The DAW update challenge!?

[Boombastix]

Studio One 4.5 just came out (a free upgrade), almost exactly one year after 4.0. It has a massive 70 feature updates, Mixer features á la Protools, Midi/Sequencer features á la Cubase, multi-core CPU efficiency boost. Apparently based largely on user feedback and Presonus interaction with the user base.
From a development point of view that means the coders need to spit out around two major feature upgrades per week!
What ya all think, can PH keep up or is the challenge to big?

A 1h launch promo:

[Luxuria]

Seeing this makes me a bit aggravated actually. Maybe it's time I jump ship. I've thought about being more vocal around here, but honestly I don't think anyone at Pheads is going to address the slow progress or even hint at what we can expect for 11. Some of the community here will either spin the studio one update as a negative or spin the lack of updates in reason as a positive. I bet you Reason 11 doesn't add more than 10 features in total at launch.

Whatever though. To each their own.

[QVprod]

I think they're serving very different audiences. Also, I don't these updates are as big as the seem. I watched the stream live earlier today and the new midi features put me to sleep while the audio additions (which are the majority of the new features) had me more excited. It's a hard comparison. Depends on your perception or needs. I just don't see Reason ever being a strong competitor for audio editing/engineering . It doesn't seem to fit with the design philosophy of Reason imo. Even back when Record was released, the tagline was that it was made for "musicians, not audio engineers" This particular update is huge for people from Pro Tools and Logic backgrounds but take that away and I don't think the average Reason user is missing out on much. I use them both and love them both for what they're best at.

[reggie1979]

I did the "splice" thing with S1 and it was cool. But it's not Reason and why I like Reason. To each their own.

Does that mean that I don't wish Reason would adapt many aspects of Studio One? Poppycock. I wish they'd do the whole damn thing! But I have more fun and get more done with Reason.

It is what it is, disagreements abound

[Boombastix]

What struck me was the Germany guy who demoed the new midi features. It seemed he was working on actual tracks and experiencing the short comings in 4.0 ("clunkyness") and making sure the developers fix it in 4.5. They clearly have a vision to drive work flow improvements and they use S1 themselves to make full featured tracks. The CTO, Magnus, seems to be a visionary, but he does Europa on the web, Korg on Elk hw. I have no idea why I want/need those things. So, is it Mattias who sets the DAW vision, but we do not have the Presonus style interaction to provide him/them with user feedback? Nobody knows what they think and want to do. Are the listening to RT and make a plan? Are the trying out Cubase/S1 and so on to benchmark them? Or is it just bah, we'll do Allihopa 2.0 next...and phone apps?
I hope the new CEO buys S1 and/or Cubase, sits down and tries to produce a track and do the same in reason. Or as a time saver, get three guys to come in one day at the time and sit with them through the production of the full track. Like this:
Day 1: Reason track produced by a pro Reason user.
Day 2: Studio One 4.5 track produced by a pro S1 user.
Day 3: Cubase 10 track produced by a pro Cubase user.
Day 4: Reason track produced by a pro Reason user. This last day he can ask about the work flow features from day 2/3 and see how it is done in Reason or not possible.

How nice it was to see the midi clip window below the sequencer window, and you can work in both, with different tool bars one click away. And user assignable MACRO's. Yeah, it was some neat stuff. It makes me wonder if Cubase knew S1 4.5 was coming so they got thousands of people to cross grade for 150 bucks in the weeks before - what a conspiracy plot that is...

[Oquasec]

I think rewire's the best solution for different workflows.
Cuz Ableton is not Cubase.
Studio one is not FL Studio ro Reason.
Protools is not Presonus.

[boingy]

Rewire has never been a good solution. It requires you to run two DAWs at the same time, each consuming precious CPU and memory and screen space. Saving rewired projects require you to save two sets of stuff. Reason can only be a Rewire slave and cannot use VSTs when Rewired. It's a clever technology but it's never going to be a great solution.

The fact is PH have taken their eye off the ball and spent far too much time on their latest greatest synth and on daft web browser experiments rather than keeping up with the competition. A new synth is just not as important now that we have VST. I sometimes wonder if anyone at PH ever looks at other DAWs, because that's what you need to do to stay competitive.

(Other opinions are available...)

[Oquasec]

Rewire is not bad : /
Using Reason as a vst is perfect.
Besides, they cover different areas and most of them do not have a monopoly over the modular market.

[soroc sosta]

Rewire is not bad : /
Using Reason as a vst is perfect.
Besides, they cover different areas and most of them do not have a monopoly over the modular market.

True! Reason rewired to Cubase very well.

[Ermitage]

Seeing this makes me a bit aggravated actually. Maybe it's time I jump ship. I've thought about being more vocal around here, but honestly I don't think anyone at Pheads is going to address the slow progress or even hint at what we can expect for 11. Some of the community here will either spin the studio one update as a negative or spin the lack of updates in reason as a positive. I bet you Reason 11 doesn't add more than 10 features in total at launch.

Whatever though. To each their own.

10 features? That's wildly optimistic. I think it's more likely that it'll just be HDPi support + one of their mediocre REs like Umph or Layers.

[diminished]

Why can they have parallel MIDI FX and we only have Players that run in series? @02m38s

[zoidkirb]

Seeing this makes me a bit aggravated actually. Maybe it's time I jump ship. I've thought about being more vocal around here, but honestly I don't think anyone at Pheads is going to address the slow progress or even hint at what we can expect for 11. Some of the community here will either spin the studio one update as a negative or spin the lack of updates in reason as a positive. I bet you Reason 11 doesn't add more than 10 features in total at launch.

Whatever though. To each their own.

10 features? That's wildly optimistic. I think it's more likely that it'll just be HDPi support + one of their mediocre REs like Umph or Layers.

My guess is we'll get at least another big new synth with 11 but probably more. I know people who've been using Reason for a while are probably all synth'ed out by now, but IMO Europa and Grain (and to a lesser extent Synchronous and Drum Sequencer) were huge draw cards for users NEW to Reason. I still remember the hype when when Europa came out, people proclaiming it to be competative to Serum etc.
I'm optimistic for HDPi and workflow improvements, but would not expect Props to telegraph too much ahead of release, much in line with the behaviour of Steinberg and Ableton. Maybe that's got something to do with not letting one's competetors know what you're up to?

[reddust]

I personally don't care about what Presonus does, I only use Reason at the moment, have used Cubase and Ableton Live in the past and at the end I've found out I prefer to concentrate in just one DAW and I like Reason even when it does need some improvements but not really big things in my opinion, I rather concentrate in making music and learn what my REs and VSTi's can do as I still have a lot to learn there.

[QVprod]

Why can they have parallel MIDI FX and we only have Players that run in series? @02m38s

S1 doesn't have parallel midi fx. You're looking at a multi-instrument. Basically the same thing you can do with a combinator in Reason.

[antic604]

Why can they have parallel MIDI FX and we only have Players that run in series? @02m38s

Parallel MIDI FX seems to make sense only to use the same MIDI data (clips) to be adjusted by said FX and played by different instruments. I think you can already achieve that using CV Player Tap or similar device?

[guitfnky]

ugh, Studio One is a damn pretty DAW. that’s one thing I’d love for Props to do with Reason—make the rack and mixer more visually appealing.

but that’s way less important than bringing it up to par with other DAWs, in terms of workflow and sequencing improvements (and scaling for higher PPI monitors).

[diminished]

Why can they have parallel MIDI FX and we only have Players that run in series? @02m38s

Parallel MIDI FX seems to make sense only to use the same MIDI data (clips) to be adjusted by said FX and played by different instruments. I think you can already achieve that using CV Player Tap or similar device?

Hmmm that'd be one usage, but I'm thinking more of: play an arpeggio in C1 and do chords in C3-5, then randomly alter notes according to the scale in these chords..

[diminished]

Why can they have parallel MIDI FX and we only have Players that run in series? @02m38s

S1 doesn't have parallel midi fx. You're looking at a multi-instrument. Basically the same thing you can do with a combinator in Reason.

I see - thanks for explaining. It sure looks like that, though.. and I wish it was a thing!

[antic604]

Hmmm that'd be one usage, but I'm thinking more of: play an arpeggio in C1 and do chords in C3-5, then randomly alter notes according to the scale in these chords..

So why would you need parallel MIDI FX for that? Just have the arpeggiator "listening" to the chords and generate arp notes accordingly?

[diminished]

Hmmm that'd be one usage, but I'm thinking more of: play an arpeggio in C1 and do chords in C3-5, then randomly alter notes according to the scale in these chords..

So why would you need parallel MIDI FX for that? Just have the arpeggiator "listening" to the chords and generate arp notes accordingly?

That would alter the incoming midi stream and play arp only.
I want independent, processable streams going to the same instrument.

[Luxuria]

I think they're serving very different audiences. Also, I don't these updates are as big as the seem. I watched the stream live earlier today and the new midi features put me to sleep while the audio additions (which are the majority of the new features) had me more excited. It's a hard comparison. Depends on your perception or needs. I just don't see Reason ever being a strong competitor for audio editing/engineering . It doesn't seem to fit with the design philosophy of Reason imo. Even back when Record was released, the tagline was that it was made for "musicians, not audio engineers" This particular update is huge for people from Pro Tools and Logic backgrounds but take that away and I don't think the average Reason user is missing out on much. I use them both and love them both for what they're best at.

I see what you mean. I started as an audio engineer and worked my way into becoming a musician by joining a choir group and learning the piano. So I am definitely pushing for more engineering tools similar to Pro Tools.

If Reason is claiming to be musician orientated then shouldn't we be seeing more native devices being upgraded? Last update I can recall is RV7000's mkii. Grain and Europa were the big 2 additions in reason 10. PHeads also released a lot of additions on the side like Complex, Quad and RDK/Reason Bass Guitar. I'm not saying all of these should have been free updates for 10, but there is definitely a lack of appreciation for old customers. Maybe the Clank and Pangea devices were supposed to be sold separate until someone said something. That would make sense since you need to download them outside from Reason. The balance between adding devices as stock and selling them separate is uneven in my opinion. Have you noticed that when they do add devices stock, like pulsar, synchronus, etc it's after they were being sold in the shop.

Then we have all this web orientated talk. Where does that play in all this? I get that its good for collaboration and trying to channel the ability to capture creative moments anywhere but come on... If I get an idea I either write it down or record it through a mic app. At the end if the day I need a workstation with my drum pad, midi keyboard, and mouse and keyboard to get the job done.

PHeads have always fought off the idea that Reason isn't a DAW, yet they drag their feet while having to turn it into one in order to stay a float. First it was audio recording, then it was VST implementation. Their niche is clear, a strong rack paradigm that makes sound design and creation fun. Besides that, there is no reason to think outside the box when it comes to sequencers and engineering tools. The SSL mixer they added is one hell of a great idea. Like some else said in another thread, why not expand on it or work with brainworkx to make it even better?

If we are comparing the Studio One update to any Reason update then it is as big as it seems.
And it's not even a paid update. The midi features in StudioOne are already more expansive than Reason's so even with the update not adding much it still does more.

Funny how the company that is most secrative with future releases is last in the race.

[guitfnky]

drag their feet? they’ve been making huge improvements aimed precisely toward reworking Reason as a DAW with every release since Reason+Record, including a number of free improvements in between the major (paid) version releases. version 6 (the paid update) was even a “pay what you want” upgrade. the expectation that they can just flip a switch and all of a sudden, Reason is a fully-fleshed out DAW comparable to others that have been on the market for years without going through an iterative process of gradual improvements is ludicrous.

Reason wasn’t built to be a DAW. turning it into one without throwing away all the stuff that made it stand out isn’t a simple, or quick process.

[chaosroyale]

If I had a more "software" oriented way of sound designing, I would instantly ditch Reason for another pro-spec DAW. Their editing features are way better than Reason. Personally I like hardware and cables, which is why I stick with Reason, because it has that Rack paradigm and some great built-in devices. 10 years ago there was no way to get this kind of experimental sound creation with another DAW.

BUT Here's the thing though, other DAWs are starting to get more and more flexible and "analog-like" with their routing, grouping, great built-in devices (including some with much better EQs, comps, limiters and other such "rack" equipment than Reason, how embarrassing!), while keeping their wide array of digital workflow tools.

On the other hand, Reason is failing to push its strongest features ahead. None of the signature units have been updated for 10 years or more. At this pace, Reasons "virtual rack" abilities will be matched or overtaken by other DAWs in a few years.

The workflow enhancements in10.2 were received extremely positively and showed that Reason CAN have modern workflow features and still feel like Reason. Likewise, Grain and Europa showed that, despite the horrible cheap sounding bad looking bloatware that was R10's suite of "content", Props can still design good attractive modern instruments.

I hope they can stop adding stuff that gives no benefit to the core DAW and nobody wants anyway, like allihoopa and bloatware REs, and get back to concentrating on the core features, both workflow and core devices.

Imagine if a version came out with NO new devices, but a clean 4k UI, refined editing options, and updates to native devices like Scream, Meq, Mcomp, Subtraktor, the SSL channel strips, the NN-XT. People would go nuts for it.

"Hey generic DAW, that para EQ is cute, but our DAWs default mixer has a choice of 2 different channel strips with authentic sounding vintage EQs, optional saturation, and double the original number of EQ bands just in case". That might bring back the wow factor that Reason used to have when I showed it to cubase users back in the day.

EDIT: I'm not saying "I know best, Props should do this". I have no idea what Prop's future plans are or what direction they want to go.
I am saying that as a long term Reason user who loves it for the powerful creative features, this is what I would want.

EDIT2: removed names of example DAWs because I'm making a general point.

[2chris]

I understand comparing Reason to S1, but did you listen to how bad the synth sounded in that clip? You're buying that DAW for a feature sheet. S1 will probably stay better for audio recording, they add features faster, and the UI looks cleaner. If they did an amazing crossgrade sale, I'd consider I guess. If you prefer that stuff, jump off the bandwagon. Where propellerheads shine is in how great the FX and instruments sound, and the software is very stable. I bought Complex1 and it's insane for $50 on sale, and so are the new additions included in 10. Complex and Grain are BRILLIANT! The stuff they put out is in the ballpark with what Native Instruments or U-He does, but they provide a whole DAW and a bunch of creative stuff with it. If you look at it like that, and you have a different environment that's nothing like most DAW's - you can enjoy it for what it is rather than what it isn't. I'm pretty happy with 10 or I wouldn't have come back to reason. No regrets based on what I have right now.

Right out of the box you can make a good song, and they have so much content and presets to learn from. Reason's biggest weaknesses are the UI being cluttered (unchanged for too long), slower development time than other DAW's, the sequencer needing way more features, and it's pretty far behind in automation/organization/clip launching. My favorite DAW is Ableton Live, but I paid twice as much for it, and for $300 Reason is easily worth it if you love making music. Propellerheads need to prioritize the DAW features at some point or they are going to lose existing customers and/or new customers. With Cubase doing the sale, I'm actually tempted to jump on that and sit the next Reason version out unless they substantially update the sequencer (criminally neglected besides the ghost notes addition in 10.2!), add more midi tools, and work on overall organization that saves time and clicks. The organization and UI are why I prefer Live. Reason can be more fun and better for sound design, but when I need to be productive it's not my choice.

What gives me hope is that they did a whole re-write to the audio engine to give us the #1 thing we all wanted - better performance. I think they spent so much time and energy on that, it's the reason we don't hear much on 11 or a possible 10.5 or something. I hate to say it, but be patient because they are moving in the right direction as long as they don't focus on dumb iOS development stuff like I'm afraid they will by bringing in a VC and making an app developer their CEO. Reason doesn't have a defined audience to the point other DAWs do (Ableton = EDM, PT = live audio, etc) where they have to balance what they want to work on.

[Luxuria]

drag their feet? they’ve been making huge improvements aimed precisely toward reworking Reason as a DAW with every release since Reason+Record, including a number of free improvements in between the major (paid) version releases. version 6 (the paid update) was even a “pay what you want” upgrade. the expectation that they can just flip a switch and all of a sudden, Reason is a fully-fleshed out DAW comparable to others that have been on the market for years without going through an iterative process of gradual improvements is ludicrous.

Reason wasn’t built to be a DAW. turning it into one without throwing away all the stuff that made it stand out isn’t a simple, or quick process.

Reason 1 came out in 2001, version 6 in 2011. Presonus's Studio One version 1 came out in 2009. They added multi track MIDI editing in version 2 in 2011. Still wouldn't call what reason has multi track.

Both audio recording and VST implementation weren't added without a fight. A magazine once interviewed someone from PHeads and asked about audio recording in which they said it would never happen later to have to give in to popular demand and add it in. Same with VST's. They said they wouldn't do it because it's an unstable platform only to add it in. That's where my "dragging their feet" comment is referring to.

FL studio has free lifetime updates, Reaper 5 comes with free updates up to version 6.99 with plenty of point updates to be content. I'm not sure what that one pay what you want update you mention serves to do? Every company uses different ways to make their product stand out. PHeads methods have always reminded me of Apple's tactics of clearing avoiding what the competition is doing and patting themselves on the back when they do something minor. Reason 10 being "the biggest update" ever is one example of similar marketing to Apple's.

In my case, I support the product, even though it doesn't show it much when I post here. I do not support the company and it's relationship with it's customers who would like to see it improve. The forums they shut down were a great resource to see what people wanted yet they cut off communication. Here on the feature requests page, the thread with the poll for most requested features for reason 11 got some good feedback from us. Not once did anyone from PHeads say "thanks for the help, we're working on some of these."

There is gradual improvements to workflow yes but most seem to be half baked even with the amount of time they take. They release more synths then they do workflow improvements. How is that making the DAW itself better?