A Free run LFO should always have a "key start" + a LFO Position

[Heigen5]

All of the free run LFO's should have a "key-start" + a "LFO Position" because otherwise it's always a gamble that how do the free runs sound when rendering to audio.

[antic604]

All of the free run LFO's should have a "key-start" + a "LFO Position" because otherwise it's always a gamble that how do the free runs sound when rendering to audio.

Erm... That's why it's called free-running LFO. Unpredictability is exactly why they're for

There are other LFOs synced to transport (e.g. Synchronous) or getting retriggered by a note or a button.

[Heigen5]

All of the free run LFO's should have a "key-start" + a "LFO Position" because otherwise it's always a gamble that how do the free runs sound when rendering to audio.

Erm... That's why it's called free-running LFO. Unpredictability is exactly why they're for

There are other LFOs synced to transport (e.g. Synchronous) or getting retriggered by a note or a button.

I'd still want this though. And I don't think that 'Unpredictability' is the thing about Free Run, it's rather there because one can then modulate in any speed.

[antic604]

I don't think that 'Unpredictability' is the thing about Free Run, it's rather there because one can then modulate in any speed.

Yes, it is. Free running means that it's running all the time so if you play something you never know what phase the LFO is in. Ability to modulate the speed is completely unrelated to that.

[Heigen5]

I don't think that 'Unpredictability' is the thing about Free Run, it's rather there because one can then modulate in any speed.

Yes, it is. Free running means that it's running all the time so if you play something you never know what phase the LFO is in. Ability to modulate the speed is completely unrelated to that.

Can you link to a wiki that says that?
By the way, a toilet was originally suppose to be used that you sit in another way around too.

[antic604]

Can you link to a wiki that says that?
By the way, a toilet was originally suppose to be used that you sit in another way around too.

I'd probably have to make one myself

It's just a term used to describe an LFO that's always running and has been used like that forever. It's like you'd request for a random generator to spew more numbers around the mean or above 0.5 than below- doesn't make sense. It's either random or it isn't.

Use triggered LFO for what you need instead of trying to change the agreed vocabulary.

You obviously haven't described what you want to achieve (typical when someone complains on the Internet...) but perhaps this would be ideal for you: you can draw whatever shape you want, either sync to tempo or define cycle in Hz and - most importantly - there's an automatable trigger button that controls when and how it cycles (you can also trigger it with MIDI, if you create a sequencer track for it, if you prefer that):

https://www.propellerheads.com/shop/rac ... fo-editor/

[Heigen5]

Can you link to a wiki that says that?
By the way, a toilet was originally suppose to be used that you sit in another way around too.

I'd probably have to make one myself

It's just a term used to describe an LFO that's always running and has been used like that forever. It's like you'd request for a random generator to spew more numbers around the mean or above 0.5 than below- doesn't make sense. It's either random or it isn't.

Use triggered LFO for what you need instead of trying to change the agreed vocabulary.

You obviously haven't described what you want to achieve (typical when someone complains on the Internet...) but perhaps this would be ideal for you: you can draw whatever shape you want, either sync to tempo or define cycle in Hz and - most importantly - there's an automatable trigger button that controls when and how it cycles (you can also trigger it with MIDI, if you create a sequencer track for it, if you prefer that):

https://www.propellerheads.com/shop/rac ... fo-editor/

But did you find that Free Run LFO real purpose article yet, by doing google search. And I actually did tell why this would be handy - why would anyone want to rely on the luck when using free run?

[adfielding]

I totally agree with what you're getting at - it'd be really cool to be able to use free running LFOs that are somehow tied to the sequencer (without being tempo-synced, obviously!) so that you'd get the same results per-bounce. Yeah, you'd lose some of that unpredictability but I think it'd be more useful from a purely practical standpoint.

I've had similar criticisms toward certain Players that yield varying results on each play-through - the spontaneity and unpredictability can be cool, but being able to specify a seed value for the randomisation of certain elements is generally more useful in terms of actual usability.

[Heigen5]

I totally agree with what you're getting at - it'd be really cool to be able to use free running LFOs that are somehow tied to the sequencer (without being tempo-synced, obviously!) so that you'd get the same results per-bounce. Yeah, you'd lose some of that unpredictability but I think it'd be more useful from a purely practical standpoint.

I've had similar criticisms toward certain Players that yield varying results on each play-through - the spontaneity and unpredictability can be cool, but being able to specify a seed value for the randomisation of certain elements is generally more useful in terms of actual usability.

Cool one Ad! I have had some bounced audio situations whereas the free run result was not as good as sometimes. This is exactly why I'd want all the LFOs to get this.

[antic604]

And I actually did tell why this would be handy - why would anyone want to rely on the luck when using free run?

Lots of people do generative music that does sound (slightly) different every time. And also most hardware analogue gear was based on free running oscillators and LFOs, that's why they sounded alive and not sterile.

I totally agree with what you're getting at - it'd be really cool to be able to use free running LFOs that are somehow tied to the sequencer (without being tempo-synced, obviously!) so that you'd get the same results per-bounce.

I believe there's no strict relation between LFO being free running and it being tempo synced. Just look at Shape LFO I linked above, or the LFOs available in Bitwig. Free running just means it doesn't reset every time MIDI gate appears or transport starts (this is what "synced to transport" means). Tempo synced is not the same as transport synced.

---

And again (to both of you) - I'm not disputing that this is useful! Obviously it is! But there are already devices that do this! No need to redefine the well established term to mean something new, because you're hell-bent on using something against its purpose.

[adfielding]

I believe there's no strict relation between LFO being free running and it being tempo synced. Just look at Shape LFO I linked above, or the LFOs available in Bitwig. Free running just means it doesn't reset every time MIDI gate appears or transport starts (this is what "synced to transport" means). Tempo synced is not the same as transport synced.

I know, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't talking about tempo-sync'd LFOs when I brought up the subject of a sequencer-bound LFO

And again (to both of you) - I'm not disputing that this is useful! Obviously it is! But there are already devices that do this! No need to redefine the well established term to mean something new, because you're hell-bent on using something against its purpose.

No worries, I totally see your point I understand that this kind of functionality is entirely dependent on the instrument/device(s) in question, it'd just be nice to have the option for a little more consistency when rendering stuff to audio. But, as you rightly pointed out, if you want that consistency then there are other options available.

[Heigen5]

Non of the softwares should not being developed to leave out something, because 50 years ago they also didn't have something. Let the new tools win the old time ones IMO.

[antic604]

Non of the softwares should not being developed to leave out something, because 50 years ago they also didn't have something. Let the new tools win the old time ones IMO.

Dafinitely, but you asked what it's good for, so I gave you an answer - some still want that unpredictability, even if it's not an emulation of vintage hardware gear.

It's really simple and if you know what you want to achieve you can find a tool that does that. Sure, it would be great if plugins had all possible options because we're now in software realm and all if possible and "free", but then we'd probably have one synth, one multi-effect and one DAW

So, just to sum this up:
"Key/MIDI synced" - starts from beginning with each note
"Sequencer synced" - starts with beginning of sequencer timeline and is always in the same phase in given point of time
"Tempo synced" - it cycles in line with project's tempo, e.g. 1 bar, quarte note, etc.
"Free running" - it cycles all the time, also when DAW isn't playing, making it random in practice.

[esselfortium]

I agree with this. I usually avoid non-tempo-synced LFOs in Reason because they're going to sound completely different every time I bounce the song, making them useless for anything that isn't a very subtle effect.

[antic604]

I agree with this. I usually avoid non-tempo-synced LFOs in Reason because they're going to sound completely different every time I bounce the song, making them useless for anything that isn't a very subtle effect.

God, do you people even read? If you want something seemingly random but still repeatable there are tools for that, e.g. Shape LFO or even Synchronous (you can e.g. set it to 1/16 and make it 13 steps - which means it will be slightly different for every beat, but still the same every time for bouncing).

[esselfortium]

I agree with this. I usually avoid non-tempo-synced LFOs in Reason because they're going to sound completely different every time I bounce the song, making them useless for anything that isn't a very subtle effect.

God, do you people even read? If you want something seemingly random but still repeatable there are tools for that, e.g. Shape LFO or even Synchronous (you can e.g. set it to 1/16 and make it 13 steps - which means it will be slightly different for every beat, but still the same every time for bouncing).

I've been using Reason since 2003, I am aware there are other features besides the one that I would like to see improved. I use those options instead of free-running LFOs, as I stated in my post. Thanks for your kind reply.

[antic604]

I've been using Reason since 2003, I am aware there are other features besides the one that I would like to see improved. I use those options instead of free-running LFOs, as I stated in my post. Thanks for your kind reply.

So why are you agreeing with OP, who wants to turn free-running FLOs into (sequencer) synced LFOs? There's room for both.

[Heigen5]

I agree with this. I usually avoid non-tempo-synced LFOs in Reason because they're going to sound completely different every time I bounce the song, making them useless for anything that isn't a very subtle effect.

God, do you people even read? If you want something seemingly random but still repeatable there are tools for that, e.g. Shape LFO or even Synchronous (you can e.g. set it to 1/16 and make it 13 steps - which means it will be slightly different for every beat, but still the same every time for bouncing).

I hear you, you can get that RE to do that for you. But as a sound-designer, I can't demand my clients to buy a RE to be able to have that possibility.

[Philup]

Umm... am I missing something here?

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[diminished]

Umm... am I missing something here?

Yes

In short: we™ want to be able to reproduce randomized values

[selig]

http://waveformless.blogspot.com/2010/1 ... lator.html

Here's how I understand the options.
There are four basic modes for an LFO with regards to timing, with variations depending on whether the sequencer is running or not:

1) Free Run (keeps running - some poly synths switch voices when playing repeated notes, so their poly LFOs won't sound the same as a true global/monophonic LFO. Compare Thor's LFO1 to LFO2 for a good example of this.)
2) Key Triggered Run
3) Tempo Synced
4) Key Triggered Tempo Sync (aligned to key trig, not to bar line)

(Tempo "quantized" is a better term instead of tempo sync, because you can have tempo quantized rates that are key synced and not tempo synced)

Each of the basic Reason synths offers at least some of these modes (Thor and NNXT offer them all).

Subtractor LFO1: 1/3
Malstrom: 2/3 (2/4 with seq stopped)
Thor LFO1: 1/2/3/4 (1/2/3 when stopped - LFO1 is less predictable than LFO2 because it is poly/voice based) LFO 2: 1/2/3/4
NNXT LFO1: 1/2/3/4
Europa: 1/2/3/4 (1/2/3 when stopped - LFO1 is less predictable when stopped because it is poly/voice based)

I think that's about it. When an LFO has both a Tempo Sync and Key Trig option, you should be able to access all four basic modes.

[JiggeryPokery]

I agree with this. I usually avoid non-tempo-synced LFOs in Reason because they're going to sound completely different every time I bounce the song, making them useless for anything that isn't a very subtle effect.

God, do you people even read? If you want something seemingly random but still repeatable there are tools for that, e.g. Shape LFO or even Synchronous (you can e.g. set it to 1/16 and make it 13 steps - which means it will be slightly different for every beat, but still the same every time for bouncing).

What happens when you need to change the song tempo? Yes, now your tempo-synced LFO rate is different, as 1/16 at 120BPM is not equivalent to the 1/16 at 102 BPM. Free running LFO is not about "randomness". I think you've got a bit hung up on the word "random" tbh. The phase position can be different when the LFO is free-running, but that's a different thing. In any event, if a bounce-down results in a starting phase that's a little off.... one can always rebounce

Hz rate LFOs are not "random" unless you're using a random LFO. And if you're using a random LFO, then retriggering doesn't matter, does it?

So I think you're confusing the term "free-running" with "random" and then not understanding why you might need it "key-triggered".

As esselfortium is implying (if I'm reading her response correctly) above 5Hz—the kinds of rates that vibrato and tremolo start at—there's little value in key-triggering in most situations, and indeed little value in polyphonic LFO voices (though poly tremolo can be interesting), but below that, and certainly for super-slow rates, it's very useful if you need that saw-shape LFO to start on the fall every time (the 90° phase position), in which case you need to adjust the phase position and allow for a key-triggered to ensure it restarts it at that point every time you need to call it.

As well as the suggestions above, obviously I should point out:

Ammo 100LA also comes with the Free button that can be disabled to key trigger Hz rate LFOs in conjunction if necessary with the Phase adjust.

Ammo 400/1200 has phase adjust and full internal envelope for cycle retriggering.

Any competent dedicated LFO device will offer key retriggering of Hz, as would any competent flanger or phaser. I'd argue it's not needed in a chorus, but I did include key retrigger for LFO2 in Steerpike 3, although there's no phase adjust.

[antic604]

Hz rate LFOs are not "random" unless you're using a random LFO. And if you're using a random LFO, then retriggering doesn't matter, does it?

So I think you're confusing the term "free-running" with "random" and then not understanding why you might need it "key-triggered".

I'm not misunderstanding anything

Say I have a sine wave free-running LFO at 0.2Hz, that's controling a filter of my lead. If I press play in my project, then at - say - bar 64 every time the filter will be at a different level, because the LFO is running all the time and isn't synced to transport nor key/MIDI synced. And I actually WANT that. For other purposes I might need a LFO that's synced to transport (starts from the same position at the beginning of the song, so it's always at the same level at given song position, unless I change the tempo) or synced to key/MIDI (starts from the same position when key/MIDI is triggered), but sometimes I REALLY want to have "random" LFO not in terms of it producing random values, but it being at "random" level of the sinus cycle at the same spot in the arrangement every time I play!

That's what I WANT, so please don't tell me I might not understand why I need key triggered LFO

The whole discussion here starte because the OP wanted to redefine what "free running" means. It's like he had socks, but wanted shoes, so he'd start demanding that socks should now have hard soles and laces to tie them up

[antic604]

Just have a look at basic LFO in Bitwig:

1st menu gives you options for the speed of the LFO - whether it's measured in Hz, kHz, bars, halfs of bars, quarters, 1/8ths, 1/16ths, etc:



2nd menu dictates how the LFO is triggered:
- "Free" means it's running all the time independent of playback, so it's in a "random" position of the sine wave at the same spot in the song
- "Note" means it's retriggered from the same position / phase every time a note is generated
- "Sync" means it starts from the same position / phase at the start of the song, so if you add few bars in the middle and tempo is not quantised to e.g. bars, 1/8ths or 16ths, then at the latter part of the song it will be on different level than it was earlier; same with tempo change
- "Rand" means - in this case - that it's reset by MIDI notes, but at random phase of the cycle