Good video, some interesting points

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Loque
Posts: 5644
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 16 May 2019

mcatalao wrote:
16 May 2019
Loque wrote:
10 May 2019
Argument #6: Versioning...
Agree, that this could be supported somehow, but the traps are big. The best thing IS to keep all things tight together including all samples. I had it happen in the past, that i accidently changed a sample, and my "versions" were crap. This can also happen in the same song and i destroyed cool patches that way which are already finished in the same song...Dunno how other DAWs handle this without falling into traps. "Freezing" would be a good help here i guess...

(...)

So the final comment is, "if you want to be pro, you must not use Reason and if you want to get a song finished, you must not use Reason either". So all of you know it now: You will become a pro and get sour songs finished, if you use other DAWs...

Really, this guy is a
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You know i think it was SELIG that proposed an internal versioning system sometime ago. You wouldn't even need to separate audio and other data, just have all the metadata separated from audio, and save different versions of that metadata. If you needed to get the status of the project at a given date, you would get the metadata for that date and it would load that slice of the metadata and the project would appear as it was at that date. A new modification to that state would generate a new version based on that previous version. You could even create branching to be able to create different mix states for the song.

If you think of it a reason file is separated in different parts, and different kinds of edits are possible. A parameter edit doesn't kill a lot of space, and can be easily versioned and managed in an internal XML or Json structure (i work with a Data app that does that, object settings are stored in that XML structure and the data is on the side). My take is that Reason already does that, separating the Audio information from the sequencer tracks, song samples and so on from the parameters of the devices, sequencer data, automation, etc. Re patches are already XML structures, that are copied into the project.
Instead of creating an own version system, which obviously will leaad into a mess of unpredtictable traps and code, it would be enough to have a "freeze" option or a possibility to export all files separated and be able to re-import this. This way you can choose any versioning system you like and already have all branching, merging and stuff like that.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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MikeMcKew
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Location: Leesburg, VA

Post 16 May 2019

I haven't watched the video, so I can't comment on specific points he made. Regarding versioning, however, it is an extremely useful and powerful tool that Reason really needs (among others).

Look no further than some other mainstream DAWs to see how useful this can be. Studio One has the feature baked in, so you can embed different versions into the same song file and restore them at any time. Reaper has a shortcut to save a new version, and it simply creates a copy of the project file with an incremented name in the project folder (note - folder). In other DAWs, such as Pro Tools, you simply "Save as" to save a new version of the project file, leaving the old one intact, which accomplishes the same thing.

Note that as far as I can tell (still learning ropes), FL Studio works in a very similar manner to Reason, except it does have a "Save new version" option that simply increments the project file name. The thing about FL Studio is that it is about the last place I'd go to work with audio, which is where this feature most comes in handy (in my opinion). Audio is where file sizes start getting unwieldy, and creating a new version that is simply a copy of the last version unnecessarily duplicates audio information. I'd like to see this changed in FL as well as any other DAW that handles things this way. At this moment I'm not aware of any besides Reason and FL.

Closely connected with versioning is backups - you could say they're basically the same thing, only backups happen automatically while versioning is usually done intentionally by the user at crucial points. So, in my view, anyone who doesn't want versioning also doesn't want backups.

To make all this work, there needs to be a project directory where everything is stored. Creating a new project? The project file gets put into a directory with that name, with an Audio folder, a Backups folder, a Peaks folder (this can go in the audio folder). You could put a Versions folder there, depending on how PH decide to implement it. Why stop there? If needed, you can create a path for exported MIDI, stems, bounced mixdowns... etc. This type of organization is extremely useful, and I've missed it in Reason from the beginning. I've been doing things this way in other DAWs for 10+ years.

I love Reason for what it is, but that doesn't mean we can't look to other DAWs to make things even better. Too often I hear things like "that's impossible" or "that could never work" when the same thing has been done right across the street for years.
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mcatalao
Posts: 990
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 16 May 2019

Loque wrote:
16 May 2019

Instead of creating an own version system, which obviously will leaad into a mess of unpredtictable traps and code, it would be enough to have a "freeze" option or a possibility to export all files separated and be able to re-import this. This way you can choose any versioning system you like and already have all branching, merging and stuff like that.
That's developer talk!!! :)

TBH (and i'm a developer too) external versioning solutions are very important when you have multiple developer teams. Not so much when you're a single guy making music.

Self managed versioning systems ( i think cubase has this kind of versioning), are way easier to use. Since this software is for musicians and audio engineers and in a great part hobbyists that do not work in long hugely cpmplex projects with multiple developer teams i think that would be killing a fly with a nuclear bomb, and have a very high probability of missing it!

Not to say that you'd have to configure an external application like SVG or TFS or GIT, and all these rely on a distributed approach that implied braking the .reason project and they are not easy to configure...

fullforce
Posts: 159
Joined: 18 Aug 2018

Post 16 May 2019

There's a lot of things in Reason that can be improved, but this video is ridiculous.
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Jmax
Posts: 584
Joined: 03 Apr 2015

Post 16 May 2019

I don't buy the bulk of the arguments. How many of all his tracks did he produce in Reason? Let's take away Reason all together and have him produce them all again, how long would it take?
Sure, it is true Reason is missing some key workflow features and sequencer features.
BUT, how quick is it to make a nice track in Reason? Super fast. You see, Reason is totally visual thus making it easier to drag and drop, arrange sounds.
I really do believe that having knobs to twist and a virtual rack makes things a whole lot faster.
I also have Ableton and Studio One. Finding a reverb in Studio One takes just as long as Reason. Want to automate things in Studio One? well there's no right click to automate the parameter, it's a longer process.
I would actually say, Reason is among the quickest DAWS to process good music in.

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Loque
Posts: 5644
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 16 May 2019

mcatalao wrote:
16 May 2019
Loque wrote:
16 May 2019

Instead of creating an own version system, which obviously will leaad into a mess of unpredtictable traps and code, it would be enough to have a "freeze" option or a possibility to export all files separated and be able to re-import this. This way you can choose any versioning system you like and already have all branching, merging and stuff like that.
That's developer talk!!! :)

TBH (and i'm a developer too) external versioning solutions are very important when you have multiple developer teams. Not so much when you're a single guy making music.

Self managed versioning systems ( i think cubase has this kind of versioning), are way easier to use. Since this software is for musicians and audio engineers and in a great part hobbyists that do not work in long hugely cpmplex projects with multiple developer teams i think that would be killing a fly with a nuclear bomb, and have a very high probability of missing it!

Not to say that you'd have to configure an external application like SVG or TFS or GIT, and all these rely on a distributed approach that implied braking the .reason project and they are not easy to configure...
Just imagine the next step...You want to cooperate with others worldwide...Just checkin/checkout in GITHub and you can do this - just merging is the problem. I dont think it would make sense for PH to implement a GITHub system. Even Microsofot understood that they are too stupid to write a good versioning system and bought GITHub.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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