Converting Unipolar CV to Bipolar

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Lempface
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Post 28 Aug 2019

O1B wrote:
28 Aug 2019
Sorry, Dude... see the image ... INVERTED is TOP RIGHT.

" it does not cross below the 0 point, staying to one pole...."... FALSE
The Top left is PULSAR straight
Bottom Left is CURVE. Top RIGHT is INVERTED.

InvertedvsUNIPolar.png

Lempface wrote:
28 Aug 2019
Are you wanting a rectified LFO? Synchronous is unipolar as far as I'm concerned because it does not cross below the 0 point, staying to one pole....
Image

Not sure what you're on about... this is how mine looks....
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selig
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Post 28 Aug 2019

Not sure what the discussion is about now, but I checked out Logue's suggestion CVA-7 and it's hands down the simplest way to convert either direction. Other solutions involve precise knob settings (Janitor CV) or are overkill for such a simple task (Thor) IMO. CVA-7 is a simple and clear switch setting, and of course it's FREE!
:)
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O1B
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Post 28 Aug 2019

Hey Selig,

I was after the precise "Converting of UNI to BIPOLAR CV" as in the OP.

I don't have CVA-7 but, from all the other suggestions:

First, we need a true unipolar CV source. Little IO wins. As in...:
Image

Where is your UNIPOLAR CV source coming from?
Are you sure it isn't just offset? If that's the case, a high enough CV will get it into the negative (-1) range again..
Image
as in my image to the OP. I don't think he follows Converting vs Offsetting.

Going from UNI (ZERO to X) to BI (CYCLE of X about ZERO) POLAR seemed to be the OP.
It seems the OP is okay with/interested in OFFSETTING as a solution RATHER than CONVERTing.

They yield different results is all.
Have a Good One.

(OP's image didn't come up in the last Post)
selig wrote:
28 Aug 2019
Not sure what the discussion is about now, but I checked out Logue's suggestion CVA-7 and it's hands down the simplest way to convert either direction. Other solutions involve precise knob settings (Janitor CV) or are overkill for such a simple task (Thor) IMO. CVA-7 is a simple and clear switch setting, and of course it's FREE!
:)
Last edited by O1B on 28 Aug 2019, edited 2 times in total.

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O1B
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Post 28 Aug 2019

You're IMAGE never came up.

Selig is here. Perhaps he can help you.
Good day..
Lempface wrote:
28 Aug 2019

Image

Not sure what you're on about... this is how mine looks....

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Lempface
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Post 28 Aug 2019

Image

Trying again on the picture.

Also I do understand converting, not sure why you're being aggressive with your responses. We can have a friendly dialog.

When I converted with CV Janitor my sine wave as seen in the image (before conversion) had a maximum of +5v and a minimum of -5v it didn't not go from +2.5v to -2.5v as a simple offset would have produced.

Edit: to clarify, I no longer need assistance, I had this resolved before the first response, I've just been carrying on a dialog with you because you seem to have different behavior out of synchronous.
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Lempface
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Post 29 Aug 2019

O1B wrote:
28 Aug 2019
You're IMAGE never came up.

Selig is here. Perhaps he can help you.
Good day..
Lempface wrote:
28 Aug 2019

Image

Not sure what you're on about... this is how mine looks....
Can you see the 2nd image I posted? Interested in your thoughts. My Synchronous does not offset directly from the CV out.
Last edited by Lempface on 29 Aug 2019, edited 1 time in total.
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pongasoft
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Post 29 Aug 2019

selig wrote:
28 Aug 2019
Not sure what the discussion is about now, but I checked out Logue's suggestion CVA-7 and it's hands down the simplest way to convert either direction. Other solutions involve precise knob settings (Janitor CV) or are overkill for such a simple task (Thor) IMO. CVA-7 is a simple and clear switch setting, and of course it's FREE!
:)
Thanks :D

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O1B
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Post 30 Aug 2019

Offset Away! You've got what you need.
I was after 'Converting' - like in the OP. It seems you were after Offsetting. I can dig it.

If you look at Knowledge or Correction and "see" Aggression, there's nothing I can do with such Projections.

But, I do understand.
Good day, Lempface.
Lempface wrote:
28 Aug 2019
not sure why you're being aggressive with your responses. We can have a friendly dialog.

and... about this piece of Rudeness... 'Not sure what you're on about... this is how mine looks...."
Im sure you'll defend it as necessary. It's typical.

But, I doubt we'd talk in such a manner face to face. ...., maybe we'll find out someday.
Last edited by O1B on 30 Aug 2019, edited 1 time in total.

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selig
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Post 30 Aug 2019

O1B wrote:
30 Aug 2019
Offset Away! You've got what you need.
I was after 'Converting' - like in the OP. It seems you were after Offsetting. I can dig it.

If you look at Knowledge or Correction and "see" Aggression, there's nothing I can do with such Projections.

But, I do understand.
Good day, Lempface.
Lempface wrote:
28 Aug 2019
not sure why you're being aggressive with your responses. We can have a friendly dialog.

and... about this piece of Rudeness... 'Not sure what you're on about... this is how mine looks...."
Im sure you'll defend it as necessary. It's typical.

But, I doubt we'd talk in such a manner face to face. But, maybe we'll find out someday.
Offsetting is half the conversion from uni to bi, scaling (mult x2) is the other. Offsetting alone gives a bi polar signal at half the full -1 to +1 level. BUT, if the original unipolar CV was “hot” enough, you can offset to get a usable bi polar signal.

The main point with a bi-polar signal is how it modulates (modifies) the target parameter. Unipolar pushes the parameter one direction (up or down), and unipolar does both up and down. The question of how “FAR” the signal. Is modulated is all about scale, as even a “lopsided” uni polar signal (goes from -0.1 to + 0.9) is still a uni-polar signal - just one with DC offset (which may be desirable in some cases, depending on what you’re intending to do to the target parameter with your modulation source).

All techniques mentioned here do both offsetting (addition/subtraction and scaling (multiplication/division):
Bi = uni -0.5 x2
Or
Bi = uni x2 -1

BTW, your graphic shows bi to rectified, and we’re talking uni to bi - or is that graphic showing something else?
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O1B
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Post 30 Aug 2019

Offsetting is offsetting. That's a Transformation. Simple HS Maths. Converting is not.

And, my image is just an example.
Rectification is a bit more complicated, as I'm sure you are aware - and is loosely used here. I prefer Converting, as in OP.
- But, CANCELLING the negative side - or the opposite POLE is the objective... at least, my Objective.


Offsetting.. then scaling, then offsetting, then scaling some more... then scaling, then offsetting, then scaling some more....

Little IO is is an elegant solution for BI- to UNI switching (A/B RE)
"Offsetting.. then scaling, then offsetting, then scaling some more..." is not so Graceful. And, are you at Zero, really? :?

I'm Good now on Reason's limitations and capabilities where this is concerned.

Thank goodness for Eurorack.
selig wrote:
30 Aug 2019


Offsetting is half the conversion from uni to bi, scaling (mult x2) is the other. Offsetting alone gives a bi polar signal at half the full -1 to +1 level. BUT, if the original unipolar CV was “hot” enough, you can offset to get a usable bi polar signal.

BTW, your graphic shows bi to rectified, and we’re talking uni to bi - or is that graphic showing something else?

Sterioevo
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Post 30 Aug 2019

complex has a rectify function fwiw.

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Lempface
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Post 30 Aug 2019

O1B wrote:
30 Aug 2019
Offset Away! You've got what you need.
I was after 'Converting' - like in the OP. It seems you were after Offsetting. I can dig it.

If you look at Knowledge or Correction and "see" Aggression, there's nothing I can do with such Projections.

But, I do understand.
Good day, Lempface.
Lempface wrote:
28 Aug 2019
not sure why you're being aggressive with your responses. We can have a friendly dialog.

and... about this piece of Rudeness... 'Not sure what you're on about... this is how mine looks...."
Im sure you'll defend it as necessary. It's typical.

But, I doubt we'd talk in such a manner face to face. ...., maybe we'll find out someday.
Heh, pleasant human right here...

Thanks Selig for trying to explain!
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selig
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Post 30 Aug 2019

O1B wrote:
30 Aug 2019
Offsetting is offsetting. That's a Transformation. Simple HS Maths. Converting is not.
Converting from what to what? I wonder if you and I may be talking about different things here?

Just to be more clear to prevent any further confusion on my part…

"Bi-Polar" means "both positive and negative" values, and "Uni-Polar" means "either all positive, or all negative" values. Simple as that. A mod wheel is Uni-Polar, pitch bend is Bi-Polar.

Audio signals are Bi-Polar (you can convert them to Uni-Polar with offsetting, that's what DC offset does). Gates are Uni-Polar (as far as I've ever seen).

Converting from Uni to Bi (as the OP asks), is indeed simply offsetting the voltage, plus scaling if desired. There's no additional "converting" required because once the signal swings across the zero line, it's Bi-Polar by definition.

That's how I've always understood it, but I'm always willing to learn more and correct my comments if need be!
:)
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O1B
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Post 31 Aug 2019

Selig...

OP... "Converting Unipolar CV to Bipolar"

I like... Uni - to One Dimension. Bi - Two Dimensions.

Here's another Module I found. Simple. Now, I have choices:

The Malekko 8NU8R ( Don't take my word for it....)
Rectification can be used to create subtle distortion effects on audio, or to transform bipolar or unipolar modulation sources into new unipolar waveforms.
Here's the module if you're interested.
I checked again. Only Little IO emits a TRUE unipolar wave [NO SCALING REQUIRED]- along with a BIPOLAR wave.

... if we're talking about .....'scaling' to 'find' ZERO....,yo' comprende. I just don't like that approach - for myself. ...

Maybe if Props stated - or explained - that the "Transformation" of Bipolar waves was really an Offset by 2.5 cv,
there'd be less confusion. But, let's not pass off Offsetting as Converting. Thank God for Eurorack.

Also, all those years Props seems to fight against "scopes"... hmmm..... Thank God for Rack Extensions.


Image


selig wrote:
30 Aug 2019
O1B wrote:
30 Aug 2019
Offsetting is offsetting. That's a Transformation. Simple HS Maths. Converting is not.
Converting from what to what? I wonder if you and I may be talking about different things here?

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O1B
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Post 31 Aug 2019

OP wants (i thought ) uni to Bi. I stated I was after Bi to UNI.

The issue I ran into was ... where is the source of the UNI?
All the suggestions 'seem" to be offsetting, and scaling a bipolar wave.

Im after switching 0 to 1.... to - 1to 1 and maybe switch to 0 to -1, and back again - from the same source wave.

I think Im square now. But, I could use a lesson on why little IO doesn't require scaling while the other options do.

btw, Thanks again for Leveler. BEST in CLASS.
I know you have Skill.

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ShelLuser
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Post 31 Aug 2019

O1B wrote:
31 Aug 2019
OP wants (i thought ) uni to Bi. I stated I was after Bi to UNI.
If you're not after the same thing then why risk "hijacking" the thread like this in the first place? It doesn't help the OP, that's for sure, and only risks adding more confusion to the whole thing.

Of course that's just my 2 cents into this.
--- :reason:
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selig
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Post 31 Aug 2019

O1B wrote:
31 Aug 2019
OP wants (i thought ) uni to Bi. I stated I was after Bi to UNI.

The issue I ran into was ... where is the source of the UNI?
All the suggestions 'seem" to be offsetting, and scaling a bipolar wave.

Im after switching 0 to 1.... to - 1to 1 and maybe switch to 0 to -1, and back again - from the same source wave.

I think Im square now. But, I could use a lesson on why little IO doesn't require scaling while the other options do.

btw, Thanks again for Leveler. BEST in CLASS.
I know you have Skill.
I think I may have misunderstood your, apologies for that!

I already described going from 0-1 to -1 - +1, and going the other way too. It's done by offsetting and scaling, as I previously mentioned. I'm not sure where rectifying comes in, but that's simply changing the sign from negative to positive (and leaving positive alone).

I don't know Little I/O, but I would guess it's scaling internally as there's no way around it.

FWIW, my suggestion was offsetting and scaling a UNIPOLAR (not bipolar) wave. To go from bipolar to unipolar you divide (scale) and add (offset).

I don't know what could be involved in knowing the unipolar source, unless it didn't conform to "0-1" for some reason. With analog CV there are different voltage "standards" with regards to what specific voltage range is generated from the module for bipolar signals (typically -5 to +5v, but sometimes greater). Maybe that's what you're talking about? In Reason we speak either of -1 to +1 or 0-127 (-63 to +64 or similar). Maybe that's where my confusion came from ?
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O1B
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Post 10 Oct 2019

JUST JUST caught this. AHHH! internal scaling! Yes!! That may be it.

But, to scale... is tedious for me. How do you zoom to 'exactly' zero? with scaling.. it's only .. kinda close... unless you use ReVOLT or a CV 'reader' - but that SEVERELY slows down 'dynamic reactions.'

I appreciate that explanation of Little IO. I was baffled. I hope more CV tools utilize that programming.
Good Show, Little LFO... (I thought it was IO)!
Image
selig wrote:
31 Aug 2019

I don't know Little I/O, but I would guess it's scaling internally as there's no way around it.

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O1B
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Post 10 Oct 2019

Bi to UNI and UNI to Bi is " "hijacking" the thread"... .....if you still feel this way... please, explain....
Image
ShelLuser wrote:
31 Aug 2019
O1B wrote:
31 Aug 2019
OP wants (i thought ) uni to Bi. I stated I was after Bi to UNI.
If you're not after the same thing then why risk "hijacking" the thread like this in the first place? It doesn't help the OP, that's for sure, and only risks adding more confusion to the whole thing.

Of course that's just my 2 cents into this.

Spaceship
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Post 10 Oct 2019

Reaktor does all this

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