So is it ok to only use Reason to export audio?

[tiger jackson]

Stumbled across a old, decade old thread on gearslutz where people talk about exporting audio out of reason messes up the quality, and it's best to rewire everything to another DAW to export the audio https://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip ... sions.html

But since this was a decade ago. I imagine some improvements have been made regarding this, or is it still recommended to rewire everything into another daw?

[guitfnky]

you’ll have no trouble with sound quality if you export from Reason. many of those comments make it clear they don’t really know what they’re talking about—just a bunch of internet experts hating on a particular piece of software they don’t understand.

[mashers]

Interesting question. One problem I had recently was that the exported audio from Reason for one particular track was clipping at (seemingly) random points within a particular part. I turned off dithering and it solved the problem. So I wonder whether there's something going on with the dithering algorithm which can cause a clip even when there isn't one when playing back in Reason.

[Data_Shrine]

This is controversial. But I do notice a difference in audio quality when using Ableton to export Reason audio (using Rewire).

I think the big difference is that Reason will not downsample your audio (generated from soft synths/FX). So if you run your session at 88.2khz, and then export at 44.1khz, then Reason will run your whole track at 44.1khz, and exports it that way. It will not run your track at 88.2khz and then downsample it to 44.1khz.

The manual states that Reason will downsample audio - from audio files. No mention of downsampling the generated audio at export (unlike Ableton, which will update it's export menu to tell you what is happening).

My 2 cents is that, you should export your track at full quality (and 24-bit instead of 16-bit), and then downsample the audio somewhere else. But you don't need to do this if your tracks are mastered by someone else. The person doing the mastering will take care of proper downsampling / dithering.

[Boombastix]

Well, there are tiny differences between DAWs in some aspects, and then some are just what happens in digital audio.
1. Zipper noise. Quick volume changes can introduce zipper noise (sort of quantization noise). For that reason Reason has a lag feature, but I think it was Logic (might have been another DAW) that did not, so if you stack 10 gain knobs and do fast transitions on a pure sine wave you can actually hear it. Something to keep in mind of you do fast automation transition, say, just as a kick hits, it may be a lag and the initial attack is lost, or vice versa, the initial transient passed on before the filter/volume automation drops down.
2. Re-sampling - that is an algorithm that the DAW manufacturer has to implement and they can differ. One DAW manuf recently said in their update notes they had improved their re-sampling, and some users had been complaining in the past (forgot who it was). I guess there can be teeny/tiny differences here, but I doubt the KVR complainers know what it sounds like and what to listen for, at least 99% of them I do not think this is a real world issue though, if you export for mastering, even if there is a 0.25dB difference at 20kHz...
3. Dithering - probably not an issue if they are slightly different as they produce, AFAIK, sooooo similar results.
4. Clipping - this is a digital audio issue, not DAW specific. When a wave is recreated it can go into clipping if it was previously normalized (i.e. zero head room), hence some mastering tools has ISPL. Alternatively you export with a 1.5dB head room on the stems and it will not clip. Same problem applies when converting a wav to mp3, if you have 0dB normalization there can be some clipping from the conversion.
5. Export sample rate setting vs working setting in VSTs - now this is interesting and I do not know. Would a 96kHz working file but exported as a 44kHz force , say, the subtractor to render at 44 and have its aliasing issues or will it render its audio at 96?

But, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Ostermilk]

If you have to ask others if your Reason exported audio is of a 'worse' quality than that exported from a another DAW or application I'd say you don't need to worry about it.

Dithering is only required when reducing bit depth say from 24 bit to 16 bit, the difference between dithering algorithms or not dithering at all is very trivial compared to getting everything else right. Sampling rate reduction has also improved over the years, although it wasn't a problem by the time thread you were looking at was active anyway.

[Oquasec]

Nope. Makes zero sense. Rewire back in the day was for VST support & only a few daws export at 64bitdepth anyways.
Stock plugins are different for each daw as well, can't be compared.

[selig]

Interesting question. One problem I had recently was that the exported audio from Reason for one particular track was clipping at (seemingly) random points within a particular part. I turned off dithering and it solved the problem. So I wonder whether there's something going on with the dithering algorithm which can cause a clip even when there isn't one when playing back in Reason.

Dithering shouldn't have anything to do with clipping, since it is added at around -90dBFS for 16 bit files. Your comment makes me want to ask more questions: aren't you using a brick wall limiter when exporting your master at 16 bits? How did you determine the export was clipping?

[bitley]

I hear no problems with any Reason version.

I wouldn't have any problems working with an older version if that would be the situation when working with a client or cowriting in another studio.

I've never ever understood how people can misunderstand a product like this.

I've been happy with all audio exports from 1.0 and onwards.

[mashers]

Interesting question. One problem I had recently was that the exported audio from Reason for one particular track was clipping at (seemingly) random points within a particular part. I turned off dithering and it solved the problem. So I wonder whether there's something going on with the dithering algorithm which can cause a clip even when there isn't one when playing back in Reason.

Dithering shouldn't have anything to do with clipping, since it is added at around -90dBFS for 16 bit files. Your comment makes me want to ask more questions: aren't you using a brick wall limiter when exporting your master at 16 bits? How did you determine the export was clipping?

There wasn't a brick wall limiter, though interestingly before I read your post I added the free Kilohertz limiter on the master section and it solved the problem. I don't usually do this though, as I'm getting my mixes as balanced as possible before sending for mastering (eventually). So loudness isn't a major consideration.

In this particular case the clipping was audible, and I could also see it on the waveform of the mixdown in Audacity. It was definitely there when dithering was on, and not when it was disabled. I can't explain it, but it definitely happened

[Magnus]

The way to resolve this is to load one of your projects and then do an export using Reason and then do another export using ReWire into another host (make sure to include the Reason Master Bus, exclude any plugins on the Master Bus in the other DAW, and use identical sample, bit-rate and dither options to keep the comparison fair). Perform a null test on the two exported files and see if what you hear (if anything!) is worthy of wasting your time going down the ReWire route. If the files actually null then there is zero difference.

[jlgrimes]

Stumbled across a old, decade old thread on gearslutz where people talk about exporting audio out of reason messes up the quality, and it's best to rewire everything to another DAW to export the audio https://www.gearslutz.com/board/rap-hip ... sions.html

But since this was a decade ago. I imagine some improvements have been made regarding this, or is it still recommended to rewire everything into another daw?

You should be fine. Props have tweaked the audio engine over the years. Only time you might want to use something else is if you are exporting to a sample rate different than the original project and even in that case it may/may not be an issue as different DAWs are all over the place on this issue. But as long as you are sticking to one sample rate, Reason should do this perfectly.

[bitley]

The audio engine has been great since 1.0. These are just very tiresome complaints from users with really incorrect sound settings or with little or no understanding of the basic concepts of a synthesizer based studio.

All audio exports will of course differ from each other when
1. There are PW modulation or any LFOs affecting things - and Reason has lots of them.
2. Compression is set too high - it will not operate exactly the same on each single transient every time. It's a continous dynamic calculation altering just slightly - just like a real compressor does.
3. There are any altering samples in any of the NNXTs.

A full arrangement can have hundreds of LFO like continous movements in both synths and effects; movements designed to be there as they act exactly like hardware. This means audio exports can and will sound just slightly different each and every time.

This is correct behaviour and done by design.

[Boombastix]

Perform a null test on the two exported files and see if what you hear (if anything!)

This not correct. It will most likely end up with something after a null test as many synths/FX's now have drift and other circuit simulations, besides free running LFO, so things will have differences each time. There will most likely not be silence if you do this. For anyone who knows how to actually set up a perfect null test, well then, he/she probably have enough skill and insight of DSP to know that you don't need to. I explained above some of the minute differences there are but even the most experienced will be hard pressed to measure a difference, let alone hear a difference. I'll put this in the same bag as when someone says the like a "warmer" sound, only to see they used some equipment with a bit of top end roll off for one of the tests. It's just feeding "audio conspiracy" theories. I've heard people say that Kong doesn't knock, but did you know that Kong has three, yes 3, volume setting for each sample, and volume is one of the most deceiving changes to sound since the brain often perceives louder as better... Lot's of the Youtube comparisons don't even show that they have the same EXACT volume. 2dB may not seem much but the brain picks it up, but the listener may not understand that it does.

[Marco Raaphorst]

Dithering shouldn't have anything to do with clipping, since it is added at around -90dBFS for 16 bit files. Your comment makes me want to ask more questions: aren't you using a brick wall limiter when exporting your master at 16 bits? How did you determine the export was clipping?

There wasn't a brick wall limiter, though interestingly before I read your post I added the free Kilohertz limiter on the master section and it solved the problem. I don't usually do this though, as I'm getting my mixes as balanced as possible before sending for mastering (eventually). So loudness isn't a major consideration.

In this particular case the clipping was audible, and I could also see it on the waveform of the mixdown in Audacity. It was definitely there when dithering was on, and not when it was disabled. I can't explain it, but it definitely happened

probably something else is causing this.

if you make an export with and without dithering the peak levels of both files are exactly the same.

[Magnus]

Perform a null test on the two exported files and see if what you hear (if anything!)

This not correct. It will most likely end up with something after a null test as many synths/FX's now have drift and other circuit simulations, besides free running LFO, so things will have differences each time. There will most likely not be silence if you do this. For anyone who knows how to actually set up a perfect null test, well then, he/she probably have enough skill and insight of DSP to know that you don't need to. I explained above some of the minute differences there are but even the most experienced will be hard pressed to measure a difference, let alone hear a difference. I'll put this in the same bag as when someone says the like a "warmer" sound, only to see they used some equipment with a bit of top end roll off for one of the tests. It's just feeding "audio conspiracy" theories. I've heard people say that Kong doesn't knock, but did you know that Kong has three, yes 3, volume setting for each sample, and volume is one of the most deceiving changes to sound since the brain often perceives louder as better... Lot's of the Youtube comparisons don't even show that they have the same EXACT volume. 2dB may not seem much but the brain picks it up, but the listener may not understand that it does.

Ah yes, I hadn't thought about that. I often bounce a lot of my work to audio clips as I go along; so usually they would render identically every-time as all drift/random simulation has been baked into the clips by the point of mixdown.

I'm in agreement though that this thread is nonsense. The "Reason sound" theory has been debunked many times. Yes, if you use lots of Props factory presets your output will have a certain timbre but the Reason audio engine and digital summing itself are pristine as far as I can tell.

[Molotovbeatz]

Never had any problems with exporting my music in Reason.

[antic604]

Every time this topic goes up on to the top of the page I shake my head in disbelief - what's the premise here? That if someone would rewire Reason to other DAW (say, Logic) then it sends the signal pure and clean and perfect, but when it renders it to file by itself it will introduce distortions, imperfections, coloration, etc? Like that it will purposeful make it worse? Honestly - WTF?

[mashers]

Every time this topic goes up on to the top of the page I shake my head in disbelief - what's the premise here? That if someone would rewire Reason to other DAW (say, Logic) then it sends the signal pure and clean and perfect, but when it renders it to file by itself it will introduce distortions, imperfections, coloration, etc? Like that it will purposeful make it worse? Honestly - WTF?

I don’t think the intention was to imply that it was purposeful. But it’s possible of course for a piece of software to have such a flaw. I’m not saying Reason does, but it is possible and worth discussing if somebody has a concern about it.

[Oberlai]

A DAW that messes up exported audio... would have an extremely short life, wouldn't it

I suppose messed up audio could happen with an unforeseen bug, but it'd be quickly taken care of, no matter what DAW.

[Skimrok]

User is the error but user’s don’t like to admit it


I’m always doing errors Don’t blame the tools it’s the .......