In my search for a controller with motorized faders I came across a lot of mixed reviews on limited/poor support from PHead's to allow many popular MIDI controllers to work optimally with all the features included. Many of these opinions came from this forum but are 4-5+ years old now. Some came from reasoners on Reddit which also are a few years old.
So I ask owners of all controllers on their opinions today for a more recent update. Has Pheads improved support for controllers? If not, does PHeads need to take responsibility and update their protocols? Did you have to perform unnecessary tweaking to codex for your devices to perform properly? What controllers do you have and do you recommend them?
Thanks
Opinions on Phead's support for MIDI controllers
I've got the Nektar Panorama P6 with 1 master motorized fader and 9 un-motorized faders, plus rotaries and push buttons, and it's very responsive. Best controller for Reason IMHO. They have improved the semi-weighted keyboard action greatly. I really love the P6.
user since 2002
It's a weird blame game companies play. Simply passing the buck. When a company really wants their controller to work with a DAW, they map it themselves. That's why the Nektar controllers work so well. Remote is easily accessible. I doubt the people at Ableton mapped all the controllers deeply compatible with Live themselves. Most companies just don't want to go the extra mile.
I haven't had a Nektar controller, but all others I've found to be more hassle than it's worth.
My current M-Audio Code 61 has a great keybed and a bunch of un-used sliders and knobs! My Novation Remote Zero similarly has cosmetic appeal only.
The issue is more than mapping, it is about consistency in the user experience between software instruments. For example one slider should always be filter cutoff, another should always be amp envelope attack, another the oscillator 2 level, etc... Which is pretty difficult for any vendor to do when soft synths are so varied and complex these days. e.g. Why have one filter cutoff when there are two filters and then really the two Filter cutoff controllers should be side by side, but then for another synth you'd want resonance to be beside filter cutoff..... and so on.
To me, that's the really big issue, and why it's always going to be faster using the mouse in reference to the on-screen GUI, than trying to remember a controller mapping (even when there's a little LCD display providing some cryptic abbreviation for each knob).
I do like the idea of a faderport single slider controlling where the mouse is hovering but that's not ideal either. On a hardware synth, often the best happy accidents are found when you're twiddling two parameters simultaneously.
My current M-Audio Code 61 has a great keybed and a bunch of un-used sliders and knobs! My Novation Remote Zero similarly has cosmetic appeal only.
The issue is more than mapping, it is about consistency in the user experience between software instruments. For example one slider should always be filter cutoff, another should always be amp envelope attack, another the oscillator 2 level, etc... Which is pretty difficult for any vendor to do when soft synths are so varied and complex these days. e.g. Why have one filter cutoff when there are two filters and then really the two Filter cutoff controllers should be side by side, but then for another synth you'd want resonance to be beside filter cutoff..... and so on.
To me, that's the really big issue, and why it's always going to be faster using the mouse in reference to the on-screen GUI, than trying to remember a controller mapping (even when there's a little LCD display providing some cryptic abbreviation for each knob).
I do like the idea of a faderport single slider controlling where the mouse is hovering but that's not ideal either. On a hardware synth, often the best happy accidents are found when you're twiddling two parameters simultaneously.
In my opinion PH need to be doing this. Reason simply isn't popular enough for manufacturers to bother making mappings, at least compared to Live etc.
Another problem is that manufacturer maps often aren't that good, as they are usually put together by someone who doesn't know Reason well and may not even be a user.
Another problem is that manufacturer maps often aren't that good, as they are usually put together by someone who doesn't know Reason well and may not even be a user.
I would also say PH need to do something about this because it's not just one controller that is compatible with the most used DAWs but not with Reason, I've sold my Touche SE recently because it isn't really compatible with it and I needed to be putting a combinator on each track I wanted to make use of it.
But I also have a very limited functionality when using other controllers like Maschine MK3, Komplete Kontrol Keyboard or the ROLI Seaboard as well, partly because of the lack of MPE support in Reason. While these controllers are really working as expected in many other DAWs. I personally want to stick to Reason as my DAW, but if there is one argument for me to move to a different one it would be this lack of hardware support other DAWs have
But I also have a very limited functionality when using other controllers like Maschine MK3, Komplete Kontrol Keyboard or the ROLI Seaboard as well, partly because of the lack of MPE support in Reason. While these controllers are really working as expected in many other DAWs. I personally want to stick to Reason as my DAW, but if there is one argument for me to move to a different one it would be this lack of hardware support other DAWs have
I have to agree with you there. There is a lot of promise there and was actually pretty clever and forward thinking maybe when it came out, but dealing with the mapping format is horrible. Just make it any form of serialization (JSON, YAML, even the dreaded XML) that is not a TSV file.
One thing I have to give the current Remote implementation is that it was able to handle sending and receiving different MIDI CCs for a single slider from my Kurzweil. The otherwise excellent remoting implementation in Studio One couldn't handle that. I could also get it to work in Bitwig or Live through their scripting but I haven't bothered yet.
Have to agree. I don’t even use my Panorama anymore. The mouse is faster. I once worked in a studio with Pro Tools and a C24 controller completely integrated with motorized faders... I still used the mouse.
It sounds like the general consensus is similar to my personal experience. I have an akai lpd8 with 8 knobs that take away from a fluid workflow when I have to assign and then reassign the knobs to different device's parameters. I've tried adjusting the remote map file for RE's but the "define" command doesn't work for me.
My other controller is a Korg nanocontrol2 which has weird native parameter assignments but I exclusively assign it to the Master Section control for the SSL faders and pan pots. It's okay, but I am hoping to upgrade to motorized faders.
As mentioned prior, I end up using the mouse to avoid the frustrations. Can't do that with multiple parameters or adjust different fade-outs with faders simultaneously so it's been less then optimal. Reason is so close at capturing that complete hardware studio experience but the lack of ease to customize controllers prevent that feeling.
My other controller is a Korg nanocontrol2 which has weird native parameter assignments but I exclusively assign it to the Master Section control for the SSL faders and pan pots. It's okay, but I am hoping to upgrade to motorized faders.
As mentioned prior, I end up using the mouse to avoid the frustrations. Can't do that with multiple parameters or adjust different fade-outs with faders simultaneously so it's been less then optimal. Reason is so close at capturing that complete hardware studio experience but the lack of ease to customize controllers prevent that feeling.
I have the icon qcon pro + 2 icon x and I had to spend the better part of a month to rewrite the Mackie mapping for my controllers and there are things in reason that just can't be mapped so yes they need to get working on updating the support, Their mackie hue mapping is not even updated to controll new devices like Europe
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BigPictureSound
- Posts: 68
- Joined: 25 Jun 2019
After many years and dollars invested in hardware controllers, I can agree with the others who find them to be more trouble than they are worth. The idea of marrying analog motorized faders of yesteryear with modern digital workstations of today sounds useful until you actually implement it in your workspace where it quickly begins collecting dust because drawing in volume curves with envelope points using a mouse is just way faster and precise than recording the results of shaky hands fumbling between bank sets of 8 when the song has 100+ tracks.
The same goes for knobs and switches. It's just too much hassle to bother with, coupled with the fact that hardware can never have 1:1 parity with software. NI somewhat pulled it off with Maschine but the software had to be limited to achieve complete hardware control. I have an MK3 and we are all begging for proper envelope automation because recording knob tweaks by hand is terrible.
The issue is compounded further with hardware obsolescence and the niche market that midi controllers appeal to.
That is just my opinion, of course
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The same goes for knobs and switches. It's just too much hassle to bother with, coupled with the fact that hardware can never have 1:1 parity with software. NI somewhat pulled it off with Maschine but the software had to be limited to achieve complete hardware control. I have an MK3 and we are all begging for proper envelope automation because recording knob tweaks by hand is terrible.
The issue is compounded further with hardware obsolescence and the niche market that midi controllers appeal to.
That is just my opinion, of course
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I'm amazed no-one has published a standard for this yet. I use several different DAWs and some of them need you to load a specific setup into your controller which, of course, means that the controller is less compatible with other daws. What we need is a
General Controller" mode where, eg, the first knob on every controller sends the same CC. It doesn't solve the problem where soft synths have more knobs/buttons than the controller but it would allow a much more simple mapping process and the soft synth could have sensible defaults.
Cubase has an interesting take on it. You can map 8 knobs/sliders to "Track Quick Controls" and another 8 (or the same 8) to "Track VST Controls". These are global mappings in Cubase so stay constant across projects. Taking the "Track VST Controls" as an example, every VST you load up will automatically attach something sensible to those 8 knobs, usually oscillator or filter stuff. There is then a drop down in the track inspector that will switch the bank of 8 knobs to other categories like EQ, Send Levels, Vol/Pan etc. It's still not ideal but it usually gives something workable and you can still override it in the usual laborious way!
So, yes, Reason's support for controllers mostly sucks but the so do most other DAWs. Nektar have come the closest for Reason I think.
General Controller" mode where, eg, the first knob on every controller sends the same CC. It doesn't solve the problem where soft synths have more knobs/buttons than the controller but it would allow a much more simple mapping process and the soft synth could have sensible defaults.
Cubase has an interesting take on it. You can map 8 knobs/sliders to "Track Quick Controls" and another 8 (or the same 8) to "Track VST Controls". These are global mappings in Cubase so stay constant across projects. Taking the "Track VST Controls" as an example, every VST you load up will automatically attach something sensible to those 8 knobs, usually oscillator or filter stuff. There is then a drop down in the track inspector that will switch the bank of 8 knobs to other categories like EQ, Send Levels, Vol/Pan etc. It's still not ideal but it usually gives something workable and you can still override it in the usual laborious way!
So, yes, Reason's support for controllers mostly sucks but the so do most other DAWs. Nektar have come the closest for Reason I think.
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electrofux
- Posts: 870
- Joined: 21 Jan 2015
When it comes to Midi Controller support all participants of the party could do a much better job.
-Pheads havn't updated Remote for ages. And it could use an update.
-Midi Controller manufacturers should invest the little time it takes to support available DAWs and update remote support at least for their most popular controllers from time to time. Really, thats what those controllers are meant to work with and it doesnt take that long to support a DAWs legacy functions and devices but increases the value of the controller. Heck, the mentioning of updated remote support on the usual chanels give them better advertising than any banner or similar.
-Plugin developers should sort their controls in a sensible way and put out generic maps with banks of 8 controls in mind. When i see plugins where the first control is Mod Envelope Sustain, i shake my head.
-Pheads havn't updated Remote for ages. And it could use an update.
-Midi Controller manufacturers should invest the little time it takes to support available DAWs and update remote support at least for their most popular controllers from time to time. Really, thats what those controllers are meant to work with and it doesnt take that long to support a DAWs legacy functions and devices but increases the value of the controller. Heck, the mentioning of updated remote support on the usual chanels give them better advertising than any banner or similar.
-Plugin developers should sort their controls in a sensible way and put out generic maps with banks of 8 controls in mind. When i see plugins where the first control is Mod Envelope Sustain, i shake my head.
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jetpilot00
- Posts: 51
- Joined: 27 May 2017
The lack of hardware support is why I use Studio One a lot more than I want. I really want to stay in Reason exclusively but the lack of support of the hardware I want to use has been beyond frustration.
Studio One's features when married to the Faderport is what has been missing in Reason for almost 20 years for me.
-JP
Studio One's features when married to the Faderport is what has been missing in Reason for almost 20 years for me.
-JP
***If life is a song, I've just passed the guitar solo.***
Thanks for everyone that has replied so far!
In terms of ease-of-use I agree that mouse clicking in fader adjustments is better, but you lose the "feel" of mixing tracks when doing so. I'm on a version that doesn't have bounce to audio track so I find a sense of old-school pleasure in enabling "Rec Source" to midi instruments or heavy DSP effects and printing them down to their own audio tracks. Also helps prevent me from back tracking so when I bounce, I'm committing to the production of the sound or committing to the channels mix settings.
I hope Pheads reads all these comments and makes R11 a "fix what we've been neglecting" version. Would love for Remote to get a much needed update. Especially if they listen to our Combinator2 requests and give it more rotary knobs (at least 8) since most midi controllers have 8 built in to them.
Maybe amcjen's project will be exactly what I'm looking for. I'm hoping to contribute to the kickstarter if all goes well.
In terms of ease-of-use I agree that mouse clicking in fader adjustments is better, but you lose the "feel" of mixing tracks when doing so. I'm on a version that doesn't have bounce to audio track so I find a sense of old-school pleasure in enabling "Rec Source" to midi instruments or heavy DSP effects and printing them down to their own audio tracks. Also helps prevent me from back tracking so when I bounce, I'm committing to the production of the sound or committing to the channels mix settings.
I hope Pheads reads all these comments and makes R11 a "fix what we've been neglecting" version. Would love for Remote to get a much needed update. Especially if they listen to our Combinator2 requests and give it more rotary knobs (at least 8) since most midi controllers have 8 built in to them.
Maybe amcjen's project will be exactly what I'm looking for. I'm hoping to contribute to the kickstarter if all goes well.
There are folks who make custom codecs. It's a specialized skill. I'd hope Props make some improvements here.Luxuria wrote: ↑02 Jul 2019In my search for a controller with motorized faders I came across a lot of mixed reviews on limited/poor support from PHead's to allow many popular MIDI controllers to work optimally with all the features included. Many of these opinions came from this forum but are 4-5+ years old now. Some came from reasoners on Reddit which also are a few years old.
So I ask owners of all controllers on their opinions today for a more recent update. Has Pheads improved support for controllers? If not, does PHeads need to take responsibility and update their protocols? Did you have to perform unnecessary tweaking to codex for your devices to perform properly? What controllers do you have and do you recommend them?
Thanks
They do support some but some they dont.
About 10 years ago their support was much better but there were probably less controllers on the market and it would probably take a whole person's salary to keep up with this.
It is a two way street but in the end a controller with bad support for a popular DAW hurts both companies.
Some controllers might be easier to support as well.
Novation SL Automap user here. It works OK once you get it mapped, it is real work to make every single RE work. I don't like that you have to edit a text file and follow strict rules for format of the map to get it to work. This was acceptable maybe 15 years ago but feels like a very awkward way to work these days.
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Eugen Kloster
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 08 Jul 2019
Hi, can anyone tel me where to find the update for my p6 for reason 10 ?
As it is the remote protocol is quite powerful and despite its age you can do a lot with it.
The problem is more like to unleash the beast you need some skills in the lua scripting language and only a few midi controller manufacturers put the effort in implementing sophisticated codecs nor Propellerhead does.
Sure, Remote could be extended to support more remotable items in Reason or to put a framework/layer on top of Remote to map midi controllers faster esp. grid/matrix based pad controllers. Of even think of a visual editor (like Novation did with Automap). In the Remote developer forum quite a few feature requests were posted but it seems not of a high priority.
The problem is more like to unleash the beast you need some skills in the lua scripting language and only a few midi controller manufacturers put the effort in implementing sophisticated codecs nor Propellerhead does.
Sure, Remote could be extended to support more remotable items in Reason or to put a framework/layer on top of Remote to map midi controllers faster esp. grid/matrix based pad controllers. Of even think of a visual editor (like Novation did with Automap). In the Remote developer forum quite a few feature requests were posted but it seems not of a high priority.
Sended i couple of mails about the non functional BCR 2000 since 10.3 (beta) updates and 10.4
Their response is that this is a know bug and the team is working on it, they couldn't give any more information when this will be fixed.
The controller works flawless with 10.2.2. and older versions, something was scrambled during the performance update 10.3.
Fingers crossed this will be fixed on a point update..
Their response is that this is a know bug and the team is working on it, they couldn't give any more information when this will be fixed.
The controller works flawless with 10.2.2. and older versions, something was scrambled during the performance update 10.3.
Fingers crossed this will be fixed on a point update..
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Reasonstudios 11 Roland Quadcapture | AMD Ryzen 5900x|Elektron Analog Heat Mk2|Diy 3 way SB Acoustics/Scanspeak studiomonitors | AKG K702 | Keystation 61 MK3 |BCR2000 |X-Touch Ext | MP Midi
Reasonstudios 11 Roland Quadcapture | AMD Ryzen 5900x|Elektron Analog Heat Mk2|Diy 3 way SB Acoustics/Scanspeak studiomonitors | AKG K702 | Keystation 61 MK3 |BCR2000 |X-Touch Ext | MP Midi
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