A synth is a synth (pretty much)?

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MrFigg
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17 Sep 2018

Right. I’m laying myself open a bit here. Call me a heretic, but I’m really getting caught up in the idea that all synths are pretty much created equal. Additive, subtractive, granular (maybe) and all the other ones in between. Yeah I know some stand out like the old favourite tb-303. It’s just that I’ve got so many in my Rack and a LOT of the pads and the patches and the leads sound just the same as each other. Different filters, knobs, bells and whistles but essentially the same. Again, call me a heretic, and maybe I’m missing something but, well, that’s what’s been in my mind today. :)
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Loque
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17 Sep 2018

Agree, but not totally. You can create similar sounds with most synths and synth categories. Sometimes the audible differences are subtle, sometimes more. Only if the specific features of the synth are used, features other synths do not have, than the patches may sound unique.

I just got crazy while reproducing a specific sound actually only the JP-8 could produce (from the stuff in my arsenal):
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7508510

Sometimes it is a specific feature (cross modulation), the way the sounds interact (TB303 with previous notes/amps), a set of features (AM, FM, RM, PWM, free draw waveforms, modifiers....), filter responses and curves, or completely new ideas, that creates the final sound

I wish the devs would focus more on unique and maybe completely new ways to create sounds or provide the right features, to do it on my own. And they should also provide enough good patches, that show those new sounds!

Same goes for effects. I do not need the 1000th phaser (yes, i meant you PL16!).
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jlgrimes
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17 Sep 2018

MrFigg wrote:
17 Sep 2018
Right. I’m laying myself open a bit here. Call me a heretic, but I’m really getting caught up in the idea that all synths are pretty much created equal. Additive, subtractive, granular (maybe) and all the other ones in between. Yeah I know some stand out like the old favourite tb-303. It’s just that I’ve got so many in my Rack and a LOT of the pads and the patches and the leads sound just the same as each other. Different filters, knobs, bells and whistles but essentially the same. Again, call me a heretic, and maybe I’m missing something but, well, that’s what’s been in my mind today. :)

There are differences. Some subtle, some not so subtle.

That said most "basic" va softsynths such as Subtractor can emulate a wide variety of sounds within reasonability where a good programmer will fool the average consumer who isn't probably listening for differences.

That said it is the subtle quirks that most synth enthusiasts are after. And some quirks will become very different when synths get pushed to the limits.

Some synths are just totally different. (Wavetable, VA, FM, Granular)

A FM synth usually operates very different from a typical VA, where it will usually create much different sounds. Some sounds will be very hard or impossible to program on some synths where others will be easy.


Character is another factor as well. While most analogs produce similar sounds, their character distinguish them from another. Some are bright, dark, clean, distorted, punchy, smooth.

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QVprod
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17 Sep 2018

You're right. The same sounds get created even across different synthesis types most of the time. Even FM can be used to make analog(ish) type sounds. There are however sounds that only certain synthesis types can create. Of course there are character differences as with anything, but it's a good reason not to feel the need to buy every synth that gets released, especially if they're the same type of synthesis. The patches are likely to be very similar to the other synths you have, as are possibly the types of sounds you might make with them.

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motuscott
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17 Sep 2018

Unless of course that talking synth is the famous Mr. Ed.

Boy am I dating myself here.
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O1B
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17 Sep 2018

- if by the same token "an EQ is an EQ," then, I object - or, "a filter is a filter" - I strenuously object:


even w/ simple waveforms... they're different

Combi up a bunch of primary waves from different synths and see for yourself if they're the same
- to your ears
- with Audio playing along with it
no filter, knobs, bells, or whistles....

...it's the little differences...

but, only if one cares about such things... it's not some criteria, or anything -
MrFigg wrote:
17 Sep 2018
Right. I’m laying myself open a bit here. Call me a heretic, but I’m really getting caught up in the idea that all synths are pretty much created equal. Additive, subtractive, granular (maybe) and all the other ones in between. Yeah I know some stand out like the old favourite tb-303. It’s just that I’ve got so many in my Rack and a LOT of the pads and the patches and the leads sound just the same as each other. Different filters, knobs, bells and whistles but essentially the same. Again, call me a heretic, and maybe I’m missing something but, well, that’s what’s been in my mind today. :)

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raymondh
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17 Sep 2018

The technical design and specifications of a synth are only part of the story.

The user experience is a big part of what attracts us to a synthesizer. That user experience includes many obvious and some subconscious things.
It's not about saw and square waves on an oscilloscope, it's about all the things that we describe in emotional and subjective terms like "warmth" and "character".
I could spend hours on a DSI Mopho/Prophet 08 trying to get a lush warm pad, without much success. Turn on the Roland System 8 and that character is there immediately.
And the feel of the sliders, all the tactile stuff, all part of the UX.

A bit like two hammers that can equally do the job, but the builder might prefer the one with the bigger head. It's about our individual preferences.
Last edited by raymondh on 17 Sep 2018, edited 2 times in total.

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selig
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17 Sep 2018

I've observed years ago that you can't judge an instrument by it's feature set or it's algorithms, or the number of oscillators or waveforms, or filter types, or LFOs etc. There's also that "x" factor that comes into play, and that's always going to be a personal thing that differs with each user.

Besides the sounds you can create with any one device, it's as important to me how easy it is to interact with that device. Even if I start with a preset, I notice some synths (or reverbs/compressors/EQs) are quicker to work with for me, while some others are more frustrating. Sometimes I want to increase a parameter beyond what it's capable of, sometimes I can't find the specific control that affects the aspect of the sound I want to change, and other times it's just some unexplained uninspiring aspect of an instrument that just makes me want to choose another device.

So when someone asks "why another synth" or whatever, it's not so much that we all need every model ever released. But rather, it's that we're all different, and we want to choose from all available models/colors to create the best personal sound "palette" for our own needs.
:)
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MrFigg
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17 Sep 2018

Juno 106 and a tb-303 and I’m all set...and Antidote :):):)
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TritoneAddiction
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18 Sep 2018

I see what you mean and in some cases I'm willing to agree. There are a lot of similar sounds to be found in many different synths.

But some synths really inspire the whole song writing process and the character of the music, both from the actual sound it produces but also from the GUI/workflow. This is very obvious if you take on the challenge to only use one particular synth for the entire track. Take these 4 songs. There's not a chance in hell that I would be able to switch between them and still come up with the same result or even get similar results. Half of the music comes from the character of the synth itself.
And let's not forget the limitations of a synth also affects the way you create music.





dustmoses
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18 Sep 2018

Subtractive
Additive
Wavetable
FM
Phase modulation
Modular
Physical modeling
Rompler (usually more subtractive in nature)
Might be missing some.

I have a ton, but if I needed to I could get it down to 2-3 subtractive, a wavetable, a rompler, and possibly an FM (Im not good at FM programming but like the sound.) Use reason itself as a modular.

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MrFigg
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18 Sep 2018

motuscott wrote:
17 Sep 2018
Unless of course that talking synth is the famous Mr. Ed.

Boy am I dating myself here.
Of course. Of course.
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scratchnsnifff
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18 Sep 2018

I will say that sometimes the end result will sound similar, but I think it is more so do to the post processing habits that we have
Well I think that a sound, sounding the same can be due to the effects that one places

But I don’t agree in the sense that Thor simply cannot make the same sounding growl patch as something like Europa when using its modifiers


Maybe the end result will sound similar because of the same type of filter sweeps, but when playing a sustained sound. The Europa patch vs Thor will sound different.

Thor simply cannot make or imitate sounds that use phase distortion (or in terms of massive and serum bend + or -)

Malström (as great and powerful as it is)
Also cannot make phase distortion type sounds, for myself this is a huge part of my production. I love how Europa finally lets us make vowel sounds at the oscillator level, the “thick/rubbery” sound of europas phase distort finally brings this to the Reason rack (expanse brought it first and did it similar to massive though)

But at the end of the day, a synth sounds like It’s components. Any character in all of these digital synths, is more than likely based on a developer by developer standard on their own knowledge of dsp coding etc.

Sure many synths can make the same sounds, but it’s when you dig deeper into them that you will find how it varies from the rest of the pack
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Marco Raaphorst
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18 Sep 2018

well there are synth which won't create typical overtones, 2nd 3rd harmonics and so on. these create totally different sounds which have a totally different interaction when using it in combination. different harmonics.

you could say most synths are modal. some are not.

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MrFigg
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18 Sep 2018

Ach...they all sound the same to me. Guitars on the other hand...😂🙃😀
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dvdrtldg
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18 Sep 2018

I get that a lot of synths have a lot of overlap in the sounds you can create. But if your approach is a bit haphazard and experimental like mine, different workflows and GUIs can generate very different results if you start from the ground up. Even tweaking similar sounding patches will give you very different results from one synth to the next

This is why you need at least 30 of them

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motuscott
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19 Sep 2018

30, why hold yourself back. I like to program a synth, get that sound (Reason or otherwise), and then toss that baby in the bin, done, fini, next case...
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selig
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19 Sep 2018

dvdrtldg wrote:
18 Sep 2018
I get that a lot of synths have a lot of overlap in the sounds you can create. But if your approach is a bit haphazard and experimental like mine, different workflows and GUIs can generate very different results if you start from the ground up. Even tweaking similar sounding patches will give you very different results from one synth to the next

This is why you need at least 30 of them
That's one of the great things about Reaktor. On one level, each of the free synths in Reaktor (mostly from other users) is a one trick pony. But if you like that trick, you're in luck!

So instead of treating synths as they are often described in marketing as being able to "make any sound you can imagine", treat them as making one useful sound and use that sound for what it's good for. Then load up the next synth for the one sound it's good at etc.

That's how I get the most milage out of Reaktor, synth wise!
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groggy1
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19 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
19 Sep 2018
dvdrtldg wrote:
18 Sep 2018
I get that a lot of synths have a lot of overlap in the sounds you can create. But if your approach is a bit haphazard and experimental like mine, different workflows and GUIs can generate very different results if you start from the ground up. Even tweaking similar sounding patches will give you very different results from one synth to the next

This is why you need at least 30 of them
That's one of the great things about Reaktor. On one level, each of the free synths in Reaktor (mostly from other users) is a one trick pony. But if you like that trick, you're in luck!

So instead of treating synths as they are often described in marketing as being able to "make any sound you can imagine", treat them as making one useful sound and use that sound for what it's good for. Then load up the next synth for the one sound it's good at etc.

That's how I get the most milage out of Reaktor, synth wise!

There's a whole different angle to this discussion: Many of us are tinkerers, and just want to constantly learn something new (hopefully not instead of making music). I.e. just the challenge of figuring out how to control a synth is fun.

That's why I also love Reaktor - I can CONSTANTLY learn something new, and it's just a one-time investment :)

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dvdrtldg
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19 Sep 2018

Yeah I have to get into Reaktor, one of these days when I've got the time to invest. It plays nicely with Reason, yes?

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sublunar
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20 Sep 2018

Pretty much agree with the OP, yes.

I don't understand a room filled with synths just like I don't understand a room filled with guitars. At a certain point, the returns diminish. The differences become so subtle, you have to be obsessed with the gear itself to even notice the subtle variations. And if you spend that much time obsessing over the gear and their minuscule differences, you're likely not making music. The whole reason I play is to make music, not to obsess over gear, however sexy new gear may be.

So my philosophy is simple: Get a few good quality instruments that you enjoy playing (synths/guitars/whatever) and ditch the ones that gather dust. I got rid of dusty equipment not long ago and I'm glad I did.

I personally feel like I only need about 2 synths. One being a more limited old school type of mono synth. Something raw and dirty and inherently limited. The other being a more modern/flexible/experimental poly synth. Coincidentally, I own 2 physical synths: A minilogue and a Nord Lead. When I don't feel like I"m getting what I need out of one, I go to the other. I don't feel the need to own more (except when I get around to making some DIY modular stuff just for fun).

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MrFigg
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20 Sep 2018

I had 9 guitars at one point including a vintage Fender Newporter, a ‘74 Gibson SG and a Watkins Circuit 4. Now all I’ve got left is a €100 Jazzmaster copy and 3/4 size Bjärton acoustic that my friend found under a bridge. And you know what? I’ve never been happier :)
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groggy1
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20 Sep 2018

dvdrtldg wrote:
19 Sep 2018
Yeah I have to get into Reaktor, one of these days when I've got the time to invest. It plays nicely with Reason, yes?
It works great as a VST in Reason.
The only exception is that you can't use the MIDI-out of Reaktor - but that's a known issue in Reason that MIDI-based VST isn't supported yet

Reminiscence
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20 Sep 2018

Buying a whole host of VSTi's and RE's will definitely make you ask that question.

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Reasonable man
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20 Sep 2018

For gated synth sounds i drag out an fm4 as its the most responsive synth i have...... to matrix or player devices or what have you...the lack of processing effects helps.
Also think when trying to develop a 'sound' the synths you choose become very important for that aspect,
Maybe its just me but In Reason the free RE Little lfo has such a usable sound for what is essentially half a synth. The 4 audio outs make it a characterfull device as well

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