Upcoming Reason 10.x update to address VST-Performance: how much is good enough for you?

[Fred bladder]

As I understand, a major re-write is under way to address vst performance.
I'm wondering if the way reason handles midi will be improved to bring it up to
the standard of other major DAWs.
just taking Ableton as an example, being able to pass midi data between tracks and record
that data should be seamless.Being able to use midi out VSTs (Cthulhu,scaler,instachord e.t.c)
the way I can in Ableton is a must for me.Also being able to use multi timbral VSTs in a correct and efficient way.
I'm probably in a minority here, just wondering if this is affecting other users?

[buddard]

I'm hoping that it's not just VST performance they're addressing. There are also other serious issues to deal with, for example the less than impressive graphics performance on recent high end hardware like the iMac Pro.

But now when I'm looking back at all the PH blog posts mentioning this update, only VST performance is mentioned...

[Arrant]

Before considering what would be acceptable, I would like to know where the OP feels Reason is at today? What percentage?

[EnochLight]

Yeah, so to compare apples with apples did you compare Bitwig and Reason with modulation? Would be interesting to know.

No, I haven't. I'm specifically interested in VST-performance (as in, "per count") with this particular poll.

[Reminiscence]

Off-topic probably, but has someone mentioned that some VSTi's don't even load in Reason? Works fine in Acid Pro (64-bit), the instruments, but no luck as of in Reason. Strange, and not giving an overall positive with my experience of VSTi's in Reason. Oh yeah, VST3 support will also be appreciated. Anyway...

[normen]

No, I haven't. I'm specifically interested in VST-performance (as in, "per count") with this particular poll.

But the poll refers to other DAWs and "comparable" performance?

[EnochLight]

No, I haven't. I'm specifically interested in VST-performance (as in, "per count") with this particular poll.

But the poll refers to other DAWs and "comparable" performance?

The poll/thread title is "Upcoming Reason 10.x update to address VST-Performance: how much is good enough for you?" It's not really modulation that interests me - and presumably most others. It's track count. The poll questions include the word "comparable" as suggested by antic604, in an effort to get him to participate in the poll.

Modulating VST would be a cool comparison, though. Just maybe not what people are thinking of when they want a basic "how many of VST-X can I get in Reason since I can get Y amount in DAW Z"?

I've updated the original post to reflect this, for clarity.

[normen]

Just maybe not what people are thinking of when they want a basic "how many of VST-X can I get in Reason since I can get Y amount in DAW Z"?

Well I can get 100 or 10 instances of the same plugin in Logic - depending on the settings and them being played live etc. How do we account for that?

[EnochLight]

Just maybe not what people are thinking of when they want a basic "how many of VST-X can I get in Reason since I can get Y amount in DAW Z"?

Well I can get 100 or 10 instances of the same plugin in Logic - depending on the settings and them being played live etc. How do we account for that?

Account for it any way you like. YMMV, depending on your settings, etc. But for the purpose of this poll, we're talking simply "track count". Choose your VST, create as many instances as you can in Reason, and have them play the same MIDI track. Now do the same in DAW-Z, and see if you can get more (or less, or comparably the same +/- 10%).

If you'd like to take modulation and other settings into consideration, knock yourself out! I'd love to hear about your results.

[normen]

If you'd like to take modulation and other settings into consideration, knock yourself out! I'd love to hear about your results.

Well I posted my results a long time ago. To really have comparable circumstances I opted to test the performance of the Softube plugins in Logic on a live channel and in series. The same in Reason. Result: Same instance count.

[EnochLight]

If you'd like to take modulation and other settings into consideration, knock yourself out! I'd love to hear about your results.

Well I posted my results a long time ago. To really have comparable circumstances I opted to test the performance of the Softube plugins in Logic on a live channel and in series. The same in Reason. Result: Same instance count.

That's great news - once Props release the VST-performance fix, I look forward to your test again. Perhaps you'll be able to get more in Reason. Perhaps not.

At any rate, playing the same polyphonic preset in Serum ("Swedish Glitter", using the same MIDI clip), I can only get 6 instances in Reason 10.2 (256 sample buffer, 44.1 Khz). In Studio One 3.5.6 (256 sample buffer, 44.1 Khz) I can get 12 instances - literally twice as many as in Reason. My results are not unique...

But Reason's VST performance issues are already known. This poll is just meant to gauge people's expectations once the fix is released later this year.

[antic604]

I modified it, taking your post into consideration. Can you vote now?

I meant comparable DAWs, not performance. But thanks, I voted

[antic604]

Slightly related: I was just talking to someone about this very thing over at KVR. Reason doesn't require a sequencer track for any of its devices to be modulated. That's pretty unique to Reason.

That would be me

Sure, it's unique but in terms of measuring performance that's pretty irrelevant. It's just design choice, that those DAWs - Live and Bitwig - wasn't really needing such sequencers to exist, because they have clip launchers which are the generalisation of such idea.

[normen]

Well I posted my results a long time ago. To really have comparable circumstances I opted to test the performance of the Softube plugins in Logic on a live channel and in series. The same in Reason. Result: Same instance count.

That's great news - once Props release the VST-performance fix, I look forward to your test again. Perhaps you'll be able to get more in Reason. Perhaps not.

At any rate, playing the same polyphonic preset in Serum ("Swedish Glitter", using the same MIDI clip), I can only get 6 instances in Reason 10.2 (256 sample buffer, 44.1 Khz). In Studio One 3.5.6 (256 sample buffer, 44.1 Khz) I can get 12 instances - literally twice as many as in Reason. My results are not unique...

But Reason's VST performance issues are already known. This poll is just meant to gauge people's expectations once the fix is released later this year.

So you just tested playback. I see.

[antic604]

Quoting myself from few months back...

During my testing - which is still going, I don't really have time - I've came to two conclusions:

1) It really depends on a VST - for example with The Legend, Monark and RePro-5 my results of Reason 10 vs. Bitwig 2.3 were close, i.e up to 10% less for the former. For Thorn VST, the difference was already bigger, i.e. Reason culd run 70% of the instances Bitwig would, whereas for Analog Ultra VA-2 only 30%

2) However, Reason handles high load more "gracefuly". What I mean is that with Bitwig (and indeed Live, I started testing as well) you can add instances and suddenly it starts glitching, but when you remove one instance it still glitches, sometimes even more so you end up removing 3-5 instances to get to stable playback. I never really know what's the precise number. Also, their GUI falls down on its nees - gets totally unresponsible, like 1 frame per second. With Reason, it's much more stable and predictable - if glitches start, it's enough to just take away the last instance that was added and it's back to normal. Also, the GUI - while slowing down - is still functional.

...so it's really a case-by-case thing, but I'm pretty sure Props made their own testing and were able to pin down the causes for some plugins having major performance issues, whereas most is only 10-20% slower. I'd hope they improve the latter and fix the former, at least to be on par with comparable DAWs, i.e. Live and Bitwig.

[antic604]

Yeah, so to compare apples with apples did you compare Bitwig and Reason with modulation? Would be interesting to know.

What you mean by that? Do you want to compare Bitwig's vs. Reason's modular capabilities? Or compare performance of a VST that's modulated by e.g. Reason's Pulsar and Bitwig's LFO modulator?

[joeyluck]

I hope during these improvements, they can also bring back the ability to minimize VST windows on macOS.

There was a bug before causing issues with minimized VST windows, so the ability to do so was simply removed to avoid the bugs. It really kills my workflow to not be able to keep the VSTs that I'm working with, open and minimized, and be able to recall them from the dock rather than having to navigate to them in the Rack or Sequencer over and over.

[normen]

Yeah, so to compare apples with apples did you compare Bitwig and Reason with modulation? Would be interesting to know.

What you mean by that? Do you want to compare Bitwig's vs. Reason's modular capabilities? Or compare performance of a VST that's modulated by e.g. Reason's Pulsar and Bitwig's LFO modulator?

Yeah, compare the instance count in Bitwig and Reason *while* they modulate the plugins.

[EnochLight]

... I'd hope they improve the latter and fix the former, at least to be on par with comparable DAWs, i.e. Live and Bitwig.

..and Studio One.

[Troublemecca]

I must not know what I'm missing... I bought the rigs re bundle half off a few months ago, and I haven't really wanted for anything. Reason is complex enough as is for me to go adding more endless possibilities [emoji38]

/edit

MPE support would be sweet so I could use this seaboard block like it was meant to be... The workarounds (working in tracktion, the daw that came free with it) are, at the very least, ugly lol

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using Tapatalk

[platzangst]

Maybe I think about things differently.

What is "good enough"? And good enough for what?

Up until not too long ago, Reason had no VST support at all - and now it has some. From my perspective, it is far easier for me to work with VSTs and remain in Reason than it was before. That's better, but it's not perfect. In fact, nothing could ever be perfect - I'd always like better hardware, more efficient software, more unusual processing and synthesis methods, I don't see myself ever being 100% satisfied, there's always some new plateau or achievement to reach, at least as far as gear lust goes.

But, I can work with things as they are now. If Reason isn't up to the task, there's usually some kind of workaround. True, since I don't perform live, I'm not trying to figure out how to run a hundred synths in real time on stage, so that's a problem others may have that doesn't really bother me. Still, as things are now, things are "good enough for me to get by with" - but I'd always like it better.

[antic604]

... I'd hope they improve the latter and fix the former, at least to be on par with comparable DAWs, i.e. Live and Bitwig.

..and Studio One.

Well, that was the reason I first commented here - Studio One is a different ballpark, because it doesn't have any internal modulation system like Reason, Bitwig's modulators or Live's M4L devices. In v3.5 they've added this extra buffering layer that improves performance (or gives lower latency), which is similar to Cubases in that it calculates some stuff - the unarmed tracks - ahead of playback.

[madmacman]

Maybe I think about things differently.

What is "good enough"? And good enough for what?

Up until not too long ago, Reason had no VST support at all - and now it has some. From my perspective, it is far easier for me to work with VSTs and remain in Reason than it was before. That's better, but it's not perfect. In fact, nothing could ever be perfect

I suppose, this is the main misconception here by some users. With integration of VST, is Reason now

a) a full-fledged DAW that has to compete with the entire market out there (read: you could use the Reason core system as host for VST instruments and effects only, ignoring most stock devices, and still get the same performance level like the competitors)

or

b) still "Reason" by itself - preferring mainly stock devices, sometimes RE's and every now and then one (!) additional VST for the fun of it?

In my opinion: If anyone hopes for a) one day, he/she will be badly disappointed.

[EnochLight]

Well, the way I look at is this: once Reason added audio recording, RE’s, external MIDI instruments, built-in audio pitch editing, and now VST-support - it most certainly started to lean towards the “a” category. I don’t think it gets much plainer than that, IMHO.

I do feel the “value” of Reason still remains quite high because of what you can do ITB without having to add any VST, though.

[EnochLight]

..and Studio One.

Well, that was the reason I first commented here - Studio One is a different ballpark, because it doesn't have any internal modulation system like Reason, Bitwig's modulators or Live's M4L devices. In v3.5 they've added this extra buffering layer that improves performance (or gives lower latency), which is similar to Cubases in that it calculates some stuff - the unarmed tracks - ahead of playback.

Perhaps, but it’s still a huge contender for “comparable DAW” because of its ITB features, workflow, it’s quite popular as a secondary DAW for Reasoners, and its VST track count is so good. If anything, I wouldn’t count Reaper since you get very little ITB with it. Like, hardly any content at all (content that I’d rate high, anyway).

Reason, Bitwig, Live, and Studio One all share a common high-quality ITB offering from the start.

But if we’re going to focus on modulation possibilities as part of the equation, maybe a new poll/thread would be effective? Beats me.

I still think that most users of VST are simply looking at track count in “Reason versus DAW X”, modulation possibilities notwithstanding.