The DAW update challenge!?

[guitfnky]

Totally agree, I never used the blocks until a couple of weeks ago where I found out how to use them as markers, and you're right, when using darker themes they don't look good. I prefer darker themes also, partly because of the visuals partly because I work all the day with computers and my eyes get tired much faster when watching light colors on the screen. The color palette would help customizing the UI in a nicer way using dark themes.

Man those are only pre-default colors... Just set the colors you want for the amount of blocks you use, and save them on your template files. When you start a new song from a template, the color is the one you selected. Done. Not everything is bad. Oh and to change the block color, you just have to get into block edit mode and color the block clip on the top. The color you select is then retained whenever you add the block to a song.

of course the colors stay the same if I’m using a template or otherwise save—that’s not the issue. like reddust said, the complaint is that the color options are limited. and my secondary complaint is that the blocks colors look ugly overlaid against the dark themes.

[QVprod]

You can force any effect to come first in the chain by adding it underneath the instrument device (so the instrument's outputs go directly to it before it reaches the mixer), rather than to in the insert section above it. Then you can put your other effects into the insert section to have them come after EQ/DYN.

Works for instruments. Not for audio tracks.

[QVprod]

You misunderstood me. If I’m using a console emulation plug I want it first in the chain. That doesn’t mean I want all inserts before EQ and DYN. And adding a take in a comp track in Studio One is a simple drag and drop. I mentioned that it was easier, not that it wasn’t possible.

But, a console emulation usually has eq, dynamics so... i'm really not getting your issue here... Are you saying you'd need to use Console Emulation -> Reason eQ/Dyn -> other inserts? Because this is the only scenario i see that you couldn't do...

Mixing isn't as that a complicated process...

Some have just saturation. Some have saturation and EQ. The scenario you mention here is exactly what I’m saying. Sure I could ignore the SSL entirely, but that kind of defeats the point of having a mixer page if I’m doing the whole mix from the rack view... Not an issue I have in Studio One. There are other things that are slower than DAWs that specialize in audio as well that I don’t think we really need to go into in this thread. I’m not new to Reason nor mixing... I really do know what I’m talking about... I was a %100 Reason guy back in the PUF day’s myself and back then I probably would’ve completely agreed with you.

My overall point of my posts in this thread though was that the most of the additions in the latest Studio One update aren’t missed by the typical Reason user, and not because Reason has it already as even the gain feature goes a little bit beyond what the one in Reason does, but most Reason users probably won’t need that extra benefit. So far you seem to agree with that.

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

Lol speaking of updates.... 10.4!

[mcatalao]

I’m not new to Reason nor mixing... I really do know what I’m talking about...

I don't doubt it.
I just think you're over complicating it.
But don't take it at heart, everyone has its own way of working, and it's objective and i respect that.

[DJDark2010]

Uff - That midi macros are huge - wish we could have that on Reason, too ... amazing how fast you can write music with that, and all even if the track is playing.

[QVprod]

I’m not new to Reason nor mixing... I really do know what I’m talking about...

I don't doubt it.
I just think you're over complicating it.
But don't take it at heart, everyone has its own way of working, and it's objective and i respect that.

I don't think I'm over complicating it, just rather than my preferred way of mixing doesn't work best for the way the mixer routing works in Reason. And that no knock to anyone who feels Reason is enough to them, If I'm simply doing an instrumental mix of a track made in Reason, I simply finish the mix in Reason. I switch when there's audio recordings involved.

[Ostermilk]

Ain't it great, Studio One, Reason and Windows just got updated and everything is working well here?

I like working in Reason, in fact I still do most creative stuff, writing, arranging and actual music making within Reason and I also like working with Studio One as that's strong in many areas too, both get updated and there's a downside?

[Raveshaper]

I have been one of the most uncompromisingly critical people against Reason on this board, so I'm no stranger to this general topic. Hell, I left because I was fed up. I mostly write code these days and don't have time for music. Now that I have substantially greater knowledge of Software Engineering, I see this whole "Reason is lagging behind" thing as a business matter, rather than a failing on the part of the people writing the program.

It's simple: the competition either has more funding through diversified markets, has a "software division", or uses a more scaleable and open-source code base.

What that means in business terms is that if you can hire more contractors to help crank out features faster or in more abundance, you invest in that to see a greater return through retention of established accounts. Conversely, if you run a "software division", you have established a sizable corps of engineers whose primary job is to write software, rather than do programming along side their creative gigs or SDK experimentation. Finally, if you use a more scaleable, open-source code base, development is much easier than in a highly granular, proprietary SDK.

The basic take away is that more money allocated for and more people dedicated to the job of making your product better, the faster you can progress.

In short, Reason as a project has linearly written itself into a corner without a clear initial outline, while the other apps are iterating on the skeleton of their already established plot.

A lot of this can be credited to the difference in culture between a software company that engineers audio programs and musicians who formed a company to experiment with making musical software.

Aside from culture, it is incredibly difficult to translate an entire application over to a different code base, especially when almost all elements within the ERD are polymorphic. Go and research ORM / ERD schema to get a better idea of just how complex Reason is internally (from an OOP perspective). Having done that, try to imagine keeping up with the mountain of to-dos inside a very small team who are also taking time out of the year to pursue side concerns, or to prevent total burnout from the workload.

Problem solving is what programmers do. It is far easier to program when there is a range of motion in how you solve a given problem, rather than having to address the requirements imposed by inflexible design decisions down the line. In many cases, those design decisions can come down to implementing specifications that best support the vision for the future of the product.

I would then guess, considering a lot of ROI is riding on it, the leadership change is meant to divest from the decisions that have persisted this dissatisfaction for this long. A radical course correct is probably coming. That said, as of now they almost can't address the issues people have with their progress. Not quickly, at any rate. And as before, I can't wait that long.

I wanted to make an engineering and business minded case for why this divide still exists.

All that taken into consideration, the only requirement to succeed is to switch to what works slightly better for you sooner than later, then keep doing that at each opportunity. Lookup the practice of Kaizen for more on the concept. If something doesn't work for you and you know it, it's an opportunity to improve toward success.

[Luxuria]

In short, Reason as a project has linearly written itself into a corner without a clear initial outline, while the other apps are iterating on the skeleton of their already established plot.

Aside from culture, it is incredibly difficult to translate an entire application over to a different code base, especially when almost all elements within the ERD are polymorphic. Go and research ORM / ERD schema to get a better idea of just how complex Reason is internally (from an OOP perspective). Having done that, try to imagine keeping up with the mountain of to-dos inside a very small team who are also taking time out of the year to pursue side concerns, or to prevent total burnout from the workload.

A radical course correct is probably coming. That said, as of now they almost can't address the issues people have with their progress. Not quickly, at any rate. And as before, I can't wait that long.

All that taken into consideration, the only requirement to succeed is to switch to what works slightly better for you sooner than later, then keep doing that at each opportunity. Lookup the practice of Kaizen for more on the concept. If something doesn't work for you and you know it, it's an opportunity to improve toward success.

Hey Raveshaper, thanks for the valuable information you shared in this post. I haven't been on here very long to get to know your history as a Reason user/modder but what really impressed me was the gif of when you created multi fader control possible.

Im getting ready to hit the hay, but I will check out ORM/ERD schema in the morning because I really do want answers such as your that PHeads aren't bold enough to admit (for sake of reputation I guess). Something did seem strange that it took them how many? 5+ months to just make the audio engine run RE's and VST's at variable buffer sizes.

It also saddens me that the new course correction appears to be, in my opinion, to ditch Reason as a DAW and focus on mobile/web/hardware services that adapt the stronger working elements of reason that set it apart (the instrument devices and RE platform off the ELK OS).

I will also take the opportunity to look into Kaizen as it sounds like it applies to better one self in many ways beyond this platform. I feel I'm shouting SOS for everyone to see what I inevitably predict is a slippery slope of Reason changing into something that is no longer a DAW or worse, dieing altogether as PHeads is sold off by the VC's and the buyer abandons it.

But my goal is to get off the forums for a bit and focus on enjoying my version of Reason for what it is.

Thanks for explaining it from the standpoint of a software engineer. That's really all I needed to hear.

[Raveshaper]

Hey Raveshaper, thanks for the valuable information you shared in this post. I haven't been on here very long to get to know your history as a Reason user/modder but what really impressed me was the gif of when you created multi fader control possible.

Im getting ready to hit the hay, but I will check out ORM/ERD schema in the morning because I really do want answers such as your that PHeads aren't bold enough to admit (for sake of reputation I guess). Something did seem strange that it took them how many? 5+ months to just make the audio engine run RE's and VST's at variable buffer sizes.

It also saddens me that the new course correction appears to be, in my opinion, to ditch Reason as a DAW and focus on mobile/web/hardware services that adapt the stronger working elements of reason that set it apart (the instrument devices and RE platform off the ELK OS).

I will also take the opportunity to look into Kaizen as it sounds like it applies to better one self in many ways beyond this platform. I feel I'm shouting SOS for everyone to see what I inevitably predict is a slippery slope of Reason changing into something that is no longer a DAW or worse, dying altogether as PH is sold off by the VC's and the buyer abandons it.

But my goal is to get off the forums for a bit and focus on enjoying my version of Reason for what it is.

Thanks for explaining it from the standpoint of a software engineer. That's really all I needed to hear.

Reason will not die as a product, but the way it's built will change from a monolithic design to something more like an architecture of distributed microservices. To what extent this architecture will be cloud based is anyone's guess, but I'm betting that Reason will largely act as the front end client for a primarily cloud based backend.

I say this because designing a collaboration-centric experience relies heavily on server-side technology. Why not place those concerns in the API where they belong, then simply do heavy lifting in the desktop app using linked lists to form audio graphs for most DSP, with room to offload processing power into the cloud at a later point. It just makes sense.

Of course, this means a total overhaul of the DevOps stuff they do right now. And as a business model, they could paywall features into different tiers more easily if the ecosystem went cloud based. Or, even create a subscription system to fund the new CI/CD pipeline.

Change is good.

[fieldframe]

Hey Raveshaper, thanks for the valuable information you shared in this post. I haven't been on here very long to get to know your history as a Reason user/modder but what really impressed me was the gif of when you created multi fader control possible.

Im getting ready to hit the hay, but I will check out ORM/ERD schema in the morning because I really do want answers such as your that PHeads aren't bold enough to admit (for sake of reputation I guess). Something did seem strange that it took them how many? 5+ months to just make the audio engine run RE's and VST's at variable buffer sizes.

It also saddens me that the new course correction appears to be, in my opinion, to ditch Reason as a DAW and focus on mobile/web/hardware services that adapt the stronger working elements of reason that set it apart (the instrument devices and RE platform off the ELK OS).

I will also take the opportunity to look into Kaizen as it sounds like it applies to better one self in many ways beyond this platform. I feel I'm shouting SOS for everyone to see what I inevitably predict is a slippery slope of Reason changing into something that is no longer a DAW or worse, dying altogether as PH is sold off by the VC's and the buyer abandons it.

But my goal is to get off the forums for a bit and focus on enjoying my version of Reason for what it is.

Thanks for explaining it from the standpoint of a software engineer. That's really all I needed to hear.

Reason will not die as a product, but the way it's built will change from a monolithic design to something more like an architecture of distributed microservices. To what extent this architecture will be cloud based is anyone's guess, but I'm betting that Reason will largely act as the front end client for a primarily cloud based backend.

I say this because designing a collaboration-centric experience relies heavily on server-side technology. Why not place those concerns in the API where they belong, then simply do heavy lifting in the desktop app using linked lists to form audio graphs for most DSP, with room to offload processing power into the cloud at a later point. It just makes sense.

Of course, this means a total overhaul of the DevOps stuff they do right now. And as a business model, they could paywall features into different tiers more easily if the ecosystem went cloud based. Or, even create a subscription system to fund the new CI/CD pipeline.

Change is good.

Whoa, slow down there! I don't doubt you're right that Reason is moving away from a monolithic architecture; the fact that Propellerhead has been dogfooding its own SDK since Reason 6 is a pretty clear indicator of that. And there's a good amount of cloud-based infrastructure involved in building Rack Extensions. But the idea of Reason becoming a thin client... I don't see it heading in that direction at all. With the failure of Allihoopa still in recent memory, I think there are other avenues Propellerhead is going to pursue before they try online collaboration again.

[Boombastix]

Reason will not die as a product

I agree with that, after looking at their profit statements for the last few years, I can tell you, it looks healthy. We don't know why the buffer size issue took so long, but if you have legacy code dating back 20yrs, well, how many of the original developers are still around? And those that are around, how fresh is that code in their memory? 12 mo, and out, and even the simple code if have written takes a nice chunk of time to get back into. And with yearly code add-ons, how much spagetti code was in there? Well, we don't know, but my assumption is that it took some time to get down in to the deep code dungeons and maybe they decided to clean up a lot of legacy code. But the good news is, that is now behind them, that we probably know.

Longevity of PH (and any DAW manuf) will be hinging on getting new revenue streams as the RE/VST market softens (assuming the buyers who have 10 monster synths, slow down their plugin investments).
So, where will new streams come from?

1. New users - well Reason Compact/Lite is a free point of entry. And Android will come as soon as the Android hw/sw is 100% functional. PH is on it, they said so. I think they are well positioned here.
2. If they can pull off to get more developers into the RE SDK by providing them with a one-click RE+VST, that will be another stream. This is the IDT2 (Gorilla engine), Umpf, Loopmasters VSTs, etc, will only get better.
3. The web stuff/Elk HW - not sure where that will go. I cannot see the vision here. As soon as CPU capacity goes up, the user will throw in more demanding VSTs or increase the sample rate. I cannot see how a browser based system would be ideal compared to dedicated DAW. Users want less latency and big song arrangements with many plugins w/o bouncing, and since Moores law is hitting the wall, at least for now, we do not see big CPU gains in the near future.
4. They need to get in on the loop sales, that is one aspect of what is changing among users. Think NI/Sounds, Akai/Splice. Loopmaster pull all their stuff from Splice, so things are heating up there. Splice got a big investment.
5. Few more things they need to figure out, where/how to capture new users. No DAW manufacturer have even moved in some obvious directions yet - surprisingly...

They must invest heavily in the sequencer, primarily the midi part, but soon enough also in the audio sequencer section. All other DAWs are getting some form of Rack/Combinator, so that selling feature is no longer unique, not for long. The competition is doing quite a bit in these areas, so catching up is needed. This so they stay relevant. Rewire is not a selling point, just a necessary evil in some cases.
Do they need to partner up (get sold to) a hw company (Akai?), I don't know, doesn't seem obvious as it stands today. Probably better to think about where the millions of kids congregates (see item 4 and 5)... They tried with Allihopa but failed, but then Apple failed with Newton, but Palm succeeded briefly with Palm OS, then Apple came back with a vengeance, the iPad was born, but same old Newton concept... So, I guess the thinking is kinda right, but execution must be a home run too. Maybe they need an app guy for CEO, oh wait...

Kaizen - is just an industry term loosely translated to "continuous improvement". I spent some years at an Ericsson mgt position, just like the new CEO Niklas. I expect he got well groomed in that area, just as all us managers were.
It will be interesting to see what the roll out next

[bitley]

I see a moaning thread and I see the video the thread refers to and I'm not the slightest impressed at all as I'm using Reason and proudly so. Get a moaning thread and put it in the back of the forum where nobody can see it please.

[QVprod]

Longevity of PH (and any DAW manuf) will be hinging on getting new revenue streams as the RE/VST market softens (assuming the buyers who have 10 monster synths, slow down their plugin investments).
So, where will new streams come from?

1. New users - well Reason Compact/Lite is a free point of entry. And Android will come as soon as the Android hw/sw is 100% functional. PH is on it, they said so. I think they are well positioned here.
2. If they can pull off to get more developers into the RE SDK by providing them with a one-click RE+VST, that will be another stream. This is the IDT2 (Gorilla engine), Umpf, Loopmasters VSTs, etc, will only get better.
3. The web stuff/Elk HW - not sure where that will go. I cannot see the vision here. As soon as CPU capacity goes up, the user will throw in more demanding VSTs or increase the sample rate. I cannot see how a browser based system would be ideal compared to dedicated DAW. Users want less latency and big song arrangements with many plugins w/o bouncing, and since Moores law is hitting the wall, at least for now, we do not see big CPU gains in the near future.
4. They need to get in on the loop sales, that is one aspect of what is changing among users. Think NI/Sounds, Akai/Splice. Loopmaster pull all their stuff from Splice, so things are heating up there. Splice got a big investment.
5. Few more things they need to figure out, where/how to capture new users. No DAW manufacturer have even moved in some obvious directions yet - surprisingly...

I like logical Reasoning. Thinking software is doomed because the company is exploring other avenues is a bit over the edge. Multiple streams of income is just good business. Besides, Creating a new account for Reason Compact comes with a free version of Reason Lite that will open files from a clearly very limited mobile app. I wonder if the people who think Props are gonna abandon Reason for mobile apps have ever used any of the Propellerhead apps? Aside from most of them being free, they're quite far from DAW replacements. They're all idea starters at best.

As far as ELK, I see this as forward thinking. It's not in a usable state just yet, but considering the many that perform live with laptops to run virtual instruments, a proper hardware solution to do that with is definitely marketable. Plus we've already seen Polysix (I believe it was) running in a modular setup. Props have positioned the RE format to be more marketable should that market take off, as as the compiling work is already taken care of for REs to be compatible. The web, I'm not as sure about, but it may be a great way for people to demo synths. However, even if they did make a complete web version of Reason (they haven't), it wouldn't replace a proper desktop version for obvious reasons.

[Ostermilk]

I see a moaning thread and I see the video the thread refers to and I'm not the slightest impressed at all as I'm using Reason and proudly so. Get a moaning thread and put it in the back of the forum where nobody can see it please.

This one should be called "Fleas and ticks asserting with absolute authority as to what the host dog should be doing!". Who cares!

If I could humbly suggest to some of our readers that perhaps a good work-out with this might be a bit more fun.

https://www.footballmanager.com/games/f ... nager-2019

[rgdaniel]

This one should be called "Fleas and ticks asserting with absolute authority as to what the host dog should be doing!". Who cares!

Not sure the flow of blood is in the right direction in this metaphor, given my tally of how much of my limited money is now in Props' coffers, but it sure did make me laugh!

[ltbrunt00]

People are crazy. I have Reason, Studio One and Bitwig. I am happy with all three. I do use reason about 80 percent of the time. even with all the enhancements in Studio one and Bitwig sequencer I find that I am still after all these years able to start and complete projects faster in reason. In a perfect world I would just take Studio One's sequencer and drop it in reason.

As for jumping ship never, I can't live without reason.

[Oquasec]

Yeah. It's fast cuz less features. It'll take longer to do stuff the more they add onto Reason for sure

[two shoes]

What struck me was the Germany guy who demoed the new midi features. It seemed he was working on actual tracks and experiencing the short comings in 4.0 ("clunkyness") and making sure the developers fix it in 4.5. They clearly have a vision to drive work flow improvements and they use S1 themselves to make full featured tracks. The CTO, Magnus, seems to be a visionary, but he does Europa on the web, Korg on Elk hw. I have no idea why I want/need those things. So, is it Mattias who sets the DAW vision, but we do not have the Presonus style interaction to provide him/them with user feedback? Nobody knows what they think and want to do. Are the listening to RT and make a plan? Are the trying out Cubase/S1 and so on to benchmark them? Or is it just bah, we'll do Allihopa 2.0 next...and phone apps?
I hope the new CEO buys S1 and/or Cubase, sits down and tries to produce a track and do the same in reason. Or as a time saver, get three guys to come in one day at the time and sit with them through the production of the full track. Like this:
Day 1: Reason track produced by a pro Reason user.
Day 2: Studio One 4.5 track produced by a pro S1 user.
Day 3: Cubase 10 track produced by a pro Cubase user.
Day 4: Reason track produced by a pro Reason user. This last day he can ask about the work flow features from day 2/3 and see how it is done in Reason or not possible.

How nice it was to see the midi clip window below the sequencer window, and you can work in both, with different tool bars one click away. And user assignable MACRO's. Yeah, it was some neat stuff. It makes me wonder if Cubase knew S1 4.5 was coming so they got thousands of people to cross grade for 150 bucks in the weeks before - what a conspiracy plot that is...

this is sad and hilarious at the same time - my favorite line is the one about the new Props CEO buying S1 and Cubase and producing a track in each of them vs reason. never know... he might be working on it right now!

[Oquasec]

If I had to produce in one of those 3 only it would be Reason hands down.
The other 2 is currently too much by themselves for me

[reddust]

Honestly I wouldn't like Reason to become a DAW like Studio One, Ableton Live, Bitwig or Cubase. I actually chose Reason because it's different, I've used Cubase and Ableton Live for years and while they have also unique features I don't plan to go back to any of them.

I really like Reason as it is and I'm sure PHs are not going to stop making improvements on this DAW because that is something every company needs to do if they don't want to end up loosing customers and dying. But I hope Reason stays in the same core line it's now and doesn't end up looking as boring as most DAWs out there right now (my opinion)

[Creativemind]

I did the "splice" thing with S1 and it was cool. But it's not Reason and why I like Reason. To each their own.

Does that mean that I don't wish Reason would adapt many aspects of Studio One? Poppycock. I wish they'd do the whole damn thing! But I have more fun and get more done with Reason.

It is what it is, disagreements abound

The "splice" thing? what, rent-to-own? if so can you freeze rent-to-own if you don't have the money that month and resume when you have?

[mmm]

Honestly I wouldn't like Reason to become a DAW like Studio One, Ableton Live, Bitwig or Cubase. I actually chose Reason because it's different, I've used Cubase and Ableton Live for years and while they have also unique features I don't plan to go back to any of them.

There´s certainly headroom for sequencer imprvovements within Reason (customizable Hotkeys would be nice for example) but i have to say that after having used Ableton and Sonar for a while, nothing managed to beat Reason´s workflow. For me personally, Reason enables me to visualize the signal path due to its skeuomorphic approach which really helps me to implement certain design choices in a fast and effective manner. Yes, sometimes it takes time getting all the cables right but i´ve built a system of templates where i can find usable starting points for all sorts of different devices. I´m a Reason user since Rebirth and by now i it feels like an extension to my brain, so maybe i am biased here.

[reddust]

The "splice" thing? what, rent-to-own? if so can you freeze rent-to-own if you don't have the money that month and resume when you have?

Yes, as far as the product is still in their list it seems you can do that:
https://support.splice.com/hc/en-us/art ... eneral-FAQ

I'm purchasing Serum that same way but never paused it, so I can't tell how it works.

There´s certainly headroom for sequencer imprvovements within Reason (customizable Hotkeys would be nice for example) but i have to say that after having used Ableton and Sonar for a while, nothing managed to beat Reason´s workflow. For me personally, Reason enables me to visualize the signal path due to its skeuomorphic approach which really helps me to implement certain design choices in a fast and effective manner. Yes, sometimes it takes time getting all the cables right but i´ve built a system of templates where i can find usable starting points for all sorts of different devices. I´m a Reason user since Rebirth and by now i it feels like an extension to my brain, so maybe i am biased here.

Yeah, same for me, I mean, I'm not that far in Reason that I can feel biased with it but it feels really intuitive for me in many aspects, I really like working with it even when I think there are still improvements to be made and some of them shouldn't really be very difficult to achieve. Now that you mentioned it, I'm still hoping to see a keyboard hotkey for the quantize option, can't understand why there isn't one for such a common function. Or maybe I'm just missing it...