Do you think reason will ever get a better sampler?

This forum is for discussing Reason. Questions, answers, ideas, and opinions... all apply.
EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

I've been looking into abletons sampler/simpler and holy crap there's just so much functionality. The nnxt/nn19 don't even come close and the edit mode doesn't have much either.

Grain sample manipulator is beast in it's own category but it still doesn't have a lot of the functions.

Very excited to see what's coming to reason 11. Anyone have any predictions for reason 11?

User avatar
AzureEyes
Posts: 215
Joined: 23 Aug 2016

Post 27 Jul 2018

No because people cry too much when Propellerhead add new Native Devices!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

User avatar
Zac
Posts: 1746
Joined: 19 May 2016

Post 27 Jul 2018

I don't see why not. Europa and Grain prove that new native devices are still on the cards. I would be surprised if it was a high priority right now as vsts opened up Kontakt etc but maybe as new options open up in that field maybe a props programmer will get inspired and... who knows.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 9018
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 27 Jul 2018

The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

jlgrimes
Posts: 536
Joined: 06 Jun 2017

Post 27 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
1. Graphical Waveform editing built in on front of GUI. Makes it very tweakable.

2. Improved analog modeled filters with distortion.

3. Slice mode.



Those are the 3 biggies and I’m just referring to Simpler.

User avatar
aeox
Posts: 2959
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: mars soon

Post 27 Jul 2018

jlgrimes wrote:
27 Jul 2018
Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
1. Graphical Waveform editing built in on front of GUI. Makes it very tweakable.

2. Improved analog modeled filters with distortion.

3. Slice mode.



Those are the 3 biggies and I’m just referring to Simpler.
I imagine that could be made by a RE dev, right? That'd be cool!

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 9018
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 27 Jul 2018

jlgrimes wrote:
27 Jul 2018
Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
1. Graphical Waveform editing built in on front of GUI. Makes it very tweakable.

2. Improved analog modeled filters with distortion.

3. Slice mode.



Those are the 3 biggies and I’m just referring to Simpler.
This is Grain. You just need multiple instances for the whole keyboard. Well, the slices could be done via envelopes, but a slice mode would be interesting, just like in Octorex. And i agree, the filters could be more interesting in Grain. Also an additional layer/engine could be interesting.

Tbh, a sampler with lots of features would be great, like a Grain in Sampler mode with keyboard zones, layers and everything can be edited per sample. And everything can be edited very quick. Can be done already now, but with lots of Grains and lots of editing...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

User avatar
riemac
Posts: 548
Joined: 21 Jan 2015
Location: Germany

Post 27 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
What is really missing with the Reason samplers is the possibility to modulate or automate the start position of the samples for example with an random LFO. You can do this in Abletons sampler. This is a very nice feature to simulate an analog behavior of an analog oscillator.

There is a very good video for this example (it begins at 36:00):

https://youtu.be/iCdD7SabVb8

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 9018
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 27 Jul 2018

riemac wrote:
27 Jul 2018
Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
What is really missing with the Reason samplers is the possibility to modulate or automate the start position of the samples for example with an random LFO. You can do this in Abletons sampler. This is a very nice feature to simulate an analog behavior of an analog oscillator.

There is a very good video for this example (it begins at 36:00):

https://youtu.be/iCdD7SabVb8
NN19 has a position knob and Grains position, start and end can be controlled.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

jimmyklane
Posts: 738
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
I disagree. I think time stretching in a sampler is a luxury, but I don't negate your point of wanting it in a modern sampler update inside of Reason. However, proper looping, modulations of start point, end point, loop point, loop start/end help make a sampler worth using. in addition, a mod matrix is necessary. I envision the "NN-Xtra" as being a sampler with the flexibility of an Emu Ultra + Ensoniq ASR 10 combined with the ability to degrade and/or enhance the sound in various ways. Real-Time resampling (both sample rate resampling and recording it's own outputs resampling) perhaps some sort of exciter/harmonic generator like the licensed Aphex program in the Emu Ultra series, the ability to load Akai, Roland, Emu, and Ensoniq sound libraries with the programs mostly intact.

These are the types of things that keep me holding on to samplers that are 20 to 30 years old....they STILL do more than the samplers in Reason. I'm of the opinion that PH assumes that none of us sample anymore and that the devices are there only to ensure backwards-compatibility. I may not sample like a hip-hop producer....I'm not sampling records and chopping them up.... however I DO sample 75% of every sound in all of my songs. For the samples that I am taking, every monosynth sound is one single sample taken and played across the entire keyboard, every polysynth sound is a chord sampled onto one key, with the other chords needed in the track sampled into new layers/voices/programs, the drums may be created in the computer....but then they get played back out (through analog processing) into one of my drum machines as new samples and then are recorded back into Reason as both MIDI (for recall and collaborations) and audio to get the specific sound I'm after.

I may be an outlier or atypical user of Reason because I use the virtual rack with a physical rack inextricably linked to create my own unique sound, but I would be willing to consider leaving my samplers alone and creating an album entirely inside the box if I had a sampler that did what I really need it to do. I own a VST sampler called Morgana. It is a really interesting and fun recreation of the Ensoniq Mirage, and while it is not at all an accurate clone, it has a sound to it. I'd like to see PH create a sampler that has the OPTION of having it's own unique sonic imprint instead of a plain-jane sample playback device.
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

jimmyklane
Posts: 738
Joined: 16 Apr 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018

NN19 has a position knob and Grains position, start and end can be controlled.
NN-19's Sample Start knob is what has been making all the trouble in creating a video to continue the "Exploring Reason" series I started back in late May....the knob only travels through the first second or so of sample time, and therefore is useless for anything but short samples. I think it was for back in the day when you might need to trim a drum sample (for example) in order to have it start exactly in time. Now that we have the sample manager in the tool window, along with the editing it allows, that knob is superfluous. It has a lot of creative potential, but it's limited range really hampers that potential.
DAW: Reason 10,

SAMPLERS: Akai MPC 2000, E-mu SP1200, E-Mu e5000Ultra, Ensoniq EPS 16+, Akai S950, Maschine

SYNTHS: Mostly classic Polysynths and more modern Monosynths. All are mostly food for my samplers!

www.soundcloud.com/jimmyklane

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 9018
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 27 Jul 2018

jimmyklane wrote:
27 Jul 2018
Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018

NN19 has a position knob and Grains position, start and end can be controlled.
NN-19's Sample Start knob is what has been making all the trouble in creating a video to continue the "Exploring Reason" series I started back in late May....the knob only travels through the first second or so of sample time, and therefore is useless for anything but short samples. I think it was for back in the day when you might need to trim a drum sample (for example) in order to have it start exactly in time. Now that we have the sample manager in the tool window, along with the editing it allows, that knob is superfluous. It has a lot of creative potential, but it's limited range really hampers that potential.
Not sure about the limitations, but you may be right here. I used it only for creative purposes, where i rather choose Grain today. Always whished i could automate start/end markers in the samplers. In GRain i miss a bit more control over the loop area - even with the envelops it is hard to make the sample loop within a specific area, so i always used a LFO for that. Defenetly something that could be improved in Grain too.

I.g. i expect PH will have a deeper look on audio editing in future releases, since they target more the "bands" and they work a lot with audio and that they are working on it somehow shows the pitch editing, audio to midi bouncing, Grain and Europa sample loading feature. I think PH need to care about audio editing a bit more - also the poll here on Reasontalk showed, that audio editing and using audio clips is more common than some ppl may think. I cross my fingers for better audio clips and sample support in future releases...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

AzureEyes wrote:
27 Jul 2018
No because people cry too much when Propellerhead add new Native Devices!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That's pretty stupid. Why would people not want more toys to play around with?

EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The Samplers in Reason need switchable time stretching, everything else is luxury... Or what do you really need that Abletons Sampler has?
There's just so much that their sampler/simpler have.

There's an envelope section, so you can slice loops and it will apply that envelope to every slice instead of the overall loop. So like a re trigger point.

Then there's the warp section, which does so much... with all kinds of modulation abilities and also a controls section with more modulation.

A whole fm section in the sampler and basically a lot more modulation options.

You really need to check simpler/sampler out and you will see.

EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Also how is "luxury" a good argument against a good sampler? god damn...

EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Zac wrote:
27 Jul 2018
I don't see why not. Europa and Grain prove that new native devices are still on the cards. I would be surprised if it was a high priority right now as vsts opened up Kontakt etc but maybe as new options open up in that field maybe a props programmer will get inspired and... who knows.
I still think it's well wroth it.

Having something that your DAW does better over others is always a good thing, or having something unique could make people be more interested in that DAW.

User avatar
Zac
Posts: 1746
Joined: 19 May 2016

Post 27 Jul 2018

I'm sure it could be wroth it. I just think it's pointless to campaign too vigorously for something you have no control over. Having a say and an opinion is great. Throwing your toys out of the pram when others have a different view, not so much.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 9018
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 27 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
27 Jul 2018
Also how is "luxury" a good argument against a good sampler? god damn...
Thats my opinion. Sorry if it does not fit your opinion and your religion. God damn...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

User avatar
Timmy Crowne
Posts: 283
Joined: 06 Apr 2017
Location: California, United States

Post 27 Jul 2018

If Props stays on the device-releasing trajectory, a new sampler seems incumbent. I just wonder if it'll be part of a Reason update or as a standalone RE purchase, like Umpf or Layers.

sdst
Posts: 873
Joined: 14 Jun 2015

Post 27 Jul 2018

EggplantTown wrote:
27 Jul 2018
AzureEyes wrote:
27 Jul 2018
No because people cry too much when Propellerhead add new Native Devices!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
That's pretty stupid. Why would people not want more toys to play around with?
maybe they want a better sequencer, piano roll, mixer, things that you can't buy in the shop

chaosroyale
Posts: 673
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

Post 27 Jul 2018

The overdue sampler upgrade is one of my bugbears. It could be done without even changing the fundamentals of the NN-XT.

One of the most basic and important features - one that has been common on samplers since the 90's - is a non-destructive loop crossfade with a customizable length (say, from a few milliseconds to 2 seconds). And complete automatable control over the start and end loop points. And of course more CV inputs and automation for the existing parameters.

A better visual sample editor could be completely new instead of shoehorned into NN-XT, opening a new window. As others have said, more filters, an FM knob and more modulation would put it into outer space if they wanted to really make jaws drop, but purely concentrating on the "sampler" part, I think the loops and automation would make a huge difference.

An up-to-date NN-XT would be a badass sampler for people who need something a little lighter than Kontakt. Right now, NN-XT does some heavy lifting in my percussion setup but it is starting to creak and groan, and more and more I look at Kontakt and think it might be time to move.

User avatar
Timmy Crowne
Posts: 283
Joined: 06 Apr 2017
Location: California, United States

Post 27 Jul 2018

chaosroyale wrote:
27 Jul 2018
The overdue sampler upgrade is one of my bugbears. It could be done without even changing the fundamentals of the NN-XT.

One of the most basic and important features - one that has been common on samplers since the 90's - is a non-destructive loop crossfade with a customizable length (say, from a few milliseconds to 2 seconds). And complete automatable control over the start and end loop points. And of course more CV inputs and automation for the existing parameters.

A better visual sample editor could be completely new instead of shoehorned into NN-XT, opening a new window. As others have said, more filters, an FM knob and more modulation would put it into outer space if they wanted to really make jaws drop, but purely concentrating on the "sampler" part, I think the loops and automation would make a huge difference.

An up-to-date NN-XT would be a badass sampler for people who need something a little lighter than Kontakt. Right now, NN-XT does some heavy lifting in my percussion setup but it is starting to creak and groan, and more and more I look at Kontakt and think it might be time to move.
+1000 times this.

An additional idea would be to allow the new NNXT to "read" each sample and re-synthesize it similar to how Europa does with the harmonic modulation section, especially the "Random Gain" setting. That would allow each time a sample is triggered to sound different. No more machine guns, even with only one sample!

EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Zac wrote:
27 Jul 2018
I'm sure it could be wroth it. I just think it's pointless to campaign too vigorously for something you have no control over. Having a say and an opinion is great. Throwing your toys out of the pram when others have a different view, not so much.
Well I was just asking what people think, not really being vigorous.

It's not like adding a good sampler would do anything bad, I don't see how I'm the unreasonable one here.

EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Loque wrote:
27 Jul 2018
EggplantTown wrote:
27 Jul 2018
Also how is "luxury" a good argument against a good sampler? god damn...
Thats my opinion. Sorry if it does not fit your opinion and your religion. God damn...
So do you think reason should stop being updated? because everything else is just luxury. We pretty much have everything we need to produce good music.

and what does religion have to do with anything?

EggplantTown
Posts: 49
Joined: 19 Jul 2018

Post 27 Jul 2018

Timmy Crowne wrote:
27 Jul 2018
If Props stays on the device-releasing trajectory, a new sampler seems incumbent. I just wonder if it'll be part of a Reason update or as a standalone RE purchase, like Umpf or Layers.
I hope they do :P

I think they should make a good sampler as part of a reason update. I mean the nnxt and nn19 are kind of disappointing for sampling.

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], prefab sprout, whyisitalwaysme and 2 guests