Announcing Reason 11

[Goriila Texas]

It’s mostly C hidden behind A that I’ve seen since the old PH forum. When you shoot down a long azz workaround they are quick to tell you to use something else.

I’m sure it’s going to seem like I’m oversimplifying the issue, but maybe this will be useful. Here's what I see happening:

User 1 posts a request in the Feature Suggestion forum because he wants his call for improvement to be heard by the devs clearly and urgently, and he also wants other like-minded users to chime in with their “signatures” to build the pressure of the petition, hoping that if the stink gets big enough to reach Sweden the devs will do something about it.

A few minutes later User 2 comes along and replies to User 1’s request by offering a workaround. Why does he do this?

1. Because he genuinely wants to help User 1 navigate the problem that he’s encountered. He sympathizes with User 1 and remembers when he himself struggled to make sense of Reason, so he’s simply motivated out of a kind heart to give back.
2. Because he wants to show off his own expertise in Reason and draw praise from other users in the community for offering such an ingenious workaround. He sees an opportunity to boost his stock among his peers, and doesn’t mind helping someone else to do it.
3. Because he secretly strongly disagrees with User 1’s request and doesn’t want that particular feature to be added to Reason, or at least not before his own prized-request gets added first. However, instead of simply voicing his disagreement directly, he offers a workaround as a thinly-guised pacifier to placate User 1, hoping to have a chilling effect on the petition.

I think most of us would agree there's nothing wrong with motivation a, or even b. But the sinister c seems to be more pernicious and disingenuous. Workaround-replies are unwelcome to some of us because we can’t ever know User 2's motivations. It can be especially frustrating because the workarounds seem to take the pressure and urgency off the original petition, letting the devs off the hook and putting the onus back on us to fix or put up with the issues that we perceive in Reason.

A similar phenomenon can be seen in online gaming communities:
User 1 says, “The Bluurg pistol is WAY overpowered! Nerf it!”
User 2, who always uses that gun, replies, “You just have to learn how to dodge it."
User 3 adds the eternal gem, "git gud n00b.”

[guitfnky]

I’m sure it’s going to seem like I’m oversimplifying the issue, but maybe this will be useful. Here's what I see happening:

User 1 posts a request in the Feature Suggestion forum because he wants his call for improvement to be heard by the devs clearly and urgently, and he also wants other like-minded users to chime in with their “signatures” to build the pressure of the petition, hoping that if the stink gets big enough to reach Sweden the devs will do something about it.

A few minutes later User 2 comes along and replies to User 1’s request by offering a workaround. Why does he do this?

1. Because he genuinely wants to help User 1 navigate the problem that he’s encountered. He sympathizes with User 1 and remembers when he himself struggled to make sense of Reason, so he’s simply motivated out of a kind heart to give back.
2. Because he wants to show off his own expertise in Reason and draw praise from other users in the community for offering such an ingenious workaround. He sees an opportunity to boost his stock among his peers, and doesn’t mind helping someone else to do it.
3. Because he secretly strongly disagrees with User 1’s request and doesn’t want that particular feature to be added to Reason, or at least not before his own prized-request gets added first. However, instead of simply voicing his disagreement directly, he offers a workaround as a thinly-guised pacifier to placate User 1, hoping to have a chilling effect on the petition.

I think most of us would agree there's nothing wrong with motivation a, or even b. But the sinister c seems to be more pernicious and disingenuous. Workaround-replies are unwelcome to some of us because we can’t ever know User 2's motivations. It can be especially frustrating because the workarounds seem to take the pressure and urgency off the original petition, letting the devs off the hook and putting the onus back on us to fix or put up with the issues that we perceive in Reason.

A similar phenomenon can be seen in online gaming communities:
User 1 says, “The Bluurg pistol is WAY overpowered! Nerf it!”
User 2, who always uses that gun, replies, “You just have to learn how to dodge it."
User 3 adds the eternal gem, "git gud n00b.”

I think you’ve nailed it. intentions aside, suggesting an un-requested workaround can come off as being dismissive. and when someone takes it a step further and suggests the feature request is superfluous, that’s even more dismissive—at that point, you have to start to wonder if the person falls into the “c” camp in your scenarios.

[mashers]

You keep saying we’re not understanding your intentions correctly so what you to do is be more clear because all we can go on is what you write. That’s a you problem that only you can fix. Please be more clear when commenting. We all know you’re just using that as an excuse because you have no argument period.

Ok, so if I apparently "conveniently" or "deliberately" misunderstand something or don't correctly identify whether or not somebody is receptive to hearing a workaround then that's my fault for not interpreting them correctly, but if you don't understand my intentions then that's also my fault for not being clear enough. Good to know!

[musicman691]

From reading discussions over at both GS and the Avid forums about the new announcement. It seems many Pro Tools users are still using Reason as a rewire slave. So not having an AAX version of the Reason Rack seems like a missed opportunity to make serious money. Pro Tools has a large market share over in the US.

We use Reason as a slave because that's all we have right now. Unfortunately. And from the radio silence from Reason Studios on possible aax development we're still going to be stuck with a workaround of hosting R11 Rack in Blue Cat Patchwork.

I wish Mattias would come on here and tell at least whether aax is on a path to development or if it's even being considered.

[chaosroyale]

Whenever a version or feature update doesn't quite hit the mark, there is always a lot of excuse-making and deflection, dressed up as fortune cookie wisdom.

"It's not the features, it's how the music sounds!" no shit, Einstein. Why even type something so obvious.
"You can make good music with Reason V.2!" Yes, of course you can make music on a 4-track and an Atari ST, but there's a good fucking reason that most professionals use the latest versions of tools such as Logic and Live these days.

I love using lots of different tools to make music, starting with actual, y'know, instruments.

I love Reason, too. But I wish it was better. It could be so much better and still be Reason.

[DougalDarkly]

Deleted

[musicman691]

First - heads up, I'm going to disagree with you - please note that this doesn't mean I think you're an idiot in any way, I just see things differently.

Hopefully my post will be taken in the spirit of 'discussion' that it's meant to be and not as an insult to your intelligence!

there's a good fucking reason that most professionals use the latest versions of tools such as Logic and Live these days.

I make Techno/Electro and in my 'world' the push is increasingly to go 'DAWless' altogether and get back to hardware.

Every time I watch one of those 'look round the studio of 'x' famous artist' I see a shit-load of 'old' stuff!

Again, I'd like to emphasise that I just thought you made a good point for discussion and I was putting forward my view to add to that discussion. If you disagree, please let me know! If, of course, you think my stupid point is worth any further discussion anyway...

Agreed. Take a look at Junky XL's studio - hardware as far as the eye can see. Huuuge Moog Modular, a whole lot of Eurorack modules and setups, at least a dozen or so old school drum machines. Yeah he records on Cubase but still uses all that hardware as well.

[DougalDarkly]

Deleted

[diminished]

[guitfnky]

“AND ALSO YOU CAN DO THAT IN THOR”

made my day!

[boingy]

I wish Mattias would come on here and tell at least whether aax is on a path to development or if it's even being considered.

From the FAQ:

---
Is Reason Rack Plugin available as an AAX plugin?
No, Reason Rack Plugin is not yet available as an AAX plugin as of now. We are looking at the AAX format but no decisions have been made yet.
---

So it's being considered but it's hard to say how much! I have no use for AAX but I think they absolutely must support it if they want to be taken seriously.

[Raveshaper]

I’m sure it’s going to seem like I’m oversimplifying the issue, but maybe this will be useful. Here's what I see happening:

User 1 posts a request in the Feature Suggestion forum because he wants his call for improvement to be heard by the devs clearly and urgently, and he also wants other like-minded users to chime in with their “signatures” to build the pressure of the petition, hoping that if the stink gets big enough to reach Sweden the devs will do something about it.

A few minutes later User 2 comes along and replies to User 1’s request by offering a workaround. Why does he do this?

1. Because he genuinely wants to help User 1 navigate the problem that he’s encountered. He sympathizes with User 1 and remembers when he himself struggled to make sense of Reason, so he’s simply motivated out of a kind heart to give back.
2. Because he wants to show off his own expertise in Reason and draw praise from other users in the community for offering such an ingenious workaround. He sees an opportunity to boost his stock among his peers, and doesn’t mind helping someone else to do it.
3. Because he secretly strongly disagrees with User 1’s request and doesn’t want that particular feature to be added to Reason, or at least not before his own prized-request gets added first. However, instead of simply voicing his disagreement directly, he offers a workaround as a thinly-guised pacifier to placate User 1, hoping to have a chilling effect on the petition.

I think most of us would agree there's nothing wrong with motivation a, or even b. But the sinister c seems to be more pernicious and disingenuous. Workaround-replies are unwelcome to some of us because we can’t ever know User 2's motivations. It can be especially frustrating because the workarounds seem to take the pressure and urgency off the original petition, letting the devs off the hook and putting the onus back on us to fix or put up with the issues that we perceive in Reason.

A similar phenomenon can be seen in online gaming communities:
User 1 says, “The Bluurg pistol is WAY overpowered! Nerf it!”
User 2, who always uses that gun, replies, “You just have to learn how to dodge it."
User 3 adds the eternal gem, "git gud n00b.”

You forgot an option.

d: a blind and deaf hegemony of User 2's ego that gleefully stomps around rejoicing with intoxication over hearing its own bellowing voice, echoing endlessly within a shrinking enclave of increasingly esoteric and fruitless knowledge. User 1 risks this empire of self appointed knighthood and the threat of identity crisis reverberates in the recesses of the regent's mind.

[chaosroyale]

Hey no problem, I don't think we are "arguing" are we?

The problem isn't old vs. new or hardware vs. software. It's about a tool being the best it can be. Even in the case of analog synths, modern ones have all kinds of "convenience" upgrades from their 70's forerunners.

Likewise, the comment right below yours talks about using a studio full of Modular synths and then says "he still records on Cubase" which kind of makes my point. Why doesn't he use a 4-track cassette, hell, why not a wax cylinder?

Every tool has its own vision and a purpose, and the best tools fulfill that vision. Reason's vision is not exactly the same as a hardware synth. It has some of those elements certainly, but with the conveniences of a modern DAW.

For example, that's why I don't buy excuses like "the original hardware SSL doesn't have wet/dry knobs" - sure, but the original hardware also has saturation which Reason doesn't, so it's obviously not a "purist" decision. If they said "we didn't want to do it that way", fair enough. In my opinion, an option for realistic saturation OR the clean Reason sound, plus wet/dry would be a more useful, time-saving, and attractive/competitive feature than either a slavishly perfect recreation or the half-assed thing we have now.

quote edited for simplicity:

First - heads up, I'm going to disagree with you - please note that this doesn't mean I think you're an idiot in any way, I just see things differently.

Hopefully my post will be taken in the spirit of 'discussion' that it's meant to be and not as an insult to your intelligence!

I make Techno/Electro and in my 'world' the push is increasingly to go 'DAWless' altogether and get back to hardware.

[QVprod]

Who is asking for Reason to be the same as bitwig? It seems like the opposite to me. They LIKE the Reason rack, the hardware look, etc, but they don't understand why the updates are so slow and underwhelming.

To try to cool this down a bit... The arguments are kind of going around each other. I'll admit my bias, but here goes;

1. I think there's a huge disparity on this forum about what "investing" means. I personally don't believe that buying software counts as an investment into that software or company as far as dictionary definitions go. However many here do, and that belief of that a purchase = an investment does seem to cause a bit of frustration for those who believe it.

2. What kind of features are being asked for. Asking for something like auto-punch for example is one thing. While there is a workaround in the meantime, I don't believe anyone is saying we don't need it. However, if a person is quite literally asking for a Session view, it does beg the (imo logical) question of why that person doesn't want to use Ableton or Bitwig which are clearly built around that sort of workflow, whereas Reason is not. For the record though, I do think being able to launch Blocks would be cool if there were a smooth way of implementing it.

Essentially there are the "common sense upgrades" mentioned for improvements such as Reason Studios finally adding proper crossfading in this version, and then there are the I want Reason to have the workflow of 'X' DAW requests. I think this is where the break down in communication is really happening. The responses people have to both of those requests are very different. And both sides responses to each other are a bit over generalized.

3. There are the people who feel the sequencer needs some improvements and then there are the folks who seem to feel it's completely inadequate compared to "X" DAW to the point that their professional careers are being held back. To which yes, the response is why aren't you using something that suits your needs then? The Reason rack plugin seems the perfect solution for these kinds of users yet they're against the idea of it.

*Puts mod hat on;

Now disagreement is fine, but some (not all) of these posts are border lining personal attacks. Lets keep it civil, thanks!

*takes mod hat back off.

[guitfnky]

*Puts mod hat on;
...
*takes mod hat back off.

you have mod hats? do they have the old Props logo, or the new Reason Studios one?

[boingy]

*Puts mod hat on;
...
*takes mod hat back off.

you have mod hats? do they have the old Props logo, or the new Reason Studios one?

And do they have CV inputs?

[guitfnky]

you have mod hats? do they have the old Props logo, or the new Reason Studios one?

And do they have CV inputs?

only on the back.

[chaosroyale]

Not sure why you chose my comment to reply to, but I agree with you 100% on both these points.

Buy a tool if it works for you. You're a customer not a shareholder, no developer "owes" you any future development. It's just a brute fact that those who don't stay competitive will fall by the wayside. I hope that doesn't happen to Reason.

And anyone who wishes Reason had the core concept of Ableton (live loops, session view), should already be using Ableton, Reason is obviously the wrong tool for that job.

1. I think there's a huge disparity on this forum about what "investing" means.

2. What kind of features are being asked for. Asking for something like auto-punch for example is one thing. While there is a workaround in the meantime, I don't believe anyone is saying we don't need it. However, if a person is quite literally asking for a Session view, it does beg the (imo logical) question of why that person doesn't want to use Ableton or Bitwig

[QVprod]

*Puts mod hat on;
...
*takes mod hat back off.

you have mod hats? do they have the old Props logo, or the new Reason Studios one?

Yes, they have the Reasontalk logo on them!

Point is this, I’m a user first. A mod when I have to be. Hence the noted separation between my general comment and my mod comment that was aimed at everyone regardless of stance.

[QVprod]

Not sure why you chose my comment to reply to, but I agree with you 100% on both these points.

Buy a tool if it works for you. You're a customer not a shareholder, no developer "owes" you any future development. It's just a brute fact that those who don't stay competitive will fall by the wayside. I hope that doesn't happen to Reason.

And anyone who wishes Reason had the core concept of Ableton (live loops, session view), should already be using Ableton, Reason is obviously the wrong tool for that job.

1. I think there's a huge disparity on this forum about what "investing" means.

2. What kind of features are being asked for. Asking for something like auto-punch for example is one thing. While there is a workaround in the meantime, I don't believe anyone is saying we don't need it. However, if a person is quite literally asking for a Session view, it does beg the (imo logical) question of why that person doesn't want to use Ableton or Bitwig

Was more so the “who’s asking for Reason to be Bitwig” statement I was referencing. Hence my session view example. Post was simply noting the viewpoints.

[guitfnky]

you have mod hats? do they have the old Props logo, or the new Reason Studios one?

Yes, they have the Reasontalk logo on them!

Point is this, I’m a user first. A mod when I have to be. Hence the noted separation between my general comment and my mod comment that was aimed at everyone regardless of stance.

understood. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit. I know I’m not guiltless in thickening it in the first place.

[QVprod]

Yes, they have the Reasontalk logo on them!

Point is this, I’m a user first. A mod when I have to be. Hence the noted separation between my general comment and my mod comment that was aimed at everyone regardless of stance.

understood. I was just trying to lighten the mood a bit. I know I’m not guiltless in thickening it in the first place.

Oh text conversation and the difficulty of recognizing humor with it.

[Timmy Crowne]

You forgot an option.

d: a blind and deaf hegemony of User 2's ego that gleefully stomps around rejoicing with intoxication over hearing its own bellowing voice, echoing endlessly within a shrinking enclave of increasingly esoteric and fruitless knowledge. User 1 risks this empire of self appointed knighthood and the threat of identity crisis reverberates in the recesses of the regent's mind.

You're right, I stopped short of that one. That would be a much deeper and darker motivation: the desire to intentionally keep parts of Reason arcane and unintuitive, purely to secure one's own place of authority on the subject. In that case, I would analogize User 2 not to a regent, but to a self-appointed high priest: 'Don't ask for progress; only through our teachings can you grow.'

To someone with that perspective, User 1's little feature-request would amount to heresy, and thus would warrant a visceral reaction. I might be naive, but I sincerely hope that's not true of most of us here.

EDIT: 2 more replies and we're at 1000!

[littlejam]

hello,

i like reaper, been watching a lot of videos
and reaper has mpe support
that would be the feature i'd like to see added
(i've read other posts that takes a lot of retooling)

but to use linnstrument with RE...the bomb

and the bonzai video in the kitchen section is very peaceful

cheers,

j

[littlejam]

heyhey,

oooops,

just wanted to say thanks to everyone

cheers,

j