Synth expert help needed - distinguish which synth to use?

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samsome
Posts: 364
Joined: 18 Dec 2015

28 Jul 2019

Hi i've been messing with virtual synths some time now but i still have no idea why i would choose one synth over another

Just so i get an idea

can you please tell me why you would use Thor Over Subtractor Or Malmstrom

and any further information to make me get a better idea when to use each

Wouldn't thor be able to produce all sounds anyway?

i need help :X

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Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11170
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

28 Jul 2019

To focus on just the 3 you mentioned, here would be my(!) choices:

Subtractor:
Mostly for basses, with a touch of analog and FM. Sounds that are not too complicated. Mono preferred.

Thor:
Can do everything, Good for experimenting. Probably would use it for pads, leads and synths.

Malsträm:
If i want some unusal sounds, not the typical sine/saw/square stuff. More of granularized sounds, fx, drones and pads, probably some plucks.


After trying and playing around with so many different synths over the last years, my conclusions is, that I(!) got easier specific results i am looking for with sepcific synths and some things are nearly impossible with some synths (beside the different synthesis engines...). Just compare a Noise Engineering RE with Resonance RE - they probably have some things in common, but they generate completely different sounds. And so i would choose Noise Engineering for weird metallic like sounds, mostly for plucks and i would chose Resonance for more relastic plucked sounds and strings. If i want a long drone, i would chose Nostromo. If i want clear sounds, i chose Parsec. If i want a sample based drone, i chose Grain or Europa and so on and on...
Reason12, Win10

Mich01
Posts: 130
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

28 Jul 2019

First of all, the synths you mention all have strength in their own right.

Subtractor is combines a powerfull synth, with a pretty simple architecture and UI. Because it is the oldest synth in the rack, absolutely doesn't mean that it is out dated imho. Subtractor sometimes use to make patches very quickly (Basses, strings, brass etc). But unlike the straightforward interface it you can get a wide variety of sounds out of it. (I like the phaseshift, osc-sync, RM and FM most).
So if you want to learn the basics of synthesis quickly I suggest you start with this one!

Malstrom has a clear UI too and give you the possibility to experiment with waveshaping and wavetabling. Though it is not as sophisticated as Europa and Grain, you can make really interesting sounds with it. Evolving pads and Karplus-Strong like sounds (try using Comb-filters) are pretty easy on this one!

I personally often work with Thor, because this synth is very versatile. Both, the possibilities to choose the type of synthesis you want (classis analogs like Moog-like, Oberheim-like sounds, Yamaha DX-like etc), and the comprehesive routing and modulation capacities (audio modulation like osc-FM and filter-FM), you can do it with Thor;
This near endless possibilities and combinations though, might be a bit hard to handle at first. But there are some very good tutorials out there.
At the moment P heads provide Thor: a complete walkthrough by Zombie Fights Sharks on the website.
From earlier times you can read the articles by Gordon Reid (Thor demystified) also on Props website.
And there are some really 'in depth' tutorials by Jeremy Janzen: Reason Wizardry.

Enjoy experimenting with all three outstanding synthesizers in the rack!! And don't forget to combine them for even more fun :D

Greetz Michel

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

28 Jul 2019

Here's my take on the subject. First, there are specific differences (features) between those synths, such as Subtractor's oscillator modes or Malstrom's oscillator waveforms, neither of which are possible in Thor.

But there is also another possible misconceptions - that all modules with the same name are going to sound the same.

What I mean is that you can't assume that if two synths both have two oscillators, two ADSR envelopes, and a filter, they must therefore must sound the same, For example, the envelopes may not have the same curve shape (Subtractor's are different from Thors and Malstrom for example), may not have the same ranges.lengths, and may not have the same trigger modes (legato, re-trigger, play to end, loop), or the ability to tempo sync, etc.

Same as for other instruments (all guitars don't necessarily sound the same), all synths may not sound exactly the same. Whether or not this matters to you is about personal preference and the way you expect to use the instrument.

You have to spend a little time with each to see what they're good at compared to what you expect from them. This will depend on questions such as use: do you want to use a synth for a bass line, a lead, a riser or other transition sound, a background drone, a sound effect, chordal pads, etc. It will also depend on if you want a simple basic sound or a more complex evolving sound, or you're trying to mimic a classic sound (fat Moog bass, squelchy 303 line, smooth Oberheim or CS80 pad, an EMS VCS3 sequence, metallic DX7 electric piano, or a random sample/hold Arp 2600 patch, etc) or going for a more modern sound such as big Omnisphere pad, or wavetable/sample processed sound, etc, or maybe a classic analog modular patch.

Maybe start with some history of synths, specifically which synths were responsible for which classic sounds (to know what's possible and what to expect from a classic synth).

Here's some quick reading for you, if you're interested:
https://www.factmag.com/2016/09/15/14-m ... nt-synths/
http://www.vintagesynth.com/articles/fi ... unds-songs
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/7-classic ... oog-synths
https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/th ... ime-224433
Selig Audio, LLC

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

28 Jul 2019

Learn the basics first then branch out into RE/Thirdparty later.
TYPES of synths, tell you what the synths do exactly.
Some modules, have multiple types and let you make your own type.
The default types you will find in music is maybe 13 tops.
Subtractive is most simple one.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

samsome
Posts: 364
Joined: 18 Dec 2015

28 Jul 2019

what is the main reason Parsec produces clear sounds? rather than using other synths?

thank you for your answers!

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Loque
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015

28 Jul 2019

samsome wrote:
28 Jul 2019
what is the main reason Parsec produces clear sounds? rather than using other synths?

thank you for your answers!
Additive synths rather tend to a have a more clear, crystalized sound, with a cripsy high end, than a warm bottom end. Just my opinion. Just imagine a simple wave form where you can add high overtone to it, which results in a slighty belly, high end nosiy sound of the original. Pretty impossible with classic analog or subtractive gear.
Reason12, Win10

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

28 Jul 2019

Parsec has sine waves placed at different places and the sine waves probably not touching eachother.
Which would be like using a bunch of regular oscillators with sines being tuned but not touching eachother.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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boingy
Posts: 791
Joined: 01 Feb 2019

28 Jul 2019

samsome wrote:
28 Jul 2019
Hi i've been messing with virtual synths some time now but i still have no idea why i would choose one synth over another

Just so i get an idea

can you please tell me why you would use Thor Over Subtractor Or Malmstrom

and any further information to make me get a better idea when to use each

Wouldn't thor be able to produce all sounds anyway?

i need help :X
Yes, lots of synths sound very similar and can make very similar sounds to each other. Use the one that you "connect" with. You can go a long way with just Subtractor and Thor plus a drum loop or two.

Later on you'll likely catch "GAS" and then you'll have more synths and effects than you can name, then you can come on here and tell us at great length how the, say, second harmonic of OSC3 is the best thing you've ever heard... :thumbs_up:

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hurricane
Competition Winner
Posts: 1722
Joined: 14 Oct 2017

28 Jul 2019

Back in my trance days when I was into fat supersaws and thick and juicy and wide this or that, I used to shit on Subtractor because it couldn't do that on its own. And then even if you layered it and put a ton of FX on it all, it still wouldn't match the rich, glossy, 3D, hi-fi sound of say...Sylenth, for example. So then when I started doing 80s influenced stuff, I realized Subtractor was PERFECT for that. It's really good for 80s brass and other Juno-y types of things. The only thing it needs is a good chorus attached to it (reason's stock chorus is crap). I can do a whole track using Subtractor. Actually, I already did - all non-drum/perc sounds are Subtractor, including the "guitars":

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Reasonable man
Posts: 589
Joined: 14 Jul 2016

28 Jul 2019

Often there would be no real reason why you'd choose one synth over another esp if you're not after any specific sound in particular.
I think it's more to do with 'if' you have a specific sound in your head ......then you might narrow your search down to just a few synths.
For producing modern music you'll need a good moogish/analogue style synth, a good subtractive synth and a wavetable synth. But you wll also need a good granualr, Fm, and additive synth synth as well imo. Then you have the hybrid synths that combine two or more synthesis types.

You like Brian Eno ? ... if so google the tracks of his you like and research which hard/soft synths he used and look for the equivilant within the reason eco system etc etc

Its a long road man ..i think i remember a thread in here sometime ago stating that Eno spent 10 years learning just one synth or something... or maybe it was somewher else or i just imagined it!

DonnieAlan
Posts: 271
Joined: 25 Jan 2017

29 Jul 2019

samsome wrote:
28 Jul 2019
Hi i've been messing with virtual synths some time now but i still have no idea why i would choose one synth over another

Just so i get an idea

can you please tell me why you would use Thor Over Subtractor Or Malmstrom

and any further information to make me get a better idea when to use each

Wouldn't thor be able to produce all sounds anyway?

i need help :X
So far lots of good comments in answer to your question. But I'll throw in my take anyway, FWIW. Just like in the hardware world, VI's have their own character, even if they both have the same basic architecture. In the hardware world, for example, there's a reason why there have always been so many options and kinds of synths you could buy. They all have their own color/character and ways of shaping, creating, and manipulating sound. The same is also true in the virtual world. No two VI's, no matter how similar in structure, will sound the same.

That said, part of the answer to your question is what sort of sound/tone/color/feel are you going for, and which of your VI's gives that to you? Also, as also pointed out above, some VI's are better at certain categories of sound than others. Subtractor, for example, can give you some dynamite sounding bass patches, or some cool bright leads. For deep rich, textured pads...not so much. So, you need to think about that as well.

The truth is there's no one right or wrong approach. The key is to experiment. Try different sounds with different VI's playing the same part and compare. Then choose based on what is closest to your vision for the track. I often create a midi track of a part, and then I'll run it through 20-30 different sounds, sometimes with multiple VI's before selecting what VI and/or patch I'll use. And I never use a factory preset anyway. I always either edit or start from scratch. For me, presets, whether factory installed, or purchased as a patch library, are just starting points. Never be afraid to edit/tweak a patch.

And rule number 1: Have fun!!! That rule is inviolate!

A good friend of mine often says: "The great thing about digital audio is there are 6 ways to do something. The bad thing about digital audio is there are 6 ways to do something". He has a point!

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