What is the lack of REASON?

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
chaosroyale
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Post 21 Feb 2019

FL Studio producer edition and VPS Avenger together, costs the same as Reason10.

*I love the Reason Rack but anyone who has used Avenger knows that it is an absolute beast. FL is for filthy casuals tho.
Loque wrote:
20 Feb 2019
While reading that ppl want uber synths in Reason as stock devices and compare them with Serum, Avanger, Omnisphere... Don't forget, that each of those synths costs like the whole Reason package.

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bitley
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Post 21 Feb 2019

It's not cutting edge?

It allows you and me to be cutting edge, which is what it's all about.

Ermitage
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Post 21 Feb 2019

We need more PH-branded REs that cost 99€. After all, Verdane's bottom line is more important than my workflow.

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bitley
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Post 21 Feb 2019

I would say please don't change Subtractor, ever.

scratchnsnifff
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Post 21 Feb 2019

bitley wrote:
20 Feb 2019
In perspective the Roland Jupiter 8 hasn't changed since 1980 and it's more sought after than ever now. So perhaps the real problem is that software users want something "new" all the time. Has music become better? I still love "Love Action". Can Thor do those sounds? Yes. In other words it is perfect. You have access to a monster of a synth, use it.
Hardware is definitely different. And for example the novation peak had its anniversary last year and they added 30-60 new wave tables. Small things can be added to modernize a piece of software without losing its initial vision :)

That one post makes a great point. Even NI massive is getting an entire re do

It’s just weird that there is so much opportunity for creative additions (thinking of Thor for this one) but none have been taken. At least they could add some new tables. Iv always wanted the malström oscillator in Thor but since grain, the grain oscillator makes more sense

I just hope on some day that we see Thor get some modernization. I don’t see what’s so wrong with little additions like a new oscillator or filter here and there
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

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bitley
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Post 21 Feb 2019

I assume it would take hundreds of hours to do something like that because it's much much harder than one might think. It has to be 100% backwards compatible. I am sure they rather use that time and effort to create new stuff. Which as well is just about exactly what Roland always has said to people wanting them to recreate or slightly modernize the JP8. I browsed JP8s on Ebay after having written that last comment as well, and it seems they're selling for $12,000 now, and I was shocked to see it going over $5000. I could have saved up and bought one for $1500 fifteen years ago but I wouldn't dare to pay so much for a vintage analog machine. :lol: As for updated software synths I always thought FM7 got lost in translation when FM8 came out. As for hardware synths I've never understood why Roland updated the U-20 and called it D-70, we rushed to the store thinking it was the new larger D-50 but hell no, completely different instrument. Not exactly bad, but not a worthy successor by any means whatsoever.

chaosroyale
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Post 21 Feb 2019

We were talking about DAWs, not the same thing at all as vintage hardware.

If Reason wants to be competitive with Abelton/Bitwig/Logic/etc then it simply has to keep up or gradually lose market share and go out of business.

There are people who might need video for film scoring, or extensive CV for generative music, or notation for hybrid orchestral soundtracks, or live triggers for live performance, or advanced audio editing, or a fast and slick MIDI flow. All the aforementioned DAWs are good at one or more of those things. Reason is, currently, great at routing, good at CV (but no longer the undisputed champion due to VST) and extremely lacking in everything else.

I don't need Reason to do absolutely everything, for example notation is not really appropriate to the Reason "feel". I would like it to be really good at a few things though.

Instruments that don't audibly step through the positions on filters and pitch bends- yeah I think it's about time we had that for a "virtual synth" type of program.
bitley wrote:
21 Feb 2019
stuff about the 80's
Last edited by chaosroyale on 21 Feb 2019, edited 5 times in total.

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MrBlue
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Post 21 Feb 2019

scratchnsnifff wrote:
19 Feb 2019
... Same with Thor. They make a semi modular workhorse. With 5 types of oscillators. Yet as time goes on they have left Thor as is. When they could revitalize Thor with a new oscillator type or filter type every now and again. A semi modular synth could be a developers playground to see what works with fans. Yet they seem to go one and done...
Very just, There is plenty to do...

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bitley
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Post 21 Feb 2019

I didn't write just that little and being an ex Propellerhead staff member as well, I think you guys perhaps should hear me a little better because I know their mentality as a company - and they think very deeply about things before commiting changes. However I am in no way at all a spokesperson for them today of course. But it took me a little while to get into "the Propellerhead way" of doing things, so if that can bring a little light upon heated discussions why not. The difference between hardware and software isn't necessarily so huge as some might think either. Those guys designed hardware instruments and effects long before becoming makers of music software. It's clearly a passion.

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lecafard
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Post 21 Feb 2019

I agree 100% for what Bitley says, I love the way Propellerhead stays in the industry and I enjoy every day that passion they have to work.

scratchnsnifff
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Post 21 Feb 2019

bitley wrote:
21 Feb 2019
I didn't write just that little and being an ex Propellerhead staff member as well, I think you guys perhaps should hear me a little better because I know their mentality as a company - and they think very deeply about things before commiting changes. However I am in no way at all a spokesperson for them today of course. But it took me a little while to get into "the Propellerhead way" of doing things, so if that can bring a little light upon heated discussions why not. The difference between hardware and software isn't necessarily so huge as some might think either. Those guys designed hardware instruments and effects long before becoming makers of music software. It's clearly a passion.
I definitely see how passionate they are, Europa and grain are two almost perfect instruments for reason! I just don’t get the idea of making something and leaving it after it’s release, sure there are new ideas and projects it’s just that they come soooooooo close to absolute perfection with some of their synths (Europa in particular)
I don’t mean at all to sound negative, I just would like for the PH team put out even better products. So they can be a strong competitor against a world of ableton, logic and FL

And like Iv stated before. To their credit the past two years they have improved tremendously when it comes to how finished their products are. Sure vst could use improvements but I think we all knew that would happen with such a big change. Maybe they should just make a Thor 2.0 as a seperate product, with user tables and all of the other modern features (my favorite idea for Thor is the release of its own tiny sdk, and users would just purchase updates through the shop allowing developers to create additional features for the oscillators and filters)

But anyways, their current track record is pretty spot on. And I do see them at the very least creating a new combinator or adding to that. What ever their decision I am a supporter
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

scratchnsnifff
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Post 21 Feb 2019

bitley wrote:
21 Feb 2019
I assume it would take hundreds of hours to do something like that because it's much much harder than one might think. It has to be 100% backwards compatible. I am sure they rather use that time and effort to create new stuff. Which as well is just about exactly what Roland always has said to people wanting them to recreate or slightly modernize the JP8. I browsed JP8s on Ebay after having written that last comment as well, and it seems they're selling for $12,000 now, and I was shocked to see it going over $5000. I could have saved up and bought one for $1500 fifteen years ago but I wouldn't dare to pay so much for a vintage analog machine. :lol: As for updated software synths I always thought FM7 got lost in translation when FM8 came out. As for hardware synths I've never understood why Roland updated the U-20 and called it D-70, we rushed to the store thinking it was the new larger D-50 but hell no, completely different instrument. Not exactly bad, but not a worthy successor by any means whatsoever.
You are a absolutely right when it comes to the fact that some synths can get lost in translation. However adding a mini partial oscillator, granular oscillator, or user table oscillator with a warp mode doesn’t seem that far off from what it currently does. I can see Thor breaking if they went all out with visual envelopes, 3D wave tables or a new way of routing the audio. But adding a new type of filter?

Or even adding a suite of small effects might potentially break it, but having a couple of extra oscillator types seems like it would be very hard to break backwards compatibility. Idk I find that point hard to grasp. Perhaps I’m making it sound like I want them to change the synth dramatically. To be clear all Iv hoped for is user tables or grain tables and some more creative filters like a phaser filter or band reject filter (not like the SVF botch) as seen from massive, serum or the air raid audio filters
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scratchnsnifff
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Post 21 Feb 2019

chaosroyale wrote:
20 Feb 2019
Reason doesn't need to be more like Ableton. One is a Jig Saw, one is a Circular Saw, they both cut things but they are for different jobs. An Ableton style session view would actually make Reason worse, just like a Reason Rack would make Ableton worse.

What *IS* lacking in Reason, are things that are fully within its intended scope, but simply have not been implemented despite years and years of requests. When VST arrived you remember the headline? "Hell Freezes Over" - that gives you an idea how far behind Reason is seen as being.

Plenty of things in editing/workflow/GUI/features of rack devices are now clearly behind the times and showing no signs of ever being refined.

Let's take an example of something that made Reason great; CV.

After 15 years of being more or less the only "virtual modular" machine, now there are lots of VST modular machines. For Reason to be cutting-edge again *at the thing it is supposed to be best at* it would need audio rate CV as standard. While doing it, why not update the old devices to have smaller steps for things like filters and pitch, instead of the steppy modulation from 18 (!) years ago. Now, maybe CV is no longer the priority of Reason, and that could be fine, but if so, what is the new focus? How will it be cutting edge? Or is it just gonna play catch-up with FL studio?

Obsession with backwards compatibility isn't such a good thing. Soon it will be 2020, those .rns files from nearly 2 decades ago can be left in the past.
True, I never really care about old songs after I finish them. But Iv had it explained along the lines of......
It would make buying certain refills in the shop incompatible or something.

I love sound design so I’m not all that into using presets anymore, il get one or two if they are cheap. And it would kind of suck to see a combinator update and then none of your saved template combinators or refills work.

But I’m always willing to recreate templates if it means progression
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

chaosroyale
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Post 21 Feb 2019

I've heard that too, but I never bought that argument about refills. In any technology there has to be a point where you cut off the old wood. Retarding the development of a tool because of an obsession with a few 20 year old sound sets is really not healthy.

If someone wants a really old refill more than advanced editing, GUI, or high definition modulation, they are free to keep using the old version of Reason. I would rather throw it out with the VHS tapes and Minidiscs, and move on.

It seems like Props are very serious about things like their file formats and their SDK, so I would guess the update from .rns to .reason included some future-proofing. I doubt all the 3 or 4 year old refills will suddenly become completely unusable. Even if they do, I would choose hi-res GUI, expanded combinator, better sampler, smoother steps in values, etc, in a heartbeat.
scratchnsnifff wrote:
21 Feb 2019
True, I never really care about old songs after I finish them. But Iv had it explained along the lines of......
It would make buying certain refills in the shop incompatible or something.

scratchnsnifff
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Post 21 Feb 2019

chaosroyale wrote:
21 Feb 2019
I've heard that too, but I never bought that argument about refills. In any technology there has to be a point where you cut off the old wood. Retarding the development of a tool because of an obsession with a few 20 year old sound sets is really not healthy.

If someone wants a really old refill more than advanced editing, GUI, or high definition modulation, they are free to keep using the old version of Reason. I would rather throw it out with the VHS tapes and Minidiscs, and move on.

It seems like Props are very serious about things like their file formats and their SDK, so I would guess the update from .rns to .reason included some future-proofing. I doubt all the 3 or 4 year old refills will suddenly become completely unusable. Even if they do, I would choose hi-res GUI, expanded combinator, better sampler, smoother steps in values, etc, in a heartbeat.
scratchnsnifff wrote:
21 Feb 2019
True, I never really care about old songs after I finish them. But Iv had it explained along the lines of......
It would make buying certain refills in the shop incompatible or something.
I’m with that for sure! I just like new features and updates. When expanse refined its oscillators to an even more modern state, It was the best thing that happened in ages as far as I was concerned. They added user samples karplus strong synthesis internal FM and RM routing all without breaking backwards compatibility also they added new modifiers a EQ and other filters plus effect changes

If a 5(ish) year old company can do this to one of their rack products, surely the props could add a new oscillator or filter. I never could agree with that particular argument of backwards compatibility (to an extent I get it). Plus expanse was able to add all the drop down menus and workflow features. My guess for the props is that they don’t have the guy who actually made Thor anymore? If that we’re true it would make sense as to why they won’t touch it. But even with that knowledge I feel like the Europa/subtractor/parsec developer could crack that case and add some spice
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jlgrimes
Posts: 337
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

Post 21 Feb 2019

exxx wrote:
19 Feb 2019
I still use REASON and think it's usable, but there are many DAWs in the world

There are various daws, and every DAW has its own characteristics.

However, some DAWs have a relatively large number of users.

In Korea I have very few users of Reason.

What parts of REASON are lacking?

I would like to hear from people who use REASON with other DAWs.
1. Performance

Reason 10 years ago was probably the most CPU efficient software out. Now with VSTs, audio, and REs, it is normal to get glitchy playback. Compare to other DAWS that worked out these issues years ago.

2. No track freeze.

Needed more than ever now.

3. Old GUI.

Reason 10 years ago looked pretty cool. Reason's three different views look totally different. Sequencer looks pretty decent. Mixer while clunky, looks ok. The Rack is pretty much unchanged and needs an update to match the high resolution monitors of today.

4. Clunky midi editor

Reason has improved here but some features like no paintbrush, good curve system, keybinding system, note muting still makes this area somewhat weak compared to like FL Studio.

5. Old effects

Reasons stock compressor and EQs are dated. SSL EQ is ok but it has limitations. Compare with EQ8 in Ableton with 8 bands, mid side, variety of curves. The compressors IMO are even more behind. While Pulversizer is great what is lacking is a good workhorse compressor with lookahead, self sidechaining, more variable knee.

chaosroyale
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Post 22 Feb 2019

Pretty much what you said. Thing is, I am positive that props already know all of this. In fact, I don't think there is a single person in the DAW-literate world who doesn't know that we have spent years asking for a new combinator, new M CLass, Hi-res gfx, etc.

It might be as simple as their future plans not being focused on DAW development, in which case we are all wasting our time even thinking about future upgrades, and should all move on ASAP because this is pretty much how things will remain.

I really hope that is not the case, but then again I owned an AMIGA back in the day, and should have jumped ship a couple of years before I finally did. Reason reminds me of the AMIGA in many ways - unique, way ahead of its time originally but then left to fall further and further behind. EDIT: in fact, even the excuses by the true believers were the same - "we only needed 512KB of RAM in 1986, why do you need more now?...Amiga was the first to have 4 channel 8 bit sound, in the box!! (yeah, but now PCs have 9-channel 16 bit sound for a few dollars extra)...just wait until the next version arrives in 1991! i mean 92...93...??"

I'm basically an optimist though so I am hoping to be surprised by props with R11 and forced to eat a great big slice of humble pie.
jlgrimes wrote:
21 Feb 2019
exxx wrote:
19 Feb 2019
I still use REASON and think it's usable, but there are many DAWs in the world

There are various daws, and every DAW has its own characteristics.

However, some DAWs have a relatively large number of users.

In Korea I have very few users of Reason.

What parts of REASON are lacking?

I would like to hear from people who use REASON with other DAWs.
1. Performance

Reason 10 years ago was probably the most CPU efficient software out. Now with VSTs, audio, and REs, it is normal to get glitchy playback. Compare to other DAWS that worked out these issues years ago.

2. No track freeze.

Needed more than ever now.

3. Old GUI.

Reason 10 years ago looked pretty cool. Reason's three different views look totally different. Sequencer looks pretty decent. Mixer while clunky, looks ok. The Rack is pretty much unchanged and needs an update to match the high resolution monitors of today.

4. Clunky midi editor

Reason has improved here but some features like no paintbrush, good curve system, keybinding system, note muting still makes this area somewhat weak compared to like FL Studio.

5. Old effects

Reasons stock compressor and EQs are dated. SSL EQ is ok but it has limitations. Compare with EQ8 in Ableton with 8 bands, mid side, variety of curves. The compressors IMO are even more behind. While Pulversizer is great what is lacking is a good workhorse compressor with lookahead, self sidechaining, more variable knee.

jazzrobot
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Joined: 05 Mar 2019

Post 08 Mar 2019

I love Reason. I’ve been using it for a LONG time. My biggest wish has been video support. I score for film & television, and I would love to do it in reason. I used rewire & I know there are some other ways of using 3rd party applications...BUT now that reason has the vst support it , with video capability, it would be the very best DAW in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by jazzrobot on 08 Mar 2019, edited 2 times in total.

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Jagwah
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Post 09 Mar 2019

jazzrobot wrote:
08 Mar 2019
I love Reason. I’ve been using it for a LONG time. My biggest wish has been video support. I score for film & television, and I would love to do it in reason. I slides rewire & I know there are some other ways of using 3rd party applications...BUT now that reason has the vst support it , with video capability, it would be the very best DAW in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After recently searching for the best 'video editing in a DAW' possibilities or what video editing capable software could Rewire with Reason, I came to the conclusion that there is actually a gap in the market here. I'm extremely keen for the feature to have a couple of editing features, namely reverse, stretch, slice and re-arrange. I am quite worried that after all this time and effort, if the feature is implemented as a 'score only' feature with no editing features, I may blow a brain gasket.

Please send a mail here requesting the feature: https://www.propellerheads.com/contact/feedback

Thanks and welcome to the forum : D

sleep1979
Posts: 976
Joined: 20 Jul 2017

Post 09 Mar 2019

exxx wrote:
19 Feb 2019
I still use REASON and think it's usable, but there are many DAWs in the world

There are various daws, and every DAW has its own characteristics.

However, some DAWs have a relatively large number of users.

In Korea I have very few users of Reason.

What parts of REASON are lacking?

I would like to hear from people who use REASON with other DAWs.
Listen 100% this is the reason ( no pun intended ) there are leas reason users than ableton , reason cant be cracked , ableton can and fl studio can very easy thats why they are top rated people are free loading them

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boingy
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Post 09 Mar 2019

sleep1979 wrote:
09 Mar 2019
Listen 100% this is the reason ( no pun intended ) there are leas reason users than ableton , reason cant be cracked , ableton can and fl studio can very easy thats why they are top rated people are free loading them
Of course Reason can be cracked, it's just that no-one has done it yet. That, in itself, may tell you how niche Reason is hehe. :D

jazzrobot
Posts: 2
Joined: 05 Mar 2019

Post 10 Mar 2019

Jagwah wrote:
jazzrobot wrote:
08 Mar 2019
I love Reason. I’ve been using it for a LONG time. My biggest wish has been video support. I score for film & television, and I would love to do it in reason. I slides rewire & I know there are some other ways of using 3rd party applications...BUT now that reason has the vst support it , with video capability, it would be the very best DAW in my opinion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
After recently searching for the best 'video editing in a DAW' possibilities or what video editing capable software could Rewire with Reason, I came to the conclusion that there is actually a gap in the market here. I'm extremely keen for the feature to have a couple of editing features, namely reverse, stretch, slice and re-arrange. I am quite worried that after all this time and effort, if the feature is implemented as a 'score only' feature with no editing features, I may blow a brain gasket.

Please send a mail here requesting the feature: https://www.propellerheads.com/contact/feedback

Thanks and welcome to the forum : D
THANKS :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Timmy Crowne
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Location: California, United States

Post 10 Mar 2019

I feel that Reason just lacks elegance and simplicity at this point. It could really use some housekeeping. There’s too much redundancy. We have dozens of oscillators, filters, sample players, envelopes, LFOS, sequencers, arpeggiators, distortions, amps, reverbs, compressors and EQs spread across an ever-expanding set of prepackaged rack devices.

It’s getting wearisome having to add an entire device if I just want one LFO to modulate a fader because automation lanes don’t have LFOs built-in. Large projects are unwieldy scroll-fests, compounded by the fact that scrolling is still janky. A lot of time is lost switching views constantly because necessary functions are spread across 3 disparate views. Much of the screen real estate is taken up by device whitespace that doesn’t serve the user.

As much as I hate to say it, I think Reason might need to ditch the rack-centric focus. Just make an overhauled clean design. A comprehensive sequencer with a single mixer channel strip on the left for the selected track, and a device tree on the right. If the user needs the full mixer or rack, they can pop-up as floating windows.

And I think backwards compatibility needs to go out the door. It’s holding the program back. If I have MIDI data in a song from 2004 I haven’t bounced to audio yet, that song is probably trash.

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MusicianX
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Post 10 Mar 2019

The Prezenz wrote:
20 Feb 2019
Reason lacks fast workflow! We need speed!

We need a lot more keyboard short cuts, especially with midi editing in the pianoroll. It's a joke compared with other daws. That really needs to be updated.

I'm also surprised that nobody mentioned the f8 window. It still hasn't dissappeared in favor of keyboard shortcuts.

And we need a step sequencer like fl studio. That's really a bonus.

Couldn't agree more. I don't see many users speak about the F8 window either but it surely should've been key commands a long time ago. At least most of it.

Ad0
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Post 10 Mar 2019

  • True hardware integration in the that they need an own module acting as an "effect" that connects to hardware directly with latency compensation
  • "pluggable" mixer channel strip (replace SSL with another model)
  • workflow improvements
  • more MIDI functionality
  • a stable MIDI clock with unlimited number of devices sending it

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