Reason dreaming...

This forum is for discussing Propellerhead's music software. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
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JiggeryPokery
Posts: 938
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 11 Oct 2018

Boombastix wrote:
08 Oct 2018
Net. But they had a strike of loss years before that. Looks like VST brought back profits.
I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm, sorry! ;)

But in all seriousness, it's hard to parse those results as publicly available. (The last bit is important as we've no idea how reliable that site is, but as I pointed out some years ago back on PUF, certain things it shows are obvious and true, like my predicted massive Record write-offs when PH had to move everyone to Reason 6 effectively for free.)

As you note, they had a strike of "losses" or barely break evens for several years before and after "peak RE" in 2014.

Context is everything, and mostly it's sorely lacking so it's nigh impossible for outsiders like us to draw many firm conclusions here, so most of this is probably total bollocks. But one thing is very clear: that $2.5m profit for 2017 makes little sense if you think about it at all, as the published turnover is around $2m down on 2016, despite the "biggest Reason update ever!".

A reported $12m turnover with a small loss somehow becomes a ~25% turnover reduction and yet achieves a ~25% net profit? I can see the expression on Meadon and Jones's faces now. :lol: If you're making a loss at $12m, that's some feat—or trick—to suddenly go and make a 25% profit with a 25% lower turnover.

Still, there's a ton of entirely legal reasons it could be the case, but a sudden user splurge on VSTs and RE ain't any of them. ;) I'd be surprised if Reason upgrades accounted for the sudden rise in profit too, or else the profit would be (somewhat) comparable in previous upgrade years because, again, the turnover is comparable; Fruity Loops and Cubase and Ableton users didn't suddenly rush out and buy Reason 9/10 last year because of VST support, Europa, and some over-loudnessmaxed loops, so that turnover income still has to be accounted for as mostly from existing users upgrading (but that doesn't entirely square with two bits of other info I have I can't share).

So it's most likely some form of standard accounting workaround I can't pretend to understand to either make 2017 look good for the new investors, deferring tax on profits for a year for business capital reasons (i.e., $2.5m could be the combined profits of 2016 and 2017), or, another Reason user suggested to me recently, a method to defer taxes on shares from 2016 into 2017, which sounds clever enough to be eminently credible. ;)

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EnochLight
Posts: 4815
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 11 Oct 2018

JiggeryPokery wrote:
11 Oct 2018
I'd be surprised if Reason upgrades accounted for the sudden rise in profit too, or else the profit would be (somewhat) comparable in previous upgrade years because, again, the turnover is comparable; Fruity Loops and Cubase and Ableton users didn't suddenly rush out and buy Reason 9/10 last year because of VST support, Europa, and some over-loudnessmaxed loops
..or did they? We all know a fair amount of their profits come from Reason licenses (upgraders, sure; but new purchases are arguably more valuable). Is it really such a stretch to consider users of other DAW decided to add Reason to their toolbag now that it supports VST?

Since 9.5 and 10 dropped, I've noticed a far larger amount of threads at KVR about Reason. And we've seen our fair number of new forum members here that have "just picked up Reason".... Soooo....

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As a side note, 42% of poll respondents here cited Reason's VST support as a reason for them to return to using it (which implies upgraders and some new buyers):

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... on+10+poll

Note that this was at 10's launch. Some 14% more said they'd consider returning if more features were added...
Last edited by EnochLight on 11 Oct 2018, edited 3 times in total.
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selig
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Post 11 Oct 2018

For 2mil you’re getting close to decent seed (possibly angel) funding for a startup with a small team to create a ground-up modern design for music creation software. ;)


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Selig Audio, LLC

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ernstnathorst
Posts: 1
Joined: 23 Aug 2018

Post 12 Oct 2018

Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst

WongoTheSane
Posts: 1498
Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Location: Paris, France

Post 12 Oct 2018

EnochLight wrote:
11 Oct 2018
Since 9.5 and 10 dropped, I've noticed a far larger amount of threads at KVR about Reason. And we've seen our fair number of new forum members here that have "just picked up Reason".... Soooo....
In the same way, the Reason subreddit (www.reddit.com/r/reasoners) is way more active now than it was only a year ago. I'd say the number of posts has roughly doubled, and most of the posts are from newcomers (how do I do X basic stuff).

WongoTheSane
Posts: 1498
Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Location: Paris, France

Post 12 Oct 2018

ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
Post verified by mods.

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O1B
Posts: 1204
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

Post 12 Oct 2018

Wow. This is One GREAT Thread.

$2mil. And, $1mil spent on video code for Propellerhead Reason.
That's awesome commitment to a Brand that is to be Respected.

I did the same Reason Dreaming - STRANGE - ... and, I only came up w/$30Grand in Music Productiion Needs.

Jagwah. I think you're coming into more like $3million.
Spend it wisely.

Dont forget the Boots and the Gifts!

Jagwah wrote:
08 Oct 2018
Imagine I had two million dollars.
...
I will give you (Propellerhead) one million dollars, on the condition that video support is implemented in Reason by version ...
and / or

If you had the same two million dollars and wanted to do something with Reason, what would your proposition be?
Antic604 "Well, he's been doing it - mentioning Eurorack hardware - in majority of his posts, so I'm not surprised anymore :? Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:19 pm

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Boombastix
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Location: Bay Area, CA

Post 12 Oct 2018

I looked at old pressreleases. Propellerhead got rid of Allihoopa just a few years ago. Maybe part of the investment deal/discussion, I don't know. But Allihoopa was expensive/draining so Propellerhead's total reported profit was poor. After Allihoopa was gone a more true Propellerhead/Reason profit shows up in their statements. The big losses reported by Allihoopa (as its own company) more or less confirms this, as well as what Propellerhead told the press at the time this happened. The last 2 years the Allihoopa loss was around 2.5 million USD. So that pretty much explains it. My guess is that VST may still have added some and a nice modest trajectory continues, but it was not what made for the big change in profits. I have not seen any user stats, so I do not know if VST drove any user growth, but it sure made many happy!

Who know's if Allihoopa also consumed too much of the focus as a trouble child, but a promising child perhaps, and DAW development got behind. But it sounds like they want to catch up now. I hope they have an internal memo somewhere saying they shall not only make the sequencer catch up, but instead make it the freaking best in the biz.

Oh yeah, we also need Midi out from VST's.

FYI, high level company financial data is public in Sweden, this includes private corporations (sales/profit/solidity/etc). Press releases are just a Googling away. So there you have it, nothing controversial, just public info. I tried to be clear in the above text where I speculate a little and use "maybe/guess/..." .

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MannequinRaces
Posts: 675
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Post 13 Oct 2018

WongoTheSane wrote:
12 Oct 2018
ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
Post verified by mods.
Wow! That's cool!

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O1B
Posts: 1204
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

Post 13 Oct 2018

"Most of this speculation about our company is wrong."

Image
Antic604 "Well, he's been doing it - mentioning Eurorack hardware - in majority of his posts, so I'm not surprised anymore :? Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:19 pm

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motuscott
Posts: 1125
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Location: the new york

Post 13 Oct 2018

ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
Damn.
That's impressive.
Sometimes a cigar is just a synth that's on fire

MrFigg
Posts: 596
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 13 Oct 2018

motuscott wrote:
13 Oct 2018
ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
Damn.
That's impressive.
Maybe it’s one of those phone numbers that cost 1000 SEK per minute. That’d fund Reason 11 :)

Undistraction
Posts: 163
Joined: 11 May 2018

Post 13 Oct 2018

ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
I just called it. It just plays a track made with the three ethnic romplers from Reason 10. With a sample of the Propellerhead staff laughing and counting coins.

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EnochLight
Posts: 4815
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 13 Oct 2018

Undistraction wrote:
13 Oct 2018
ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
I just called it. It just plays a track made with the three ethnic romplers from Reason 10. With a sample of the Propellerhead staff laughing and counting coins.

ohyou.jpg
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WeLoveYouToo
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Location: portland, or

Post 14 Oct 2018

i would ask for video support too, honestly

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Faastwalker
Posts: 1322
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 14 Oct 2018

ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
I tried dialing the number & reached a Thai Massage shop! I did it from my work phone. Hope I don't get any come backs! That could be embarrassing. 'Honestly I was trying to reach the head of Propellerhead in Sweden who posted his office number up on a Reason forum so we could all ring him up to have a chat about his companies business model'. It's not going to wash is it.

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Arrant
Posts: 273
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 15 Oct 2018

Well I checked the Swedish phone directory and the number is legit:

Person
Ernst Nathorst Böös
Propellerhead Software
070 657 31 83

Of course that doesn't meen that the bossman himself made the post, anyone could have looked that up just as I did.

Undistraction
Posts: 163
Joined: 11 May 2018

Post 15 Oct 2018

Well I checked the Swedish phone directory and the number is legit:
Wow. So are you saying Ernst Nathorst Böös runs a massage parlor?

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QVprod
Posts: 1995
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 15 Oct 2018

Arrant wrote:
15 Oct 2018
Well I checked the Swedish phone directory and the number is legit:

Person
Ernst Nathorst Böös
Propellerhead Software
070 657 31 83

Of course that doesn't meen that the bossman himself made the post, anyone could have looked that up just as I did.
There's clearly a typo then. The first 6 in his post was probably intended to be a 0. As far as verification of it actually being Enrst, Wongo verified it. All first posts get screened by mods.

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sonicbyte
Posts: 176
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Argentina

Post 15 Oct 2018

Have you tested http://retouchcontrol.com/resync/ ?? It looks nice if you need video support in Reson

WongoTheSane
Posts: 1498
Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Location: Paris, France

Post 15 Oct 2018

ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
Arrant wrote:
15 Oct 2018
Well I checked the Swedish phone directory and the number is legit:

Person
Ernst Nathorst Böös
Propellerhead Software
070 657 31 83

Of course that doesn't meen that the bossman himself made the post, anyone could have looked that up just as I did.
Both are correct numbers. The international prefix for Sweden is 46. To dial the number for outside Sweden, you have to dial the international prefix in your country (for instance, 011 in the US, 00 in Europe, etc, which is indicated by the "+" sign), then the country code (46) then the phone number without the local prefix (0). From inside Sweden, you dial the national number, 070 657 31 83. As QVprod said, we verified that this post was indeed sent by Ernst himself, and that this is indeed his phone number. Hope this clears things up.

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Boombastix
Posts: 115
Joined: 18 May 2018
Location: Bay Area, CA

Post 15 Oct 2018

Seems people have forgotten how to dial internationally, lol.

I know Sweden changed their int'l dial out code to match the rest of Europes 00, but as that happened lots of people used the old code but ended up in India. Waking them up in India... True story.
WongoTheSane wrote:
ernstnathorst wrote:
12 Oct 2018
Most of this speculation about our company is wrong. If you have questions about our business, please feel free to call me on +46706573183, and I'll try to answer any of your questions! Thanks! /Ernst
Arrant wrote:
15 Oct 2018
Well I checked the Swedish phone directory and the number is legit:

Person
Ernst Nathorst Böös
Propellerhead Software
070 657 31 83

Of course that doesn't meen that the bossman himself made the post, anyone could have looked that up just as I did.
Both are correct numbers. The international prefix for Sweden is 46. To dial the number for outside Sweden, you have to dial the international prefix in your country (for instance, 011 in the US, 00 in Europe, etc, which is indicated by the "+" sign), then the country code (46) then the phone number without the local prefix (0). From inside Sweden, you dial the national number, 070 657 31 83. As QVprod said, we verified that this post was indeed sent by Ernst himself, and that this is indeed his phone number. Hope this clears things up.
Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk


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Arrant
Posts: 273
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 16 Oct 2018

EnochLight wrote:
10 Oct 2018
Arrant wrote:
09 Oct 2018
Well you're surely dreaming if you think you can hire a good developer in Scandinavia for $100k a year :lol:
Arrant wrote:
10 Oct 2018
If you want to hire them as consultants then probably 250 to 300k.
If employed, 100k is a good salary but as an employer you aldo need to pay tax, social costs, office space etc bringing the cost up to around 150-180k even then.
:o :shock: :?

Are you Swedish and in the industry? I am not sure what the difference is between software programmer, software developer, and software engineer. The average starting pay for a programmer in the US is around $35-000-$55,000 USD, and we have some of the highest costs of living in the entire freaking world!

For programmers, Ubisoft, Sony Mobile, and Stockholm University average $32,000 USD/year to $51,000 USD/year according to Glassdoor:

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/swed ... KO7,17.htm
Sorry for taking the thread a bit off-topic, but let me try to answer since you seem to be interested.

I'm Norwegian, used to be a developer back in the day and still work in IT. Wages here are a bit higher here than in Sweden and so are the living costs but we are comparable countries in many ways. Unlike the US we are welfare states, meaning that the government takes a lot more of our money and in turn provides schools, hospitals, unemployment benefits etc. Wages can be high, but so is tax (up to 50% Income tax in Sweden). On top of that the state takes their 25% VAT from everything that is sold in stores or provided as services, and puts additional tariffs of up to several hundred % on everything that's considered bad for us (alcohol, cigarettes, fossil fuel, even sugar and candy here in Norway this year, etc)

100k is a good salary, not something a rookie could expect (maybe 65-70k), but an experienced developer should earn around 90-130k. The cost for the employer though is much higher. They need to pay employment tax (somewhere between 15-20% of gross salary), mandatory pension payments (around 6% more), parts of sick leave / parental leave, health/life insurance, office space, equipment and telecom cost etc. Most of which are mandatory.
I would imagine living most places in the US is generally quite a bit cheaper than here, except in the big Metropolitan areas like NYC of course.
You can compare your city with Oslo or Stockholm here
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp

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O1B
Posts: 1204
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

Post 16 Oct 2018

SPOT ON, ARRANT.

My first Pre-Bacc was as a Programmer Analyst.
That was Coding life... JCL.. Fortran ... and the Like... the salary for a post-Bacc was $45-55K back then.
Ever see a real Pay chart for a company? NOT, what's printed in Newsweek.
That was a lowly, lowly PA. How about the Senior Pas?
System's Analyst? Senior SA? Project Managers?
All Coders.

And, that's just STARTING to climb any corporate ladder.

$90-130K is just about right - here in NY/NJ - if you know your worth and can command it.
Full medical and corporate trips to Germany - as we speak.

Outside the bubble, the facts are distorted.
Just like talking about teachers' salaries. .
$40-50K...? Try $90-$130K these days - with 6-7 years experience.
All public record per Town, and voted on by the Board of Ed.

O1B

"Nowadays every Tom, Dick and Harry thinks he knows it, but he is mistaken. "
(Albert Einstein, 1954)
Arrant wrote:
16 Oct 2018
EnochLight wrote:
10 Oct 2018

:o :shock: :?

Are you Swedish and in the industry? I am not sure what the difference is between software programmer, software developer, and software engineer. The average starting pay for a programmer in the US is around $35-000-$55,000 USD, and we have some of the highest costs of living in the entire freaking world!

For programmers, Ubisoft, Sony Mobile, and Stockholm University average $32,000 USD/year to $51,000 USD/year according to Glassdoor:

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/swed ... KO7,17.htm
...
100k is a good salary, not something a rookie could expect (maybe 65-70k), but an experienced developer should earn around 90-130k. The cost for the employer though is much higher. They need to pay employment tax (somewhere between 15-20% of gross salary), mandatory pension payments (around 6% more), parts of sick leave / parental leave, health/life insurance, office space, equipment and telecom cost etc. Most of which are mandatory.
I would imagine living most places in the US is generally quite a bit cheaper than here, except in the big Metropolitan areas like NYC of course.
You can compare your city with Oslo or Stockholm here
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
Antic604 "Well, he's been doing it - mentioning Eurorack hardware - in majority of his posts, so I'm not surprised anymore :? Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:19 pm

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EnochLight
Posts: 4815
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 16 Oct 2018

Arrant wrote:
16 Oct 2018
Sorry for taking the thread a bit off-topic, but let me try to answer since you seem to be interested.

I'm Norwegian, used to be a developer back in the day and still work in IT. Wages here are a bit higher here than in Sweden and so are the living costs but we are comparable countries in many ways. Unlike the US we are welfare states, meaning that the government takes a lot more of our money and in turn provides schools, hospitals, unemployment benefits etc. Wages can be high, but so is tax (up to 50% Income tax in Sweden). On top of that the state takes their 25% VAT from everything that is sold in stores or provided as services, and puts additional tariffs of up to several hundred % on everything that's considered bad for us (alcohol, cigarettes, fossil fuel, even sugar and candy here in Norway this year, etc)

100k is a good salary, not something a rookie could expect (maybe 65-70k), but an experienced developer should earn around 90-130k. The cost for the employer though is much higher. They need to pay employment tax (somewhere between 15-20% of gross salary), mandatory pension payments (around 6% more), parts of sick leave / parental leave, health/life insurance, office space, equipment and telecom cost etc. Most of which are mandatory.
I would imagine living most places in the US is generally quite a bit cheaper than here, except in the big Metropolitan areas like NYC of course.
You can compare your city with Oslo or Stockholm here
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp
Cool; thanks!
I would imagine living most places in the US is generally quite a bit cheaper than here, except in the big Metropolitan areas like NYC of course.
Except for the fact that no US citizen is automatically provided (higher education) schools, hospitals/medical, or pensions. We're basically on our own for that stuff. The previous president implemented a form of universal health care, but it's still relatively expensive and coverage is poor. So after we pay out of pocket for that stuff (most people aren't able to even save for retirement!), those average salaries start to look pretty small as well here. :(

Anyway, thanks for the breakdown - it's good information. At the end of the day, I knew that Sweden/Norway were welfare states, but never knew just how expensive the cost was.
Windows 10 64-bit | Reason 10 |  Studio One 3.5 | Asus Sabertooth Z77 | Intel i7 3770k Quad-Core @ 4.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Mushkin Reactor 1TB SSD | RME babyface Pro| Nektar Panorama P-4 | M-Audio Trigger Finger Pro

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