What is Reason?

[antic604]

Slightly dissapointed about tge lack of love for Mixer, but it's a step in right direction!

Forward the video to your friends & family

[boingy]

Aw. I thought you were asking us.
My answer was going to be "a top- notch synth and effects rack attached to a second-rate DAW"

[GRIFTY]

is it just me, or is it about &$^#%&ing time Propellerhead hired some friggin Android developers??

[antic604]

is it just me, or is it about &$^#%&ing time Propellerhead hired some friggin Android developers??

If you asked me, then it's about time for them to fire the iOS ones and hire Windows/MacOS ones instead to bring up the *actual* Reason up to speed. It's an awesome DAW, but lots of new people who started producing in last 5 years simply won't accept some of the archaic aspects of the GUI and sequencer in particular AND will be alienated by the concept of Rack. iOS/Android apps can be a good, complementary business model but the real money (and users) are in the core software.

[boingy]

is it just me, or is it about &$^#%&ing time Propellerhead hired some friggin Android developers??

If you asked me, then it's about time for them to fire the iOS ones and hire Windows/MacOS ones instead to bring up the *actual* Reason up to speed. It's an awesome DAW, but lots of new people who started producing in last 5 years simply won't accept some of the archaic aspects of the GUI and sequencer in particular AND will be alienated by the concept of Rack. iOS/Android apps can be a good, complementary business model but the real money (and users) are in the core software.

Android is not an audio-friendly OS so getting sensible performance out of it is a real chore.

Based on the (impressive) web-based version of the Europa synth I'm a bit scared that Reason 11 will be an entirely web-based affair.

[Noplan]

Forward the video to your friends & family

No way. I'm also glad that they do not constantly show videos of their silly hobbies. luckily my father stopped talking to me about football.

[EnochLight]

AND will be alienated by the concept of Rack.

Well, since the rack is a critical part of the Reason paradigm, then there's really no way to address that without becoming like every other DAW. I feel you on the graphics/GUI/UX though (4K/high dpi please)!

Cool video - it's nice to see some new buzz about Reason. Always enjoy Ryan's videos, and I've grown used to Tiger doing the voiceover.

[ScuzzyEye]

Android is not an audio-friendly OS so getting sensible performance out of it is a real chore.

How did you test this? Or are you repeating something you heard about Android 3? Android's round-trip audio latency is now better than 20 ms. So it's fine for monitoring while recording. But that's hardly what a DAW is used for anyway. Most of the work is sequencing and playback, which has no real latency requirements at all.

Android is fine. Just no one really wants to use a DAW on their phone. Google is down-playing Android on tablets at this point, and focusing their efforts on Chrome OS. So maybe the web-DAW isn't a bad idea.

[EnochLight]

Android is not an audio-friendly OS so getting sensible performance out of it is a real chore.

How did you test this? Or are you repeating something you heard about Android 3? Android's round-trip audio latency is now better than 20 ms. So it's fine for monitoring while recording. But that's hardly what a DAW is used for anyway. Most of the work is sequencing and playback, which has no real latency requirements at all.

Android is fine. Just no one really wants to use a DAW on their phone. Google is down-playing Android on tablets at this point, and focusing their efforts on Chrome OS. So maybe the web-DAW isn't a bad idea.

To be fair, latency very much does affect the experience in this case. I know on the iPhone at least, when I choose 128 samples in Korg Gadget, the resulting lower latency is almost hardware-like when I use MIDI controllers or the touch screen. If I increase the sample buffer to 2048, the increased latency is noticeable even on the touch screen when playing back percussive stuff. Trying the stay in sync with the sequencer when recording is almost impossible. And using a MIDI controller only makes it worse (especially over Bluetooth, which has its own latency issues).

20ms round trip latency isn't terrible I suppose, but I wonder what that would translate to when performing live or recording to a sequencer via a touchscreen or MIDI controller?

[Loque]

The video shows a vision. I like it.

[ScuzzyEye]

To be fair, latency very much does affect the experience in this case. I know on the iPhone at least, when I choose 128 samples in Korg Gadget, the resulting lower latency is almost hardware-like when I use MIDI controllers or the touch screen. If I increase the sample buffer to 2048, the increased latency is noticeable even on the touch screen when playing back percussive stuff. Trying the stay in sync with the sequencer when recording is almost impossible. And using a MIDI controller only makes it worse (especially over Bluetooth, which has its own latency issues).

20ms round trip latency isn't terrible I suppose, but I wonder what that would translate to when performing live or recording to a sequencer via a touchscreen or MIDI controller?

Touch to audio output is around 9 to 12 ms depending on the device. I've been meaning to test the USB and Bluetooth MIDI latency, but haven't gotten around to it. Android devices can actually show up as MIDI controllers when plugged into a computer, if an app activates that mode. That's what TouchDAW does.

[modecca]

very informative video i didnt know about any of these insights

[EnochLight]

Touch to audio output is around 9 to 12 ms depending on the device.

I know this is part of the issue. Android has literally dozens upon dozens of different hardware configurations to run on, so I'm curious if the performance you're reporting is the same for all devices?

With iOS, despite the device, latency performance is usually pretty much spot on across all hardware. It's just the CPU and RAM that ends up limiting how much you can have of a particular device running, etc (such as how many gadgets you can run in Korg Gadget, etc)...

[ScuzzyEye]

I know this is part of the issue. Android has literally dozens upon dozens of different hardware configurations to run on, so I'm curious if the performance you're reporting is the same for all devices?

Different touch encoders have their own latencies. Any recent device from Samsung, LG, and Google will have excellent latency from the touch to the OS. $50 Chinese phones, not always so much. But you can tell that pretty easily when dragging to scroll up and down. On my Pixel 2, which has almost no touch latency, it feels like what ever you're scrolling is locked to your finger. Those cheap phones it feels like the screen is attached by a rubber band.

[boingy]

Android is not an audio-friendly OS so getting sensible performance out of it is a real chore.

How did you test this?

Because I've developed audio apps for iOS and Android. It's not the latency that's the issue. It's the consistency of the delays. Sometimes the OS does other stuff and interrupts the audio stream. The very latest flavours of Android have made big leaps forward but they are far from perfect and you can't develop an Android app that just targets the very latest flavour of Android because you limit your market. iOS on the other hand, in common with almost all Apple platforms, is very stable and predictable for audio and other real-time stuff. It's no coincidence that the coolest audio apps are only on iOS.

As a programming environment I much prefer Android-land but it is very far behind Apple in a few areas.

[antic604]

AND will be alienated by the concept of Rack.

Well, since the rack is a critical part of the Reason paradigm, then there's really no way to address that without becoming like every other DAW. I feel you on the graphics/GUI/UX though (4K/high dpi please)!

Beats me if I know the solution!

But maybe there's some way to retain the rack view, but somehow make it more accessible to people accustomed to pop-out VSTs represented in a rack by more anonymous boxes? I personally wouldn't like that, but I'm not 20-something. But I'm also thinking about regular usability things, e.g. if I have say 5-column rack I'll go out of my way to drag cable from one end to the other because it scrolls soooooo sloooooowwwwww... Or how all 3 areas are on top of each other on a laptop screen, which means that with just few tracks you massively waste spece, whereas you could see much more stacking rack & mixer next to each other (with sequencer below, full-width like it is now). Or all the wasted space for the dividers, decorative elements, etc. Or how you still can't double-click on sequencer's header and be sent to relevant mixer channel. Simple things, really.

[guitfnky]

I don’t get why anyone would be put off by using the rack. you can just add everything in series if you want, and shift-drag stuff around if you want to easily reorder things. you don’t need to flip the rack most of the time for that.

sure, there’s a learning period where you might have to adapt to it being different than other DAWs, but that doesn’t take long. the beauty of the rack is that it’s as simple, or as complex as you want it to be.

[antic604]

I don’t get why anyone would be put off by using the rack. you can just add everything in series if you want, and shift-drag stuff around if you want to easily reorder things. you don’t need to flip the rack most of the time for that.

sure, there’s a learning period where you might have to adapt to it being different than other DAWs, but that doesn’t take long. the beauty of the rack is that it’s as simple, or as complex as you want it to be.

Well, YOU don't know because YOU've been using it for years, I assume. But whenever I post something from Reason on a non-Reason forum/group, especially with a video, then I typically get comments like "it looks scary", "it looks confusing" or "how can you do anything there" and I can believe it is for a 20-something who never had to wire hardware devices. Most people don't get signal flow in their DAWs, let alone would want to control it.

So perhaps there should be some "easy" mode, with lots of things abstracted and "advanced" one that we have now? I've no clue, just thinking out loud

[diminished]

It's good (and I believe crucial) for the long term life of our beloved DAW that they release a video like that to target the next generation of musicians (=customers). Who are they? If you read on subreddits like r/edmproduction, it seems like all the kids want to know is how to sidechain, create chord progressions and make a supersaw synth in their cracked copy of Serum. This video and the last tutorial by Ryan address these topics and a broader userbase is the goal. Fair enough!

But there is a catch, and it's a huge one: they (tm) use cracked or free DAWs such as Reaper. They won't spend a single penny until they are old enough to value their hobby. If PH are serious about a new generation of musicians learning to love Reason, they need to release a free entry product (Reason Lite).

Just my 2 cents.

[EnochLight]

I don’t get why anyone would be put off by using the rack. you can just add everything in series if you want, and shift-drag stuff around if you want to easily reorder things. you don’t need to flip the rack most of the time for that.

sure, there’s a learning period where you might have to adapt to it being different than other DAWs, but that doesn’t take long. the beauty of the rack is that it’s as simple, or as complex as you want it to be.

Well, YOU don't know because YOU've been using it for years, I assume. But whenever I post something from Reason on a non-Reason forum/group, especially with a video, then I typically get comments like "it looks scary", "it looks confusing" or "how can you do anything there" and I can believe it is for a 20-something who never had to wire hardware devices. Most people don't get signal flow in their DAWs, let alone would want to control it.

So perhaps there should be some "easy" mode, with lots of things abstracted and "advanced" one that we have now? I've no clue, just thinking out loud

The bizarre thing is, if the resurgence of hardware popularity and the modular world is anything to go by, IRL hardware isn't going anywhere anytime soon, and Reason is literally the only DAW on the market that can prepare said 20-somethings for operating IRL, especially in a studio environment where racks are commonplace. Hell, even many hobbyist/enthusiasts out there have racks of hardware in their home studios.

So while I get how said 20-somethings find Reason daunting (which is almost laughable to a person of my age), it almost seems like the best option if they ever want to handle real gear. My 11 year old uses Reason, and she seems to have grasped it pretty well without much fuss, but I did spend a hot minute showing her the back of an actual piece of hardware and where the inputs/outputs are.

[esselfortium]

I was 14 when I started using Reason, and I know I wasn't alone in that. I would say it's become more accessible since then. It's just a matter of getting it to people.

[antic604]

Perhaps you're both right and it's just a matter of getting people smoothly through that initial "shock"

[antic604]

Oh, I see they've also revamped the website - very nice now!

https://www.propellerheads.com/en/reason

[Baylo]

My 11 year old uses Reason, and she seems to have grasped it pretty well without much fuss, but I did spend a hot minute showing her the back of an actual piece of hardware and where the inputs/outputs are.

Ditto with my 14 year old. And now he regularly records his middle school bandmates using my old Spirit F1 mixer and Delta 44 for guitars and bass, and midi for his Alesis drumkit. As soon as you have to use hardware, Reason makes sense. But I appreciate there's a ton of kids out there who haven't had that pleasure.

[boingy]

To be fair you can do a whole load of stuff in Reason without ever looking at the back of the rack or doing anything with CV.