Ok I Done It All Wrong

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Heigen5
Posts: 1505
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Location: Finland / Suomi

22 Jul 2019

Here: I just made a combi out of my mastering-chain, it has a ReaXcomp VST, which people can download for free here: http://reaper.fm/reaplugs/

and a Synapse GQ-7 Rack Extension - which I think is not a must and could be replaced with some other EQ of choice.

So basically taken I just tweak the first knob till I sound clean and right.
The second knob is a ratio of the New York compression, which I also sometimes adjust a bit.
The third knob can be turned up if you want a bit more highs.
The fourth one is a input gain for to the last device which is a M-class Maximizer to make you not clip.

The buttons are just mapped to some of the devices for some small extra changes in the chain.


Anyway, the ReaXcomp is there too but I didn't map it to any knob or button. But This chain gets me a sound I want and I thought to share it... :)
Reflexion-X_Mastering.zip
(3.84 KiB) Downloaded 46 times

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Skimrok
Posts: 628
Joined: 12 Jun 2018
Location: U.K.

22 Jul 2019

Loque wrote:
21 Jul 2019
Skimrok wrote:
21 Jul 2019
I do have some bad habits after reading

I need to clarify something I been leaving the channel faders at 0db and been using the input gain pots at the top of the mixer , is this correct or wrong to do volume control?

I can’t even think why Ive done this and just checking is this ok to do? Or another facepalm moment for me


Thanks in advance
It controls the input to the SSL mixer, so yes you can use it. Note, that you do not have any metering there. Selig was using his "Selig Gain" for bringing the levels down and checking the peak.

You can try this, its free (but i am not sure if it shows peaks):
https://www.propellerheads.com/shop/rac ... /khs-gain/

Oh ok so in Seligs video if I put that device on every instrument or audio tracks which goes to the mixer chain I can use the crossfader to control the gain +/- on the seliq gain or put one at the last part of the mastering chain and check everything there , actually that be overall, so come on Skimrok think about this why am I having a hard time working this out

Right so yeah put seliq gain on everything up to the mixer it tell me the peaks individually +/-

And put one at the end of the chain so I can get the overall peaks?

Party :D :thumbs_up: ? Or still haven’t got it :oops: :thumbs_down: he!he!
Last edited by Skimrok on 22 Jul 2019, edited 1 time in total.
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Loque
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015

22 Jul 2019

Yea, exactly that. Just check, that the sound "leaves" the rack always with the same peak before it goes into the mixer.
Reason12, Win10

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Skimrok
Posts: 628
Joined: 12 Jun 2018
Location: U.K.

22 Jul 2019

Loque wrote:
22 Jul 2019
Yea, exactly that. Just check, that the sound "leaves" the rack always with the same peak before it goes into the mixer.
Thank you :puf_wink: that’s the end of my gain pots at the top of the mixer I think ,this seems to be good visual to see things in real time which I think is going to be very handy
12 with 11 Suite :reason:/ Akai Mini Mk3 / MPD218 /Eve SC207 Monitors / Mrs10 Sub / Motu M2 / Zen Can

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Skimrok
Posts: 628
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Location: U.K.

22 Jul 2019

reggie1979 wrote:
21 Jul 2019
I thought this was funny, kinda relevant.

Jackpot that’s the one :lol:
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User avatar
Skimrok
Posts: 628
Joined: 12 Jun 2018
Location: U.K.

22 Jul 2019

Heigen5 wrote:
22 Jul 2019
Here: I just made a combi out of my mastering-chain, it has a ReaXcomp VST, which people can download for free here: http://reaper.fm/reaplugs/

and a Synapse GQ-7 Rack Extension - which I think is not a must and could be replaced with some other EQ of choice.

So basically taken I just tweak the first knob till I sound clean and right.
The second knob is a ratio of the New York compression, which I also sometimes adjust a bit.
The third knob can be turned up if you want a bit more highs.
The fourth one is a input gain for to the last device which is a M-class Maximizer to make you not clip.

The buttons are just mapped to some of the devices for some small extra changes in the chain.


Anyway, the ReaXcomp is there too but I didn't map it to any knob or button. But This chain gets me a sound I want and I thought to share it... :)

Reflexion-X_Mastering.zip
I will look at this in due course I’m intrigued with this ;) :)
12 with 11 Suite :reason:/ Akai Mini Mk3 / MPD218 /Eve SC207 Monitors / Mrs10 Sub / Motu M2 / Zen Can

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napynap
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23 Jul 2019

On the mastering side, one thing I haven't seen discussed here so far is loudness. When it comes to your song being played within a playlist of other artists on broadcast or streaming services, it's dynamic range should be within a certain range so that it won't be too loud, or too quiet. Thankfully, the loudness wars are over and we can master without slamming to -0.1db. After my Selig Gain, I put a Flower Audio Loudness Meter to check the loudness range. There are many sources to learn about this, so I'm not going to detail it here, but it's good to put some kind of loudness meter in your workflow.
visit http://www.napynap.com to learn more about me. Thank you.

antic604

23 Jul 2019

I think this whole (1) write -> (2) mix -> (3) master order is a thing of the past and originates from times where those activities were separate professions / jobs and music was mostly performed & recorded, rather than created on a computer. Obviously this still applies if your music is like that and/or you can afford external mixing and mastering services.

Otherwise, unless you're doing something plainly stupid (like putting a multi-band compressor or saturation plugins early on on your Master) you should be fine. Especially for electronic music, where "mix" is often part of the signature sound.

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Skimrok
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Location: U.K.

23 Jul 2019

I understand where you are coming from I was clearly doing it wrong due to when I took off the limiter off on the tune it was miles over clipping because I had it on from the very start , so im more into getting it unclipped at the making and mixing stage on the tune with the- 3- /-6 peak guideline on the master fader then turn on the limiter at the end of the tune making and seeing Seliq gain showing the peaks seems it going to work well before I carry on to that stage , if I see a improvement on the instruments / midi / audio channels at the mixer and I will go backwards on everthing I done to date and do a compare and let my ears focus on the detail , I think this will be a good start for me little steps at a time with me so it sinks in my head before I carry on,obviously I need to sort that over clipping once and for all I think, the mixing as you go along could be good for me because I do electronic music ,I seem to like automation as I go along anyway so im custom to that but if its a no I change my ways to improve the end goal
12 with 11 Suite :reason:/ Akai Mini Mk3 / MPD218 /Eve SC207 Monitors / Mrs10 Sub / Motu M2 / Zen Can

antic604

23 Jul 2019

Skimrok wrote:
23 Jul 2019
I understand where you are coming from I was clearly doing it wrong due to when I took off the limiter off on the tune it was miles over clipping...
IMO you wasn't wrong to have limiter on the master. You were wrong to run your channels hot in the 1st place, which you should've already seen on the channels themselves. I always put a limiter on the Master (I even have it in the default template), simply because I try to keep my loudest channels around (negative) 12-18dB, so I actually increase gain on limiter to have it barely touching say -3dB while working, because otherwise I have to fiddle with system's loudness all the time (super quiet inside the DAW, very loud when doing anything else). I usually also have a steep high-pass EQ in the low end (say at 30Hz) on the mid signal and another one, much higher (say at 300-500Hz) on side signal, because I know they'll end up there anyway. But anything else - compressor(s), saturation, coloring EQs - only get added close to finishing.

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selig
RE Developer
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

23 Jul 2019

Loque wrote:
22 Jul 2019
Yea, exactly that. Just check, that the sound "leaves" the rack always with the same peak before it goes into the mixer.
Ultimately, I try to make sure the sound leaves EVERY device (gain stage) at the same peak. Exceptions are made for devices with no gain adjustments (MClass EQ, for example), and buses will be slightly higher.

Basically, individual channels peaking @ -12dBFS, sub-mix buses @ -6-9 dBFS. mix bus @ -3dbFS.
Selig Audio, LLC

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selig
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Posts: 11685
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

23 Jul 2019

napynap wrote:
23 Jul 2019
On the mastering side, one thing I haven't seen discussed here so far is loudness. When it comes to your song being played within a playlist of other artists on broadcast or streaming services, it's dynamic range should be within a certain range so that it won't be too loud, or too quiet. Thankfully, the loudness wars are over and we can master without slamming to -0.1db. After my Selig Gain, I put a Flower Audio Loudness Meter to check the loudness range. There are many sources to learn about this, so I'm not going to detail it here, but it's good to put some kind of loudness meter in your workflow.
For measuring loudness I simply use VU + PEAK mode on the big mixer, which in that mode effectively shows crest factor. I shoot for a crest factor of 12dB on average for much of my work, and it's worked like a charm (been doing this since Record introduced the Big Mixer).

In my listening tests, my final loudness has always been "competitive" with similar projects, and I'm not killing dynamics either IMO. In extreme cases I use a different crest factor, for example a classical/soundtrack piece would have a larger crest factor, and a more aggressive/dance/rock track would have a smaller crest factor.

Big Meter rules!
Selig Audio, LLC

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selig
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Posts: 11685
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

23 Jul 2019

antic604 wrote:
23 Jul 2019
I think this whole (1) write -> (2) mix -> (3) master order is a thing of the past and originates from times where those activities were separate professions / jobs and music was mostly performed & recorded, rather than created on a computer. Obviously this still applies if your music is like that and/or you can afford external mixing and mastering services.

Otherwise, unless you're doing something plainly stupid (like putting a multi-band compressor or saturation plugins early on on your Master) you should be fine. Especially for electronic music, where "mix" is often part of the signature sound.
I've been doing this since mixing in the box in the late 1990s. BUT, there's no way to actually mix without knowing what all the instruments in the mix are, and without knowing which instruments are more important than others. For simple projects, this is easier, but for bigger projects I've found it can take more time to constantly adjust/fix an on-going mix than to start fresh. That being said, if you spend 20 years practicing working this way, it DOES get easier! ;)

As you point out, I too have experienced much better mixes by keeping all master inserts/mastering OFF during 90% of the mix process. This forces me to make the "raw" mix as great as possible, which means adding mastering takes it from "great" to "amazing". I've always promoted making a strong foundation with your production because it makes each subsequent stage easier and ends up with superior results IMO. That is to say, if you start with great drums and a great beat/arrangement, mixing is even easer. And when mixing is easier, the results are better. And when the mix is better, mastering is easier, and so on. Which is why it;'s also better to start with good song ideas…
Selig Audio, LLC

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napynap
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Location: Palmdale, CA
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24 Jul 2019

selig wrote:
23 Jul 2019
napynap wrote:
23 Jul 2019
On the mastering side, one thing I haven't seen discussed here so far is loudness. When it comes to your song being played within a playlist of other artists on broadcast or streaming services, it's dynamic range should be within a certain range so that it won't be too loud, or too quiet. Thankfully, the loudness wars are over and we can master without slamming to -0.1db. After my Selig Gain, I put a Flower Audio Loudness Meter to check the loudness range. There are many sources to learn about this, so I'm not going to detail it here, but it's good to put some kind of loudness meter in your workflow.
For measuring loudness I simply use VU + PEAK mode on the big mixer, which in that mode effectively shows crest factor. I shoot for a crest factor of 12dB on average for much of my work, and it's worked like a charm (been doing this since Record introduced the Big Mixer).

In my listening tests, my final loudness has always been "competitive" with similar projects, and I'm not killing dynamics either IMO. In extreme cases I use a different crest factor, for example a classical/soundtrack piece would have a larger crest factor, and a more aggressive/dance/rock track would have a smaller crest factor.

Big Meter rules!
One of the reasons why I put that Flower Audio RE after your Selig Gain is that I use your MONO button. I've been wondering if going to mono will change your 'crest factor'. So far, it seems the same loudness either way. Do you see no change using your method with VU+PEAK? What are your thoughts on this? Thank you in advance.
visit http://www.napynap.com to learn more about me. Thank you.

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selig
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Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

24 Jul 2019

napynap wrote:
24 Jul 2019
One of the reasons why I put that Flower Audio RE after your Selig Gain is that I use your MONO button. I've been wondering if going to mono will change your 'crest factor'. So far, it seems the same loudness either way. Do you see no change using your method with VU+PEAK? What are your thoughts on this? Thank you in advance.
Unless you are exporting in mono, what does it matter? But yes, it's the same unless there are serious problems with polarity or phase.

Extreme example: one channel polarity flipped, which would result in total silence when switched to mono, which will read differently on ANY meter that follows.

Since crest factor is a good indicator of loudness, it should track the same with loudness changes. Knowing the LUFS value is important if you are submitting mixes to a company that is strict about you hitting a very specific value (I would use the same tools as they use if that was the case).

Otherwise, the loudness you choose for your mix is YOUR decision - that is the whole point of streaming services adjusting the playback level. If you mix "loud", they will simply turn your mix down so it sounds the same as other mixes. If you mix "soft", they will turn it up to match. This is like having someone adjusting your volume knob for you, nothing more, so the only thing that matters is how you mix SOUNDS.

Mixing loud vs soft changes the way the mix sounds - you can't adjust loudness without affecting other factors which would include crest factor (average to peak ratio). The only way to make a mix louder that already peaks at 0 dBFS is to reduce the relationship of the peaks to the average. Side affects are loss of transients and distortion (obviously), plus reduction of overall dynamics (with the louder parts sounding different than before, and the softer parts increased in level).

One example to illustrate this point would be to submit 5 mixes and have them streamed from softest to loudest. The "change" you would hear would be more distortion, less transit information, and less dynamics. Theoretically, the mixes won't get louder, they will simply sound different (and at some point) began to sound worse).

Thus, your job will be to find the spot where as you increase loudness, the mix begins to sound worse not better, and don't go past that point!

That's it - like a doctor, your first mandate should be "do no harm"! ;)
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
Skimrok
Posts: 628
Joined: 12 Jun 2018
Location: U.K.

24 Jul 2019

antic604 wrote:
23 Jul 2019
Skimrok wrote:
23 Jul 2019
I understand where you are coming from I was clearly doing it wrong due to when I took off the limiter off on the tune it was miles over clipping...
IMO you wasn't wrong to have limiter on the master. You were wrong to run your channels hot in the 1st place, which you should've already seen on the channels themselves. I always put a limiter on the Master (I even have it in the default template), simply because I try to keep my loudest channels around (negative) 12-18dB, so I actually increase gain on limiter to have it barely touching say -3dB while working, because otherwise I have to fiddle with system's loudness all the time (super quiet inside the DAW, very loud when doing anything else). I usually also have a steep high-pass EQ in the low end (say at 30Hz) on the mid signal and another one, much higher (say at 300-500Hz) on side signal, because I know they'll end up there anyway. But anything else - compressor(s), saturation, coloring EQs - only get added close to finishing.
yeah I totally agree thanks for pointing that out :thumbs_up: ;)
12 with 11 Suite :reason:/ Akai Mini Mk3 / MPD218 /Eve SC207 Monitors / Mrs10 Sub / Motu M2 / Zen Can

User avatar
Skimrok
Posts: 628
Joined: 12 Jun 2018
Location: U.K.

24 Jul 2019

selig wrote:
23 Jul 2019
Loque wrote:
22 Jul 2019
Yea, exactly that. Just check, that the sound "leaves" the rack always with the same peak before it goes into the mixer.
Ultimately, I try to make sure the sound leaves EVERY device (gain stage) at the same peak. Exceptions are made for devices with no gain adjustments (MClass EQ, for example), and buses will be slightly higher.

Basically, individual channels peaking @ -12dBFS, sub-mix buses @ -6-9 dBFS. mix bus @ -3dbFS.
Very helpful Seliq :thumbs_up: ;)
12 with 11 Suite :reason:/ Akai Mini Mk3 / MPD218 /Eve SC207 Monitors / Mrs10 Sub / Motu M2 / Zen Can

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napynap
Posts: 123
Joined: 08 Sep 2017
Location: Palmdale, CA
Contact:

25 Jul 2019

selig wrote:
24 Jul 2019
napynap wrote:
24 Jul 2019
One of the reasons why I put that Flower Audio RE after your Selig Gain is that I use your MONO button. I've been wondering if going to mono will change your 'crest factor'. So far, it seems the same loudness either way. Do you see no change using your method with VU+PEAK? What are your thoughts on this? Thank you in advance.
...Unless you are exporting in mono, what does it matter? But yes, it's the same unless there are serious problems with polarity or phase.

...That's it - like a doctor, your first mandate should be "do no harm"! ;)
Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed response. I learn something everyday! As for your question 'What does it matter?', Since I don't know what algorithms the streaming services are using today or in the future to determine if our masters are in a suitable loudness or crest factor range, I have to assume they may also be checking if it works in MONO as well. I've seen several mastering workflows that include this crucial check for phase/cancellation, etc... So I wondered if it would also have an effect on dynamic range. So far, my master meters haven't shown any noticable difference either way, which has been surprising to me.
visit http://www.napynap.com to learn more about me. Thank you.

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

25 Jul 2019

napynap wrote:
25 Jul 2019

Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed response. I learn something everyday! As for your question 'What does it matter?', Since I don't know what algorithms the streaming services are using today or in the future to determine if our masters are in a suitable loudness or crest factor range, I have to assume they may also be checking if it works in MONO as well. I've seen several mastering workflows that include this crucial check for phase/cancellation, etc... So I wondered if it would also have an effect on dynamic range. So far, my master meters haven't shown any noticable difference either way, which has been surprising to me.
That's why checking your mix in mono is important - if you see a level drop or instruments "disappear" from the mix, you know you have a problem. And conversely, if it sounds pretty much the same in mono as stereo, you're good to go. Note: also good to listen to "one speaker mono" when possible.

As for the algorithm used, it's measuring LUFS same as any meter, and simply applying a basic level offset, same as adjusting playback volume by the user.

So if you prefer to mix more dynamically and not go for "loud", you mix will automatically be turned up to match those still fighting the loudness wars - and everyone wins! The opposite happens if you decide to mix super loud - your mix is turned down, same as a listener would do when that track started playing!

And in the end, your mix can never be softer or louder than anyone else, so why not simply make it sound the way YOU want it to sound, and ignore the loudness wars. Of course, if you're mastering for vinyl you'd want to do things differently to fit the physical medium, but otherwise…

…Mix for greatness, not loudness!
Selig Audio, LLC

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Skimrok
Posts: 628
Joined: 12 Jun 2018
Location: U.K.

29 Jul 2019



Is this good advice by Ryan? :geek:
12 with 11 Suite :reason:/ Akai Mini Mk3 / MPD218 /Eve SC207 Monitors / Mrs10 Sub / Motu M2 / Zen Can

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