"Reason sound" tested :)

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.

Which wav file is Reason?

1
3
16%
2
9
47%
3
5
26%
4
2
11%
 
Total votes: 19
User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1716
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 10 Jan 2019

Yesterday a guy posted in Reason Users FB group that according to him Reason sounds sharper or harsher than other DAWs. The usual discussion ensued...

To get some hard data I've recreated the same simple "project" in 4 DAWs that I own (Bitwig 2.4, Live 10, Reason 10.2 and Studio One 4.1), using the same MIDI files and the same 6 VSTs with factory presets. I've not touched any faders (all at 0dB) or parameters anywhere, to ensure they play the same. All renders are 44kHz / 16bit. Standard routing applies, so eg. for Reason obviously all goes through SSL mixer, but it's untouched. Likewise there's no mixing whatsoever, no EQing, no side-chain compression, etc. so it sounds pretty shitty and there's even some clipping, because I couldn't turn down the patches :)

The project consists of (VST name / patch):
- pluck melody - Europa / Orbit Poly
- chords - Arturia DX7 V / Roards For Me
- bass - Synapse Dune 3 / Double Maker
- kick - NI Trk-01 Kick / Psy Zap
- hihats - U-He Zebra2 / Sleigh Hats
- master insert - Waves Abbey Road TG Mastering Chain / Mastering 1

The MIDI file, DAW project files and rendered wavs are at below link. Let's find out if anyone can say which file is from which DAW or at least which one is Reason :)

Good luck!!! :D



https://drive.google.com/open?id=1kl8jy ... i0IAMKwRke
Last edited by antic604 on 21 Jan 2019, edited 1 time in total.
Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Cubase Pro 10 @ Surface Pro 4
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
Marco Raaphorst
Posts: 2303
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

Was phase sync on Europa enabled? If not you Unison and the blend of OSC is random.

Phase invert doesn't work on these files so they are totally different indeed.
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

splitpen
Posts: 7
Joined: 22 Mar 2017

Post 10 Jan 2019

When loading the wavefiles in Audicity, you can see there are some small differences between the files.
Image

Have you exported the files with or without dither?

User avatar
Noplan
Posts: 583
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Cologne, Germany

Post 10 Jan 2019

The "reason sound" has been tested so often and whenever there was a difference, it was a mistake in the test.

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1716
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 10 Jan 2019

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Was phase sync on Europa enabled? If not you Unison and the blend of OSC is random.

Phase invert doesn't work on these files so they are totally different indeed.
Load the project / patch and check for yourself. I was looking for a patch that sounded roughly the same every time it's triggerd but also wasn't dull, so that there's some texture to it. I know it's not a perfect test, but I guess if Reason indeed had "a sound" then it would be heard without going deep into the zoomed-in waveforms with magnifying glass :)
Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Cubase Pro 10 @ Surface Pro 4
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1716
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 10 Jan 2019

splitpen wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Have you exported the files with or without dither?
Yes for Reason and Live, Bitwig doesn't have that option and I believe S1 either.

Still, I was running the projects at 44/16 and exported at that settings too, so I don't think dithering would have any effect?
Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Cubase Pro 10 @ Surface Pro 4
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

PhillipOrdonez
Posts: 310
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: Colombia

Post 10 Jan 2019

antic604 wrote:
10 Jan 2019
splitpen wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Have you exported the files with or without dither?
Yes for Reason and Live, Bitwig doesn't have that option and I believe S1 either.

Still, I was running the projects at 44/16 and exported at that settings too, so I don't think dithering would have any effect?
Not that you can hear it, but since you always work at a 32 bit floating point within reason, rendering without dither does have an effect.

User avatar
4filegate
Posts: 889
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

You don't have the ability to compare from start to finish an analog signal chain?

A signal chain consists of several components, such as amplifiers, data converters, interface, clocks and timing. The purpose of the signal chain is to gather and process data or apply system controls based on analysis of real-time information. Isn't it more important to understand the analog and digital world first, e.g. bells and alphorns from swiss and a fountain in front of the house that runs 24/7.

When I make people jump or shriek with surprise at the power of a sound then I know I have done my job!

User avatar
DiZo
Posts: 122
Joined: 20 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

on a French forum, a huge subject has been created about the myth about the audio engine
it results that apart from some difference concerning the panoramic law, the reading of the wave or the plugin is done in a similar way, with phase opposition etc ... and that if some micro difference appear, then they are inaudible
the power of psycho acoustics is really very big
dial on a same red or blue synth can make us perceive differences!
then of course if we use internal material (eq, comp etc ...) then the files become different


User avatar
Marco Raaphorst
Posts: 2303
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

antic604 wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Marco Raaphorst wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Was phase sync on Europa enabled? If not you Unison and the blend of OSC is random.

Phase invert doesn't work on these files so they are totally different indeed.
Load the project / patch and check for yourself. I was looking for a patch that sounded roughly the same every time it's triggerd but also wasn't dull, so that there's some texture to it. I know it's not a perfect test, but I guess if Reason indeed had "a sound" then it would be heard without going deep into the zoomed-in waveforms with magnifying glass :)
I don't have all these plugins.

Only thing I know is that audio tracks will phase cancel in all DAWs. You are comparing randomised settings.
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

User avatar
Karim
Posts: 787
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Italy

Post 10 Jan 2019

But really in 2019 are we still talking about Reason Sound? Or maybe I traveled in time? :shock:
The Reason Sound is a bit like Santa Claus...
Everyone knows that it doesn't exist but everyone talks about it :lol:
Karim Le Mec : Dj / Producer / Label Owner ( :reason: Vers 10.2 on  IMac 2016 21")
FOLLOW Karim Le Mec
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Heigen5
Posts: 342
Joined: 25 Sep 2018
Location: Lõvi-isa

Post 10 Jan 2019

I'm not gonna say what I voted yet, but to my ears, the second file had the most noisy sound. The best sounding file was file 1.

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1716
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 10 Jan 2019

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Only thing I know is that audio tracks will phase cancel in all DAWs. You are comparing randomised settings.
But that was precisely the goal. I'm 100% sure that if I play the same wav file in 4 DAWs and render them they'll be identical. My goal was to show that even using VSTs and some master processing via Waves' plugin it still sounds virtually the same, even if 1s and 0s are not exactly the same.
Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Cubase Pro 10 @ Surface Pro 4
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1716
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 10 Jan 2019

4filegate wrote:
10 Jan 2019
You don't have the ability to compare from start to finish an analog signal chain?

A signal chain consists of several components, such as amplifiers, data converters, interface, clocks and timing. The purpose of the signal chain is to gather and process data or apply system controls based on analysis of real-time information. Isn't it more important to understand the analog and digital world first, e.g. bells and alphorns from swiss and a fountain in front of the house that runs 24/7.

When I make people jump or shriek with surprise at the power of a sound then I know I have done my job!
I'm tempted to say you're in wrong topic. Or at least have not read the OP...
Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Cubase Pro 10 @ Surface Pro 4
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

User avatar
4filegate
Posts: 889
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

antic604 wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'm tempted to say you're in wrong topic. Or at least have not read the OP...
I'm sorry if the edge of your plate is too high again.

User avatar
motuscott
Posts: 1307
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: the new york

Post 10 Jan 2019

So glad we've finally returned to this timeless subject.
Sometimes a cigar is just a synth that's on fire

User avatar
aeox
Posts: 2024
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

Post 10 Jan 2019

motuscott wrote:
10 Jan 2019
So glad we've finally returned to this timeless subject.
:lol:

User avatar
antic604
Posts: 1716
Joined: 23 Oct 2017
Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 10 Jan 2019

4filegate wrote:
10 Jan 2019
antic604 wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I'm tempted to say you're in wrong topic. Or at least have not read the OP...
I'm sorry if the edge of your plate is too high again.
I understood perfectly what you said the first time.

It's just that it has very little to do with this topic.

If you think that discussing technical matters with regards to art is irrelevant (which I tend to agree with!) then just get off of your high horse and ignore this thread :)
Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Cubase Pro 10 @ Surface Pro 4
my music - https://soundcloud.com/antic604
other stuff - "Psytrance in Bitwig Studio" tutorial

PhillipOrdonez
Posts: 310
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: Colombia

Post 10 Jan 2019

DiZo wrote:
10 Jan 2019
on a French forum, a huge subject has been created about the myth about the audio engine
it results that apart from some difference concerning the panoramic law, the reading of the wave or the plugin is done in a similar way, with phase opposition etc ... and that if some micro difference appear, then they are inaudible
the power of psycho acoustics is really very big
dial on a same red or blue synth can make us perceive differences!
then of course if we use internal material (eq, comp etc ...) then the files become different
The English quotes were interesting to read. Thanks!

User avatar
DiZo
Posts: 122
Joined: 20 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

I searched for good reference :)

m.arthur
Posts: 57
Joined: 21 Oct 2017

Post 10 Jan 2019

To those finding "differences" when looking at an audio editor -- remember, lots of synths will not render the same waveform on every render, due to random phase and many other possible random aspects of the oscillators, emulating analog hardware. This is normal. So, a "difference" in a mixdown, you can't just assume it's the DAW's mixdown engine! Deliberately random Oscillator elements are just one of many possible instrument and effect level wildcards that can change the resulting waveform.

splitpen wrote:
10 Jan 2019
When loading the wavefiles in Audicity, you can see there are some small differences between the files.
Image

Have you exported the files with or without dither?

User avatar
DiZo
Posts: 122
Joined: 20 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

and music is not for bat :)

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guitfnky
Posts: 785
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 10 Jan 2019

while I appreciate the spirit of such testing, it's sort of like going through the trouble of re-proving the spherical shape of the earth; you're not going to change the minds of anyone who thinks it's flat, and you don't need to change the minds of the less nutty/conspiracy-theory-minded of us. :lol:

m.arthur
Posts: 57
Joined: 21 Oct 2017

Post 10 Jan 2019

guitfnky wrote:
10 Jan 2019
while I appreciate the spirit of such testing, it's sort of like going through the trouble of re-proving the spherical shape of the earth; you're not going to change the minds of anyone who thinks it's flat, and you don't need to change the minds of the less nutty/conspiracy-theory-minded of us. :lol:
+1

The people whom this sort of thing is "for" are generally either not capable of and/or entirely resistant to having a worthwhile discussion about it. Oh well.

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