Really hanging for this Peformance Update

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fotizimo
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Post 29 Nov 2018

ProfessaKaos wrote:
29 Nov 2018
Noplan wrote:
29 Nov 2018


Yes, but you said you can`t finish a song even if you work with bounced audio tracks.
If I were to use nothing but Reason stock devices instead of third party plugins/Re's I would have no issues, I just wouldn't be able to achieve some things I can with 3rd party plugins.
Bouncing to audio does help, but it isn't a massive improvement.

See, this is where things are different for me. If I bring up projects made in v8 (no VSTs) and made on the exact same laptop, in Reason v10, they do not play like they used to.

If I create a project in v10 this morning and close out, and bring up later, the performance is horrible. It is just a very inconsistent experience for me, and makes things hard to continue to work. If I start with a blank project, and built our using even only REs, things will be fine. But those same projects do not work well later. All of this while using Window's High Performance setting. I can barely use Reason unless I have manually set High Performance.

So for my experience, this isn't wholly a VST performance issue, this is a Reason in-general issue.
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WongoTheSane
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Post 29 Nov 2018

I'm in the camp that thinks ProfessorKaos' setup should be able to handle many more devices than what he stated (at least about 50 VST devices, in a mix of synths and effects, all playing at the same time). Kaos, you should try and run LatencyMon (http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon) to see what's preventing your system from running at top speed. I had problems before and with the help of this tool realized there was a NVidia Audio Driver (useless, as I have a Babyface too) that was causing interrupts so frequently that it was wreaking havoc on the DSP. I disabled it and now can run three times what I could before...

Jmax
Posts: 515
Joined: 03 Apr 2015

Post 29 Nov 2018

Arrant wrote:
29 Nov 2018
Jmax wrote:
29 Nov 2018
I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe. I have similar specs, a huge host of VSTs which all work fine. Kontakt instruments etc. You're telling me, you can't write music? mix? or master? and the guy has an RME? vs. my Presonus VSL44. I do just fine.
You are of course free to believe what you wish. Some people believe the earth is flat. Many people don’t believe in climate change, but that doesn’t make it any less real or any less dangerous.
I’m happy that you get the performance you need, but there are also lots of users demonstrating that they do not, and trust me our problems are real.

There are of course differences between VSTs as well, V-station is no DIVA for example.

For the record, I’m not the one with the RME, my soundcard is more humble but my computer is not. The soundcard isn’t a problem though, as evidenced by performance in other DAWs.
If I have similar specs to you, or the user and I am able to run very well (as are almost all other windows users with those specs). Then it is logical to assume the problem is not with Reason, but with how Windows is handling it on your PC. And most likely your system is not configured probably.
It's called logic. Clearly which you have none.

Nice try with the flat earth bs.

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NekujaK
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Post 29 Nov 2018

It's been widely recognized Reason has performance issues around VSTs. Even the Props admit it and are working on it. There's no point in debating that.

Different system configurations will naturally have some performance variations. But the acid test is simply to compare similar VST setups between Reason and another DAW on the same system. Unfortunately, the other DAW will always outperform Reason, and this is what needs fixing.

I don't care if my overall system is slower or faster than somebody else's. What matters is that Reason gets smoked by Reaper (or any other DAW) all day long on ANY system. I don't expect Reason to perform at Reaper's level of efficiency (few DAWs do), but it should at least be in the same ballpark. Like it is when using only REs.

I hate being forced to work in other DAWs to complete projects, so I'm crossing my fingers the Props coding wizards are throwing down some ultra-vicious code! :)
wreaking havoc with :reason: since 2.5

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ProfessaKaos
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Post 29 Nov 2018

mashers wrote:
29 Nov 2018
This doesn't seem normal. My 2011 iMac is fairly low-spec, with a 2.5GHz Intel Core i5, 12GB of RAM and the built-in audio interface, and some of my Reason racks are massive. My latest has one Kong, nine Thor and eight vocal tracks, all of which have their own compressors and effects. In this track I also have a couple of combinators which house stacks of effects for processing some of the vocal tracks as insert effects. Other songs are similarly sized and also include a VST and a RE. The machine never chokes and I can manipulate the devices while the track is playing.

If you can't even play back your songs after bouncing to audio tracks then I would say there is a bigger problem on your machine. I'm not so hot on Windows these days, but my first thought would be to check Task Manager to see what is using resources on your machine. If something in the background is utilising lots of CPU and/or RAM, that could be your problem.
Yeah I always go to task manager and end task on anything I don't believe should be running in the background which helps a tiny bit.
I believe processing at bus stages actual uses more resources IMO. I mix into my master processing so I can hear how it sounds with Mastering (compressor and limiter) so I don't over do compression and saturation/distortion. I have bus channels (which all have processing VST's) for Drums, Instruments, Bass, Vocals and SFX. These also all have parallel channels, then both channels (bus and parallel bus) are routed to an All bus (example All Drums channel) for control over both channel levels combined.
I feel this routing configuration is what makes Reason use more DSP. My template I start with sits on 2 bars DSP at idle. Hope this made some sense.

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jam-s
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Post 29 Nov 2018

Crumbfort wrote:
29 Nov 2018

My specs:

2012 Mac Pro / 10.13.6 / 3.33 GHz 6-Core / 32 GB RAM / Fireface UFX
Without telling the sample rate and buffer size you're working at you are not giving much useful info on your setup.
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace.

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Data_Shrine
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Post 29 Nov 2018

fotizimo wrote:
29 Nov 2018
ProfessaKaos wrote:
29 Nov 2018


If I were to use nothing but Reason stock devices instead of third party plugins/Re's I would have no issues, I just wouldn't be able to achieve some things I can with 3rd party plugins.
Bouncing to audio does help, but it isn't a massive improvement.

See, this is where things are different for me. If I bring up projects made in v8 (no VSTs) and made on the exact same laptop, in Reason v10, they do not play like they used to.

If I create a project in v10 this morning and close out, and bring up later, the performance is horrible. It is just a very inconsistent experience for me, and makes things hard to continue to work. If I start with a blank project, and built our using even only REs, things will be fine. But those same projects do not work well later. All of this while using Window's High Performance setting. I can barely use Reason unless I have manually set High Performance.

So for my experience, this isn't wholly a VST performance issue, this is a Reason in-general issue.
Performance got worse (a lot) for me too with v10, even without VST, on macOS. I actually disable them, because I use VST only in rewired projects (for now), so they are hosted in another DAW. Reason becomes unusable if I don't disable the on-board graphic card on my MBP. It was a stated solution, but not everyone has a dedicated graphic card on their mac.

So I hope that the performance update will go beyond VST-only. I first noticed Reason performing worse with the VST update on v9. Just slower in general, again, even without using VST. It got even worse with v10.

Anyway. Hope it will be sorted soon, and if they can't fix it all in the upcoming update, I hope they will keep working on it until performance is acceptable. It's one of the reasons I didn't plunge on some Black Friday deals this year - i'm taking a wait and see attitude to see how this will pan out.

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Crumbfort
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Post 29 Nov 2018

jam-s wrote:
29 Nov 2018
Crumbfort wrote:
29 Nov 2018

My specs:

2012 Mac Pro / 10.13.6 / 3.33 GHz 6-Core / 32 GB RAM / Fireface UFX
Without telling the sample rate and buffer size you're working at you are not giving much useful info on your setup.
Completely fair point! :puf_bigsmile:

Always running at 48k, buffer size at either 1024 or 2048.

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ProfessaKaos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post 29 Nov 2018

mashers wrote:
29 Nov 2018
This doesn't seem normal. My 2011 iMac is fairly low-spec, with a 2.5GHz Intel Core i5, 12GB of RAM and the built-in audio interface, and some of my Reason racks are massive. My latest has one Kong, nine Thor and eight vocal tracks, all of which have their own compressors and effects. In this track I also have a couple of combinators which house stacks of effects for processing some of the vocal tracks as insert effects. Other songs are similarly sized and also include a VST and a RE. The machine never chokes and I can manipulate the devices while the track is playing.

If you can't even play back your songs after bouncing to audio tracks then I would say there is a bigger problem on your machine. I'm not so hot on Windows these days, but my first thought would be to check Task Manager to see what is using resources on your machine. If something in the background is utilising lots of CPU and/or RAM, that could be your problem.
I'm simply comparing the performance of the same exact setup of routing and plugins I use in Ableton, FL Studio and Pro Tools.

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ProfessaKaos
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Post 29 Nov 2018

NekujaK wrote:
29 Nov 2018
I hate being forced to work in other DAWs to complete projects, so I'm crossing my fingers the Props coding wizards are throwing down some ultra-vicious code! :)
Yeah me too. I sort of refuse the move the project I'm working on to another DAW.

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antic604
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Post 30 Nov 2018

fotizimo wrote:
29 Nov 2018
See, this is where things are different for me. If I bring up projects made in v8 (no VSTs) and made on the exact same laptop, in Reason v10, they do not play like they used to.

If I create a project in v10 this morning and close out, and bring up later, the performance is horrible. It is just a very inconsistent experience for me, and makes things hard to continue to work. If I start with a blank project, and built our using even only REs, things will be fine. But those same projects do not work well later. All of this while using Window's High Performance setting. I can barely use Reason unless I have manually set High Performance.

So for my experience, this isn't wholly a VST performance issue, this is a Reason in-general issue.
Interesting. I'm also on Surface Pro 4 i7 and Reason runs good and stable for me, obviously taking into account the CPU restrictions of the platform. Some tips:
- Reason doesn't use GPU, thus rendering the graphics "eats" into the audio processing, so use Windows 175-200% scaling so that there's less stuff for Reason to draw,
- disable hyper-threading or at least test it ON vs. OFF,

BTW, if you don't want to have to manually switch power profiles, there's this great free tool that ramps up the CPU once programs from the list are launched - this way you can keep your Surface on low-power mode at all times: http://tringi.trimcore.cz/Full_Throttle_Override
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Arrant
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Post 30 Nov 2018

Jmax wrote:
29 Nov 2018
Arrant wrote:
29 Nov 2018


You are of course free to believe what you wish. Some people believe the earth is flat. Many people don’t believe in climate change, but that doesn’t make it any less real or any less dangerous.
I’m happy that you get the performance you need, but there are also lots of users demonstrating that they do not, and trust me our problems are real.

There are of course differences between VSTs as well, V-station is no DIVA for example.

For the record, I’m not the one with the RME, my soundcard is more humble but my computer is not. The soundcard isn’t a problem though, as evidenced by performance in other DAWs.
If I have similar specs to you, or the user and I am able to run very well (as are almost all other windows users with those specs). Then it is logical to assume the problem is not with Reason, but with how Windows is handling it on your PC. And most likely your system is not configured probably.
It's called logic. Clearly which you have none.

Nice try with the flat earth bs.
Well here's some logic for you:
If something is wrong with my setup, why isn't it a problem in other DAWs on the same system?
As I have demonstrated before, Reason is running VSTs at 40% capacity compared to Reaper.
Test it yourself if you find it so hard to believe. The problem with beliefs is that their holders are so often immune to having them changed by facts.

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ProfessaKaos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post 30 Nov 2018

WongoTheSane wrote:
29 Nov 2018
I'm in the camp that thinks ProfessorKaos' setup should be able to handle many more devices than what he stated (at least about 50 VST devices, in a mix of synths and effects, all playing at the same time). Kaos, you should try and run LatencyMon (http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon) to see what's preventing your system from running at top speed. I had problems before and with the help of this tool realized there was a NVidia Audio Driver (useless, as I have a Babyface too) that was causing interrupts so frequently that it was wreaking havoc on the DSP. I disabled it and now can run three times what I could before...

I will look into this, thanks much appreciated :thumbs_up:
As for the amount of plugins I am able to use within a session would maybe be around 40, more or less depending on the plugins used (mostly vocal processing and bus processing) which is including a couple synths before Reason won't play anymore.
I usually get to about 90% of the mix finished before the song won't play anymore, tends to happen on every song. I don't go full crazy with plugins like I can/do in Pro Tools.

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1031
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

Post 30 Nov 2018

While a large part of me wants them to update other areas, like the combinator and Europa etc, the other part of me is excited.

I do understand that many people are excited about vst synths and tools, and I will be happy when I can make a full dubstep production using just vst.

I can use all the tracks provided in ableton lite 10. With little issue. Only using serum and synthmasters
Ableton lite 10 comes with a barebones setup. It only provides a decent little reverb delay, their version of scales and chords/midi effects, and some other basic effects plus a few samplers

So having such a limited toolset, I have to use serum as my workhorse in that setup
Also, ableton runs vsts at such a faster frame per second rate!!

Scanning a table in serum looks amazingly better when at a faster FPS
I honestly hope that Reason gets to see performance like ableton someday, but for now I’ll settle for any bump in performance :)
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

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ProfessaKaos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post 30 Nov 2018

ProfessaKaos wrote:
30 Nov 2018
WongoTheSane wrote:
29 Nov 2018
I'm in the camp that thinks ProfessorKaos' setup should be able to handle many more devices than what he stated (at least about 50 VST devices, in a mix of synths and effects, all playing at the same time). Kaos, you should try and run LatencyMon (http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon) to see what's preventing your system from running at top speed. I had problems before and with the help of this tool realized there was a NVidia Audio Driver (useless, as I have a Babyface too) that was causing interrupts so frequently that it was wreaking havoc on the DSP. I disabled it and now can run three times what I could before...

I will look into this, thanks much appreciated :thumbs_up:
As for the amount of plugins I am able to use within a session would maybe be around 40, more or less depending on the plugins used (mostly vocal processing and bus processing) which is including a couple synths before Reason won't play anymore.
I usually get to about 90% of the mix finished before the song won't play anymore, tends to happen on every song. I don't go full crazy with plugins like I can/do in Pro Tools.
After trying LatencyMon everything seems to be working fine audio wise, saying the is no audio breakups or anything is causing issues. So out of curiosity I went into Device Manager and disabled all/any other sound/audio devices other than the RME Babyface and the result of playback in Reason is exactly the same, no difference. I was hoping maybe it would improve.

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antic604
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Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 30 Nov 2018

ProfessaKaos wrote:
30 Nov 2018
After trying LatencyMon everything seems to be working fine audio wise, saying the is no audio breakups or anything is causing issues. So out of curiosity I went into Device Manager and disabled all/any other sound/audio devices other than the RME Babyface and the result of playback in Reason is exactly the same, no difference. I was hoping maybe it would improve.
Well, then maybe you're just expecting too much of your system?

I'm assuming you did the usual stuff: lower bit rate, higher audio buffer, multi-core on, hyper-threading off? Even running Reason on a single screen with lower res should help, because it doesn't use GPU to render the GUI thus drawing 2+ screens at 4K takes a lot of performance from the CPU.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Arrant
Posts: 285
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Post 30 Nov 2018

antic604 wrote:
30 Nov 2018
ProfessaKaos wrote:
30 Nov 2018
After trying LatencyMon everything seems to be working fine audio wise, saying the is no audio breakups or anything is causing issues. So out of curiosity I went into Device Manager and disabled all/any other sound/audio devices other than the RME Babyface and the result of playback in Reason is exactly the same, no difference. I was hoping maybe it would improve.
Well, then maybe you're just expecting too much of your system?

I'm assuming you did the usual stuff: lower bit rate, higher audio buffer, multi-core on, hyper-threading off? Even running Reason on a single screen with lower res should help, because it doesn't use GPU to render the GUI thus drawing 2+ screens at 4K takes a lot of performance from the CPU.
Everyone, please, can't you just skip all this guesswork and get down to straight perfomance comparisons between DAWs on your own systems?
It really is that simple.

Reaper has a free trial. Load up the same VSTs in both DAWs, play the same MIDI clips over multiple instances and watch the DSP meter / computer too slow message. You'll be as blown away as I was.

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BananaSkins
Posts: 107
Joined: 29 Sep 2017

Post 30 Nov 2018

WongoTheSane wrote:
29 Nov 2018
I'm in the camp that thinks ProfessorKaos' setup should be able to handle many more devices than what he stated (at least about 50 VST devices, in a mix of synths and effects, all playing at the same time). Kaos, you should try and run LatencyMon (http://www.resplendence.com/latencymon) to see what's preventing your system from running at top speed. I had problems before and with the help of this tool realized there was a NVidia Audio Driver (useless, as I have a Babyface too) that was causing interrupts so frequently that it was wreaking havoc on the DSP. I disabled it and now can run three times what I could before...

Thanks for this info: sounds like a have a similar set up to you, looking forward to see if I have a Nvidia Audio Driver running along side my Babyface Pro... :thumbs_up:

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antic604
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Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 30 Nov 2018

Arrant wrote:
30 Nov 2018
Everyone, please, can't you just skip all this guesswork and get down to straight perfomance comparisons between DAWs on your own systems? It really is that simple.
The fact that Reason is less efficient with VSTs has been established as soon as 9.5 came out, so I'm not sure what's there to bitch & moan about until the fix is released? I did my own tests against Live 10 and Bitwig 2 few months ago and most plugins run 10-20% worse, selected few 50-75% worse. That's a known. Period.

Now if someone is forcing Reason to run the same number (and type) of VSTs as they can in other DAW, especially Reaper, they're either oblivious to that fact above or mad (you know the definition of madness, right?).

Also, Reason will NEVER be as efficient as Reaper because it's a different type of DAW with internal cross-patching, free-running & random LFOs/sequencers, audio-rate modulation, etc. so it can't pre-buffer and pre-calculate most of stuff in advance like Reaper, Cubase or S1 are doing. Look up "anticipative processing" for Reaper or "ASIO guard" for Cubase. Reason on the other hand is truly realtime, so it's more like Live or Bitwig in this regard, which are also often criticised when compared to traditional DAWs.

It's as if I was mad at Ferrari that it got stuck in a mud puddle in the middle of the forest... :roll:
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604
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Location: Warsaw, Poland

Post 30 Nov 2018

Arrant wrote:
30 Nov 2018
computer too slow message
For God's sake - disable that shit. You're wasting at least 15% of possible performance (and wrecking your nerves) because of it :o
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

Jmax
Posts: 515
Joined: 03 Apr 2015

Post 30 Nov 2018

Arrant wrote:
30 Nov 2018
Jmax wrote:
29 Nov 2018


If I have similar specs to you, or the user and I am able to run very well (as are almost all other windows users with those specs). Then it is logical to assume the problem is not with Reason, but with how Windows is handling it on your PC. And most likely your system is not configured probably.
It's called logic. Clearly which you have none.

Nice try with the flat earth bs.
Well here's some logic for you:
If something is wrong with my setup, why isn't it a problem in other DAWs on the same system?
As I have demonstrated before, Reason is running VSTs at 40% capacity compared to Reaper.
Test it yourself if you find it so hard to believe. The problem with beliefs is that their holders are so often immune to having them changed by facts.
OK, i get that. Well known that Reason's VST performance isn't quite up to par compared to the other DAW's.
I guess my argument would be, looking at the Subs comp specs..
10 PC- Windows 10, Intel 6800k, x99A-II, 32GB RAM. and an RME to top it off.
- to me this should be more then sufficient to run any VST you want or Kontakt instrument.
UNLESS you have Windows configured incorrectly, or power saving mode. Or you're writing the next John Williams score.
I know this because I run almost the exact same setup. Sure Reason may have some lagging issues, but looking at those specs it would seem that perhaps there could be a configuration issue. Is the sub not using a solid state drive? that could also slow things down.
I run a ton of VST's, Kontakt instruments (some of which take a while to load).
But even on my crappy PreSonusVSL44. It's all smooth sailing for the most part.

WongoTheSane
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Location: Paris, France

Post 30 Nov 2018

ProfessaKaos wrote:
30 Nov 2018
After trying LatencyMon everything seems to be working fine audio wise, saying the is no audio breakups or anything is causing issues. So out of curiosity I went into Device Manager and disabled all/any other sound/audio devices other than the RME Babyface and the result of playback in Reason is exactly the same, no difference. I was hoping maybe it would improve.
Damn, sorry about the false hope. I was worth a try, at least now we know bad drivers aren't the cause... :(

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ProfessaKaos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post 01 Dec 2018

WongoTheSane wrote:
30 Nov 2018
ProfessaKaos wrote:
30 Nov 2018
After trying LatencyMon everything seems to be working fine audio wise, saying the is no audio breakups or anything is causing issues. So out of curiosity I went into Device Manager and disabled all/any other sound/audio devices other than the RME Babyface and the result of playback in Reason is exactly the same, no difference. I was hoping maybe it would improve.
Damn, sorry about the false hope. I was worth a try, at least now we know bad drivers aren't the cause... :(
Na don't be sorry, thanks for this test. I'm pretty sure my computer is fine as my other 3 DAW's all work fine. Reason works fine, just runs into a holt far quicker than my other DAW's.
For others asking about my system, I have 4 SSD drives, one of them being an M.2. SSD for the OS and Apps. I have built my last 2 computers, and as a kid use to kill my parents computers and then fix them or upgrade them, so I know a little bit about computers. My system runs fine with every app.

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moneykube
Posts: 1648
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 01 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
30 Nov 2018
Arrant wrote:
30 Nov 2018
computer too slow message
For God's sake - disable that shit. You're wasting at least 15% of possible performance (and wrecking your nerves) because of it :o
wait :shock: :o :shock: :roll: :exclamation: :exclamation: you can disable that... grrr... off to relook at preferences duh

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BRIGGS
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Post 01 Dec 2018

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