 100% done with implementation but in Live, for example, you can turn rotaries to "learn" them in Live's interface etc.
I had wanted to to a separate post here with speculation on how Remote would work in the new VST. I think you (Reason devs) are missing a huge opportunity here. Although implementing Remote may slow the VST perhaps?

But no having it, and leaving out is the worse sort of usability nightmare. I know there are other VST plugins out there (like guitar pedalboard sims) that let you add things in and move them around, but I don't know if there's anything as flexible that will stack up devices like the reason rack.

I had been thinking that Reason VST would implement Reason devices in Remote and then let the community update for the Rack Extensions (like the BCR2000 or the Nektar series here.) So there'd be one official Remotemap and then one bigger unofficial...

...but that's why I was going to start a speculation thread. Because just thinking about how it would have to work... I can see that not implementing it at all might seem like the easiest solution. But I fear that in practice the user is going to have to set up (in their DAW) each combinator individually and there won't be any benefits (like grouping controls into pages) that the Remote system gives.

And so I suspect that the VST is going to be a major pain in the arse to control via midi. I'm looking forward to trying it out and seeing for myself. But I don't have much hope.

The exception to this is midi controllers that are using something like Novation's Automap or that new Nekatar interface -- which take the names exposed to the VST and map them to your device or computer screen. But for anything else... I'm seeing this as possibly a nightmare to use.

(And apologies for replying in this thread, I'm not changing DAW, but I will probably try another DAW or two and see what I've been missing out on.)
If you ain't hip to the rare Housequake, shut up already.

Damn.

Yonatan
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Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 30 Aug 2019

For me, I love the Reason work space and want to use it as much as possible. But also have Logic X that have been collecting dust because of this. Rewire did not seem good enough when not seamless. Logic has a huge amount of instruments and effects and I already bought a lot RE and knows them quite good now, so actually I see a bridge here to blend these two DAWs together now and then, more often than hitherto.
But I personally would guess that I will not switch completely over to Logic. I really like sequencer and the workflow of browser etc inside Reason.

Best of 2 workstations is getting a bit easier now. And to be honest, use Logic for some stuff where Reason has not caught up on yet.
I hope to see Reason develop further on, and one day I will not need to use any other DAW.
If that is wishful thinking at least I can use the best of 2 Workstations alongside.
Reason for all Seasons

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Wobbleburger
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Joined: 14 Sep 2018
Location: Austin

Post 30 Aug 2019

Raveshaper wrote:
28 Aug 2019
For me, the reasons for moving on are basic.
  1. Less toxic culture
  2. Better return on investment
  3. Standardized best practices
  4. More results
  5. It fits my way of working better
Nothing fancy.

If I had to get specific beyond that, I simply don't have infinite time to waste on something that isn't working for me.
My time is valuable and I'm going to go where that is respected and honestly supported.

EDIT:
In response to OP's question on how long I've used Reason, etc., 11 has nothing to do with my decision. I have spent more time trying in vain to get Reason to work for me than against me, rather than making music with it. Over the past 2 years I haven't been able to bring myself to even open the app at all. It doesn't inspire me.
These are pretty great reasons. I've run into a lot of toxicity in this community too... Especially on the Facebook groups (which I promptly left). I really wonder why that is. I love Reason. With the option to use it as a VST, I've looked into Reaper and others. I probably won't switch until I have a sure shot reason to. I can 'get it done' in Reason, so I don't want to lose creative time having to learn another DAW. Ableton just didn't make sense to me.
I like jungle.

Reason 10 - Win10 - i7 9700k - 32gb DDR4 - Novation Launchkey 25 - Korg Nanokontrol 2 - Scarlet 2i2 2nd Gen - Shure SM58 - Currently obsessed with Phase Plant

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Raveshaper
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 30 Aug 2019

Wobbleburger wrote:
30 Aug 2019
These are pretty great reasons. I've run into a lot of toxicity in this community too... Especially on the Facebook groups (which I promptly left). I really wonder why that is. I love Reason. With the option to use it as a VST, I've looked into Reaper and others. I probably won't switch until I have a sure shot reason to. I can 'get it done' in Reason, so I don't want to lose creative time having to learn another DAW. Ableton just didn't make sense to me.
Three primary causes for the anger/toxicity:
  1. Lack of economic means to afford and learn other programs.
  2. Being asked to repeatedly buy things we already own.
  3. Closure of the official user community
A lot of reason users are typically toward the bottom end of the wage scale. Not being able to choose because it costs too much can make a person feel trapped and frustrated.

There's no denying that when you upgrade, you're basically buying what you already have. Before, that came in the form of purchasing smaller and smaller differences in a program that almost entirely stayed the same as it was before, at a fixed price. The difference was smaller and smaller but the price didn't change. Now, it's overtly having to repurchase any and all extensions that are included in the new update, but you may have already bought. If you already don't have a lot of money and are frustrated, buying what you already have can feel insulting.

A company closing its doors to the official community is just degrading. It clearly communicated that it wasn't valued or a priority. That should spell death for any company, but people stay because they can't afford to leave. That, and the need to actually invest time into learning how to get started in other, better tools is mistaken for being worse than not having to read a manual to use a slower, outdated, more frustrating and predatory product.

Those other apps aren't worse, they just make seasoned users of reason confront the uncomfortable reality that all their years of isolation away from modern tools has completely unprepared them for what's over the garden wall. They have to start over, feeling somewhat the fool for having wasted so much time. It sucks to go through that, so they cancel their trial and come back where they aren't foolish, they're knowledgeable.

Not everybody is broke, not everybody wishes they could leave but don't because it's harder to learn something else. But a lot of people fit this description. And they're pissed they have to re-buy what they already have.
:reason: :ignition: :re: :refillpacker: Enhanced by DataBridge v5

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boingy
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Joined: 01 Feb 2019

Post 31 Aug 2019

Raveshaper wrote:
30 Aug 2019
A lot of reason users are typically toward the bottom end of the wage scale.
Wow. That really is a fake assumption. :roll:

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MrFigg
Posts: 2563
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 31 Aug 2019

boingy wrote:
31 Aug 2019
Raveshaper wrote:
30 Aug 2019
A lot of reason users are typically toward the bottom end of the wage scale.
Wow. That really is a fake assumption. :roll:
Hahahahaha. Start a poll :).

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Ixus
Posts: 228
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 31 Aug 2019

I'm trialing Studio One 4.5 and already own v3. It feels really fresh and its actually fun learning something new after using Reason exclusively since i began making music. I just feel Reason hasn't really gone anywhere the last few years.

I dont really feel any betrayal or anger or anything like that. I might not even make the switch but im heavily leaning towards it. I don't regret having used Reason at all though, many fun times was had. In the end its just a tool for making your musical dreams a reality so just pick what fits you :)!

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xylyx
Posts: 169
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

Post 31 Aug 2019

Raveshaper wrote:
30 Aug 2019

There's no denying that when you upgrade, you're basically buying what you already have.
This is something that bothers me about the current upgrade pricing for R11. To me, there should be an option if you are a R10 owner, to be able to buy just the Rack plugin at a cheaper price, probably around the same price as Intro. Once the plugin is available, I highly doubt I will use the standalone Reason anymore, as the last few updates just haven't brought the features I've wanted. To have pay £130 for just the Rack plugin (I don't care about the new fx that are being added) is a bit rich - if I choose to go Intro, then I lose stuff like Grain and Synchronous, which I paid for in previous updates! It is unlikely to happen but I hope they consider the Rack plugin only upgrade - there are still some REs I would like to buy in future, so they could get generate some good will by doing this...

electrofux
Posts: 634
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

Post 31 Aug 2019

Catblack wrote:
30 Aug 2019
MattiasHG wrote:
28 Aug 2019

No MIDI Out in the first version, but it's definitely being considered. Remote is not present, for VSTs DAWs generally handle hardware and MIDI control. You can automate parameters via the host, it works differently in every host and we're not 100% done with implementation but in Live, for example, you can turn rotaries to "learn" them in Live's interface etc.
I had wanted to to a separate post here with speculation on how Remote would work in the new VST. I think you (Reason devs) are missing a huge opportunity here. Although implementing Remote may slow the VST perhaps?

But no having it, and leaving out is the worse sort of usability nightmare. I know there are other VST plugins out there (like guitar pedalboard sims) that let you add things in and move them around, but I don't know if there's anything as flexible that will stack up devices like the reason rack.

I had been thinking that Reason VST would implement Reason devices in Remote and then let the community update for the Rack Extensions (like the BCR2000 or the Nektar series here.) So there'd be one official Remotemap and then one bigger unofficial...

...but that's why I was going to start a speculation thread. Because just thinking about how it would have to work... I can see that not implementing it at all might seem like the easiest solution. But I fear that in practice the user is going to have to set up (in their DAW) each combinator individually and there won't be any benefits (like grouping controls into pages) that the Remote system gives.

And so I suspect that the VST is going to be a major pain in the arse to control via midi. I'm looking forward to trying it out and seeing for myself. But I don't have much hope.

The exception to this is midi controllers that are using something like Novation's Automap or that new Nekatar interface -- which take the names exposed to the VST and map them to your device or computer screen. But for anything else... I'm seeing this as possibly a nightmare to use.

(And apologies for replying in this thread, I'm not changing DAW, but I will probably try another DAW or two and see what I've been missing out on.)
Since the announcement of the VST Rack i am really digging into the remote scripting abilities of other Daws. In the end it will come down to what the VST Rack exposes to the DAW and how it does that. How does the Rack handle multiple devices of the same type, how can you differenciate between them, how can you differenciate a Rack that has Europa in it and one that has Antidote (in Remote you can simply add a scope item, havent seen the possibility in other DAWs), how does it handle very high numbers of parameters (eg you load 4 Kongs and 4 Redrums), does it expose everything that has a remote item, if not which ones are exposed and what has the order of the devices has to do with it, what is the device that you want to control and what are only side/support devices?
Implementing Remote would circumvent alot of headaches. But there would also be other things to consider, as to what acutally is the selected device in a Rack that Remote has to act on (it is tied to the selected track in Reason but there is no such connection in other DAWs). There would be a need for additions to Remote and that seems to be a no go for years now. But even as it is it would help with locking codecs.

jlgrimes
Posts: 337
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

Post 31 Aug 2019

Reason 11 biggest promotion is being able to use it in another DAW.

Makes a user think they are missing something.

It got me thinking of using other programs. (I already use Ableton), but these days there are even decent free(very cheap) DAWS, that should work with Reason 11 (Reaper, Cakewalk, T7)

Reaper is a good audio program but never really cared for the midi implementation (but it is highly customizable)

reggie1979
Posts: 817
Joined: 11 Apr 2019

Post 31 Aug 2019

GAS has to be mentioned. It's sexy to cheat.

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Oquasec
Posts: 2392
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

Post 31 Aug 2019

Rewire is gone, and Reason is advertised as a VST basically.
Producer/Sound Designer.
Currently checking out peff & hydlide's archives.
FL & Reason 11.

Andy
Posts: 57
Joined: 03 May 2017

Post 31 Aug 2019

Probably figure they will teach Propellerhead a lesson by threatening to switch. This behavior appears with pretty much every new version of Reason.

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