What dB levels? (Struggling with some mixes)

[rgdaniel]

I'm working on Reason remixes of my album (released 2010 but originally produced in 1996-ish with Opcode Vision). I seem to remember the original project 20+ years ago being not a huge struggle to get a coherent decent-sounding mix, despite the fact that it was all outboard midi sound sources (Boss DS-330 and Roland TD-7, final mixes recorded onto cassette), and despite me not really knowing what I was doing and kind of flying blind (pre-YouTube). Seemed like everything just kind of worked well together, sound-wise, maybe because the instruments were all coming from the same two multitimbral devices, with sounds designed to work well together?

Anywho, not so easy these days, even having banked tons of time on Reason since v2.5, off and on. Getting better, but still have to tear down a mix and start over, as often as not. Which I'm about to do. Again.

So my specific question: What target dB levels do you guys shoot for, per channel, when starting a mix... and/or what dB level do you master to? I've been aiming for around 0dB per channel, allowing some to go over a little if needed (per Ryan's video about Levels and Clipping and not sweating it). I leave my master Gain well below zero so as not to clip in the early going, and just turn up the PC volume. Then as I'm ready to do a final "mastering" pass, I set the master gain back up to zero and use Kratos 2 Maximizer in the mastering chain starting at "3dB Adaptive" setting, 2 to 5 dB on Maximizer knob, and limited to -5 dB ceiling.

Results are hit or miss, and problems may have root causes back in the mixing phase, but do these numbers sound reasonable in a general way? (Genre is kind of prog-rocky stuff, lots of dynamic range and busy drumming, if that's a factor.) All tips on this, and mixing in general, will be absorbed and considered. Thanks!

[antic604]

I try to keep my loudest sounds - kick & bass - around -12dB and then mix everying around that.

But really...

[retreed]

I found this to be helpful (even though selig tricks us with audio still playing while bars are not moving anymore in the last minute of the video):

[rgdaniel]

Thanks, yup, that's the video I was referring to in my post. And -12 dB (Peak mode, I'm guessing?) sounds way lower than I've been doing, so maybe I should dial it back...

Let me ask also about Peak vs VU meter modes. I've been using Peak in the Big Mixer (also per the video), and on the SSL main meter, but the channel meters are all VU (I think?) by default, so I park a Selig Gain in every Mix channel at the end of the chain (often just an EQ and maybe compressor and limiter). Should I literally ignore VU readings everywhere and pay attention only to Peak? Despite the video, if I see red in the channel strip meter, my instincts are to dial it down. It's Pavlovian!

I try to keep my loudest sounds - kick & bass - around -12dB and then mix everying around that.

But really...

[rgdaniel]

Oh thanks. Yeah, I knew there was another video I wanted to watch again, and here it is! Cheers.

I found this to be helpful (even though selig tricks us with audio still playing while bars are not moving anymore in the last minute of the video):

[antic604]

Should I literally ignore VU readings everywhere and pay attention only to Peak? Despite the video, if I see red in the channel strip meter, my instincts are to dial it down. It's Pavlovian!

I don't think you shouldn't pay attention to them, but - as Ryan says in the video - you shouldn't sweat it (not be worry about them too much). In general, if they're all in green you should have ample room on the master. If some of them go red occasionally you should also be fine since 0VU = -12dB Peak.

[selig]

As for seeing “red”, you can always turn off the red part of the meters using VU Offset on the big meter - Just crank it all the way up!


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[selig]

Should I literally ignore VU readings everywhere and pay attention only to Peak? Despite the video, if I see red in the channel strip meter, my instincts are to dial it down. It's Pavlovian!

I don't think you shouldn't pay attention to them, but - as Ryan says in the video - you shouldn't sweat it (not be worry about them too much). In general, if they're all in green you should have ample room on the master. If some of them go red occasionally you should also be fine since 0VU = -12dB Peak.

0 VU = -12 dB VU, not peak (channel meters).

Peak levels can be as much as 20 dB or more than VU levels, so even with a VU level of -12 dB you can be clipping big time.


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[rgdaniel]

As for seeing “red”, you can always turn off the red part of the meters using VU Offset on the big meter - Just crank it all the way up!

Awesome... This tip makes me giddily happy, for reasons I can only attribute to my OCD...

[antic604]

As for seeing “red”, you can always turn off the red part of the meters using VU Offset on the big meter - Just crank it all the way up!

Awesome... This tip makes me giddily happy, for reasons I can only attribute to my OCD...

So you're saying your mixes were not sounding worse in reality, but you thought so because of your OCD?

Sometimes I really miss the old, simpler times when I had no clue what I was doing and what most of the stuff means - I just had fun, trying to do something that sounded good and right (to my ears)

[selig]

Sometimes I really miss the old, simpler times when I had no clue what I was doing and what most of the stuff means - I just had fun, trying to do something that sounded good and right (to my ears)

^^^THIS^^^
I can totally relate to this! I’ve even heard of old school producers covering the VU meters on the console so the engineer was forced to user their ears!

These days most folks seem to believe they NEED to see things in order to make things sound good.

Yes, I know how important visual tools can be, but I ALSO know how misleading they can be. Humans tend to trust their eyes over their ears (‘seeing is believing’), because the visual sense is stronger than the the audible sense.

So if you’re aware of the pitfalls of using visual aids, you can get good results from them. But IMO you also have to be aware of how they can mislead you. Every engineer I know (at every level) can describe the experience of adjusting a control for a while before realizing it’s bypassed, which happens because they’re looking at the control and not listening.



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[rgdaniel]

Awesome... This tip makes me giddily happy, for reasons I can only attribute to my OCD...

So you're saying your mixes were not sounding worse in reality, but you thought so because of your OCD?

LOL, not exactly... Offsetting the meters makes me happy going forward, but the mixes still need work...

Sometimes I really miss the old, simpler times when I had no clue what I was doing and what most of the stuff means - I just had fun, trying to do something that sounded good and right (to my ears)

Same here... I'm struggling to make this material sound as good as it did in 1996, when I never even heard of a compressor... "The more you know, the more you know you don't know what you know"

I just finished a second pass through the 10 songs, applying some stuff from above (particularly starting with every mix channel at -12 dB or so) and I thought I was done till I burned it to CD and listened on the decent stereo... Gonna need a third pass, but it's getting closer... I'm gonna need to take copious notes while listening on the stereo ("drums come in too hot at 2:12", "gtr too shrill at 3:30, cut some highs" etc.) and maybe third time will be the charm...